[toodles]

Thats stupid, are you seriously claiming the DW link bike makes sam 5 seconds faster?? That means Fabien Barel is a better rider then Sam Hill seeing he only won by 0.64 seconds. All this pushing of the DW link and you only won by 0.64 seconds over a Kona with single pivot pro squat technology.........

Dude, you cannot be serious. He didn't claim it makes him 5 seconds faster, just that the outcome was that on one track once.

FFS, listening to you ladies squabble is embarrassing. I know one-eyed fanboys are silly, but one-eyed haters are sillier still. Ride the fricken bike and decide for yourselves!

TBH, no bike is ever perfect for every rider. Different horses for different courses (and in this case riders). Quit wasting your time arguing over which is better when you may as well be arguing between blue and red.

 

[norbar]

if suspension design doesn't matter how come you dont see any low pivot bikes [...] wining world cups? maybe those type of bikes didn't have enough money to sponsor a big name rider. but i think that there are certain criteria that suspension designs have to conform to to be suited for dh racing.

Well Athertons are in the Commencal team and it doesn't look like there are behind their previous results with giant.

 

[dhkid]

Well Athertons are in the Commencal team and it doesn't look like there are behind their previous results with giant.

if you are referring to the old giant dh team being a low pivot bike, its not, the commencal has a similar pivot location.

 

[norbar]

The commencal is a low pivot not the giant(and I was comparing it to new glory maestro)

 

[dhkid]

oh, i am used to referring to that as a high pivot. ie, like how all the orange 22x bikes are high forward pivots. someone correct me if i am wrong?

 

[dw]

I'm not knocking you by any means and I think you have a great design, but if what your claim is true lets see the full stats. Was it on the same rear shock, fork, tires, wheels, brakes, cranks..etc. (not to mention conditions on the track)? You need to back your claim up with a side by side comparison....to just say he gained five seconds is a claim with no backup. Being an engineer I won't be satisified with claims, only with hard facts.

Yes, same day, same components, within an hour of each other both after noon. They did race runs on their SGS's (Sam won the Aussie champs that day over Rennie on his first day riding his V10.) They took the new bikes out for a test ride on the track and those were the results.

 

[pelo]

oh, i am used to referring to that as a high pivot. ie, like how all the orange 22x bikes are high forward pivots. someone correct me if i am wrong?

Me to. Pivot location to bb. Futher up would be high pivot to me.

 

[dw]

The DW-link can run little lowspeedcomp which often is critical to carry speed in the rough. A horst-link shouldn´t be any worse with the same shocktune, but might insted then be a worse pedaler? Is that what made the Sunday faster, DW?

You have it exactly correct. Leverage rates are also a bit more optimized with a dw-link than a Horst Link, there is only so much you can do with the Horst design, but the dw-link's position sensitive anti-squat is the key to the traction advantage, on and off power. This is why I predict that you will see supercross bikes running dw-links brother technology Orion in 5 years. Its well on the way to happening. Traction is what allows someone like Sam Hill to go faster. A guy like that can take advantage of every little millisecond of advantage that the traction affords him. That extra traction is also what lets a rider like me keep it on 2 wheels when I'm semi out of control and on an off camber trail at full bore. Look at Formula One and other forms of racing, its all the same game, reliability, traction, power, in that order of importance.

I don't fault riders for being skeptical about what is said and marketed about bicycle suspensions. So many parties out there are just plain full of ****. They make up wild claims to support designs that they don't even understand. They confuse riders, and brainwash them with what pretty much amount to lies in the face of physics. Just the other day I read a ridiculous statement by Trek about how braking forces work in a bike. Specialized has been claiming for years that the FSR has a vertical axle path. Not only is that impossible for the horst linkage layout, it would be useless anyways! The now defunct S-shaped axle paths, Instant centers on the chainline, come on. So much of this stuff is at odds with physics its insane.

I don't blame any rider for being skeptical. I say go ride some bikes, set them up for your style, get comfortable and make the decision for yourself. Heck, my skepticism drove me to spend years working on developing what became dw-link.

