double butted v's straight guage spokes ?
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Like Stevie Wonder flying a plane.
The only plastic on the TM-1 is on the grips and pointer washers, perhaps you used an earlier model. I know it is not accurate down to 1Kfg, but it gets the job done. For me, the most important thing is getting the spoke tension even. I know the tension is good when the nipples start to round.
Since a tensiometer works measuring the deflection it should work on most any kind of spoke, i.e. bladed, butted, or straight gauge. Maybe some small variance, but using bare hands is not any more accurate.
OK... I would get the DT Swiss or Hozan tensiometers but they cost some serious coin.
The TM-1 is about $60... c'mon, don't hurt to use it.
Since a tensiometer works measuring the deflection it should work on most any kind of spoke, i.e. bladed, butted, or straight gauge. Maybe some small variance, but using bare hands is not any more accurate.
OK... I would get the DT Swiss or Hozan tensiometers but they cost some serious coin.
The TM-1 is about $60... c'mon, don't hurt to use it.
That or like when you get up at 2:45am to take a piss with the lights off.............Nothing but rim & floorLike Stevie Wonder flying a plane.
Not possible according to Jobst to over tension a spoke on a conventional nipple/elbow 3x build, the nipples would fail way way before the spoke would be over tensioned. For instance most low spoke wheels take advantage of this by using a system that allows for a much higher spoke tension (ie straight pull). The reason he is breaking spokes is due to fatiging them (ie the elbows cycle on every impact) due to uneven or low spoke tension or something like that, not over tension.
Prolock or spoke freeze really helps. Also, preventing the wind up during truing or building. A good trick is to use a piece of masking tape on the spoke to detect any movement.
Low tension is more likely to break spokes than over tension. As said earlier, spokes tend to break at the elbow. During the millions of load changes, if there is wiggle room it causes the material at the elbow to weaken..... then snap.
If you get caught up in the details, from an engineering standpoint it can be argued that DB spokes build a more accurate, well tensioned wheel that will ultimately be stronger.
Many wheelbuilding texts/books wil attest to this.
Kidwoo's practical experience matches mine and most however; I have popped DB spokes