 

[seth505]

Thats stupid, are you seriously claiming the DW link bike makes sam 5 seconds faster?? That means Fabien Barel is a better rider then Sam Hill seeing he only won by 0.64 seconds. All this pushing of the DW link and you only won by 0.64 seconds over a Kona with single pivot pro squat technology.........

are you nuts? He was talking about the day the Sunday was FIRST RIDDEN, not the last world cup race. Saying Sam was 5 seconds faster that day is not implying that it made him 5 seconds faster on every ride he goes on the for the rest of his life (while riding a Sunday).

 

[sayndesyn]

pshhhhhhh.... biased..

Suspension is one of the most important parts if not the most important part of any high performance vehicle design. A smartly engineered and well tuned suspension will be beneficial at any level of racing. A poorly designed or tuned suspension will be a detriment at any level of racing.

 

[Cave Dweller]

are you nuts? He was talking about the day the Sunday was FIRST RIDDEN, not the last world cup race. Saying Sam was 5 seconds faster that day is not implying that it made him 5 seconds faster on every ride he goes on the for the rest of his life (while riding a Sunday).

Calm down fanboys, sit back down and take some deep breaths before you hyperventilate.

The point was, as was picked up by others, the claim that riding the bike will automatically make you faster is hard to verify, besides by taking the word of someone who designed it and has a commercial interest in it. Nothing wrong with that, but excuse my skepticism.....

 

[seth505]

wow..if someone uses the word fanboy/sam hill/iron horse in another thread, this website should be burned down. *edit*>Skepticism is fine, I was just pointing out that saying you are 5 seconds on different equipment on the same day/same conditions is relevant, while saying you will pick up 5 seconds on every trail is rediculous.

If you want to not believe that Sam was 5 seconds faster that day in the same conditions then that is fine. There is no reason that you need to take someones word on that. I just tend to go on peoples credibility, which Dave has. If a new company/designer comes on the scene then I am as skeptical as the next guy, then if they prove themselves time and time again then that tends to go away. As much as people love to hate on the sam hill/fanboy crap, its easy to admit that DW (dave) has made major contributions to improving bicycle design/parts design. So if people want to continue to hate on making good products that a favorite rider happens to ride for now then that is fine too. I ride a Kumicho for dh so I'm not sure i qualify for a fanboy?? Also, I have never bought any Troy Lee gear that I can remember.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

 

[Greyhound]

I'll take Sanjay on a hardtail for $500, Alex.

 

[bdamschen]

Here's something I have a problem with, and maybe I'm just missing something and you guys can help me out.

Everyone says to go ride this bike or that bike to understand how great it is or if it's right for you. Where the heck am I going to do this?

Obviously I could go right down to local trek or spesh or IH or whatever dealer, and sit on the bike, probably not setup for my weight (210 lbs) or ride it around the parking lot with such insane obstacles as the concrete tire stopper, the planter with the tree in it and of course, the ever impressive curb. But in all honesty, that's not going to tell me jack.

I could also go out to my local lift assisted park (there's only two in california that I know of, three if you count kirkwood) and ride one of their beat to heck, squeaky brake poorly shifting, blown shock rental bikes. Even then, in california, I could either ride a rocky mountain switch or giant pistol(wtf?) from Mammoth, or a Giant Faith, Reign or if I'm lucky one of the three Giant glory dh's from Northstar. If I look real hard I could also find a new SC bullit (but not with a totem) to ride.

Lastly, maybe I could get lucky and a demo day could come to one of my local shops (local as in 1 hr. drive from monterey as there are never demo days at my true local shops). These demo days happen maybe 2 or 3 times a year, usually not when I'm in the market for bikes, on trails I never normally ride (more xcish) and involving bikes I don't normally ride (the most gravity oriented I can usually find is a 5 inch travel all mountain bike with a 120mm stem).

So my question to everyone who says I should go ride a bike to try it is: How the heck do I do this? DW- I would love to try a sunday, but there's not a shop within 1 hrs drive that I could even sit on a sunday at.

So if I ever do make a decision to buy a sunday, I have to rely on what people on a message board tell me is good and then hope I'm like the masses when I buy a bike or just stick to what my local shops carry in stock(cause there's no way they'll order a bike without a commitment from me that I will buy it).

Any help/suggestions are welcome.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

What do you want to try riding? I'm in SC, help you if I can.

 

[Dogboy]

Any help/suggestions are welcome.

Friends. Among the people I ride with on a regular basis there is a Sunday, Socom, V10, Demo 8, Glory, M3, 303, Yakuza Kumicho, Faith, VP Free, Uzzi, and probably a couple I can't recall. We take day/weekend trips to various lift-assisted trails and can swap bikes if we want to try something else out. Bear in mind that I live in NC and the closest lift is about 3 hours away, so it is doable. Races are another option. I know people there may be less likely to let a stranger take their bike for a run, but it doesn't hurt to ask. We DHr's are a small community and getting to know other riders is pretty easy.

 

[bdamschen]

Thanks for the help out guys. It's about time to get my girlfriend a new dh frame and I just started noticing how hard it is to get her on some different bikes to ride and see what she likes.

Friends are good, but if you're not all the same size (my girl is smaller than most of my friends), borrowing people's doesn't really work out. That and most of my friends don't ride the latest and greatest stuff, so I would be hard pressed to find someone with a 303 or a socom for example.

It seems to me there's gotta be a better way for companies to get you to try out their bikes when personal preference seems to play such a major role in the industry.

 

[seth505]

ya, thats probably espeically hard with a girl/small frame. Those are hard to come by even at races.

 

[Homey]

This is why I predict that you will see supercross bikes running dw-links brother technology Orion in 5 years. Its well on the way to happening.

Can you provide a link to the Orion link technology? I checked your site but found no info on it. It's something I would like to research a little more.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Thanks for the help out guys. It's about time to get my girlfriend a new dh frame and I just started noticing how hard it is to get her on some different bikes to ride and see what she likes.

Friends are good, but if you're not all the same size (my girl is smaller than most of my friends), borrowing people's doesn't really work out. That and most of my friends don't ride the latest and greatest stuff, so I would be hard pressed to find someone with a 303 or a socom for example.

It seems to me there's gotta be a better way for companies to get you to try out their bikes when personal preference seems to play such a major role in the industry.

Well, what do you want to test? Can help you if you don't ask.

 

[Homey]

Can you provide a link to the Orion link technology? I checked your site but found no info on it. It's something I would like to research a little more.

Sorry, just found the other thread on Orion...so the answer is no...it's top secret.

I'm guessing KTM, Buel or BMW is looking for that technology in SX. Good luck in that venture!

 

[ohio]

Suspension is one of the most important parts if not the most important part of any high performance vehicle design.

Just to prod the beast (it's been awhile since I've played around on the boards...), I'm going to ask you to elaborate on what you mean by "one of..." since I can thing of a few items that I think of as more important in speed and control than suspension format:
1) Geometry (especially head angle, trail, and bottom bracket height)
2) Suspension valving (both sophistication and tuning for the rider, course, and compression curve)
3) Compression curve (rear only obviously)
4) Tire choice and pressure
and
5) Lateral and torsional frame stiffness

#5 is where it gets a bit grey for me, and I think suspension format could be more critical, as I think most frames on the market are pretty stiff these days.

I'll ignore build quality/durability/maintenance as although those are super important criteria for my purchases, it's not about race day performance on a new frame. This also all assumes you're smart enough to put the right springs in your fork and shock.

 

[ÆX]

Just to prod the beast (it's been awhile since I've played around on the boards...), I'm going to ask you to elaborate on what you mean by "one of..." since I can thing of a few items that I think of as more important in speed and control than suspension format:
1) Geometry (especially head angle, trail, and bottom bracket height)
2) Suspension valving (both sophistication and tuning for the rider, course, and compression curve)
3) Compression curve (rear only obviously)
4) Tire choice and pressure
and
5) Lateral and torsional frame stiffness

#5 is where it gets a bit grey for me, and I think suspension format could be more critical, as I think most frames on the market are pretty stiff these days.

I'll ignore build quality/durability/maintenance as although those are super important criteria for my purchases, it's not about race day performance on a new frame. This also all assumes you're smart enough to put the right springs in your fork and shock.

and even more now,...

#6 wheel diameter
#7 inboard drive to lighten unsprung weight.

those are my top two criteria, then

rear wheel path, stiffness and weight.

 

[erikkellison]

I would definitely say "yes" to the OP. Suspension design is very important, and assuming the bike is tuned properly in other aspects, ceteris paribus, the bike with the better linkage will be faster and/or easier to ride. What constitutes better? That depends on what you're doing. For DH, I would say that a bike that pedals well while being sensitive to small bumps, ramps up nicely for big hits but doesn't bog down in the travel on the rough stuff (stays lively) are all factors. A single pivot will suck at these things, but gains an advantage because it is lighter, and thus easier to pedal and manipulate, despite its relatively poor design. A VPP, DW or 303'ish bike will do the aforementioned things better, but will weigh more and possibly be less flickable, which will result in better perforance when you need suspension (the rough stuff), and will pedal better through the bumps, but the added weigh will serve as a detriment that might or might not ruin it's technological advantage. It is physically impossible for some designs to overcome brake jack and/or pedal jack, but those deficient designs can make up for it in other ways.
Some people here would have you believe that the lesser designs are as good as the more advanced designs, and while they may be as fast for other reasons, they are physically incapable of absorbing bumps and eliminating unwanted suspension influences as the superior designs.
I hope this makes it clear why some people are saying that suspension design doesn't matter, and how they are missing the point when they simply point to results. If one can make a VPP that has the same geo, weigh distribution and weight as a single pivot, the VPP will clearly be better. Will this matter? Maybe. While some pros can do nearly as well on one frame as another, there are situations where it makes a huge difference. I can ride a heck of a lot faster on my Nomad than I can on a Bullit, both uphill and down, in all situations. But if I was racing, I would still get smoked by a pro on a Kona or SP bike. Does that mean that the SP or Faux-bar is better? No, it just means that the pro is able to overcome the deficiencies of the design more than I am able to take advantage of the superior engineering. But the bottom thing is, all else equal, suspension design does matter quite a bit. And if all else isn't equal, then it's not a fair test. So yes, hard facts and hard rider-tests are difficult to come by. That is why we look at it from a mathematical point of view. The VPP will be better over bumps while braking and pedaling than the SP or Faux-bar. By how much? We need a Ping Man for bikes so we can have reliable testing. And on the golf note, yes, those clubs hit the ball marginally better. Will this make a difference for the average hacker? Probably not, they need to learn to swing properly first. But on average, the new club will do better. Maybe only by 1%, but hey, that's progress, even if it is slow. Is it worth $500? Not to me, but to some old far with too much money and a complex? You betcha.
I guess the rule should be to buy what you can afford, and keep in mind that suspension design is important, but so are a number of other things. That being said, I spent more money on my rear suspension than any other part of my bike, by far.

 

[liquidsystm]

believe me dw, that if the prices on the sunday wc came down, i would definitely be riding one.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

and even more now,...

#6 wheel diameter
#7 inboard drive to lighten unsprung weight.

those are my top two criteria, then

rear wheel path, stiffness and weight.

Yep, wheel diameter is a huge concern these days in DH.

Or wait, I guess only for you. And absolutely nobody else

 

[ÆX]

Yep, wheel diameter is a huge concern these days in DH.

Or wait, I guess only for you. And absolutely nobody else

just you wait. it will be for everyone in the next couple of years.

 

[Dogboy]

just you wait. it will be for everyone in the next couple of years.

I guess I'll have to eat crow in a couple of years, because I just don't see it either. The 29" wheel seems like the solution to a problem that doesn't exist. All I see is: it limits geometry, travel, and suspension layout. I have a lot of respect for your innovation Alex, but I just don't see wheel size as anywhere near the top of priorities.

 

[ÆX]

I guess I'll have to eat crow in a couple of years, because I just don't see it either. The 29" wheel seems like the solution to a problem that doesn't exist. All I see is: it limits geometry, travel, and suspension layout. I have a lot of respect for your innovation Alex, but I just don't see wheel size as anywhere near the top of priorities.

i know i can't exspress how they ride as compaired to those small wheels with text. you just have to drink the koolade...........

 

[xy9ine]

i can see larger wheels being potentially advantageous in some dh scenarios (if not 29er's maybe 650c). compare riding 24's to 26's and you get the idea. maybe not optimum for all riders & courses, but they may have a place in the arsenal in the future (teams could be rocking both, with course specific wheel diameter selection going on).

i'd be interested to see a correlation between wheel diameter & suspension travel in regards to bump absorption. ie, is a 29'er with 7" travel ~equivalent to a 26'er with 8"?

 

[ÆX]

i can see larger wheels being potentially advantageous in some dh scenarios (if not 29er's maybe 650c). compare riding 24's to 26's and you get the idea. maybe not optimum for all riders & courses, but they may have a place in the arsenal in the future (teams could be rocking both, with course specific wheel diameter selection going on).

i'd be interested to see a correlation between wheel diameter & suspension travel in regards to bump absorption. ie, is a 29'er with 7" travel ~equivalent to a 26'er with 8"?

yeah, i am not saying they will take over but in the future, they will be there on dh bikes.

with 6'' and 29ers, it felt like 7'' 26. i bit ruff. i uped my front to 7''
now i need a back match to really feel them together. my rear is
@ a min of 5.75 this year and i was getting bucked a bit.

 

[willie b]

Friends. Among the people I ride with on a regular basis there is a Sunday, Socom, V10, Demo 8, Glory, M3, 303, Yakuza Kumicho, Faith, VP Free, Uzzi, and probably a couple I can't recall. We take day/weekend trips to various lift-assisted trails and can swap bikes if we want to try something else out. Bear in mind that I live in NC and the closest lift is about 3 hours away, so it is doable. Races are another option. I know people there may be less likely to let a stranger take their bike for a run, but it doesn't hurt to ask. We DHr's are a small community and getting to know other riders is pretty easy.

You forgot my Straight 6!

 

[EM-EFER]

Geometry is really the deciding factor for most expert / pro riders.

The frames the worldcup guys are rocking is 100% custom to the riders style and the feel they are looking for on the bike. Suspension is also 100% different from what Joe Shmoe will get as internals on front or rear shocks.

You can call people sam hill fan boys all you want if they ride an ironhorse, but you honestly sound dumb. The DW link is great for any type of riding and the geometry of the Sunday helps the bike to feel very nimble. It's an all around a great bike. (I ride a foes so you can't call me a fanboy)

The Maestro is very similar to the DW but the Maestro is setup to set more into travel and slack the headtube out. The geo is a tad different as well and doesn't feel as nimble as the Sunday but feels great at speed.

Overall, just get the bike you feel most comfortable on and forget about the suspension design. You can tune pretty much any shock to do what you want specifically to your riding style.

 

[jonKranked]

original question.... yes and no. depends on the rider and their style. Some people will do good on one bike and not another. Then there are riders who are so good that they could ride an inflatable alligator with wheels and still pin it.

 

[Jm_]

What's the point of a DH/long travel type bike with 29er wheels? These types of bikes already turn sluggish enough without 29er wheels.

 

[binary visions]

Personally, I'm going back to a URT.

 

[syadasti]

Then there are riders who are so good that they could ride an inflatable alligator with wheels and still pin it.

:biggrin:

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Then there are riders who are so good that they could ride an inflatable alligator with wheels and still pin it.

This man rode his alligator too hard.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Personally, I'm going back to a URT.

I hope it has internet access, like this one.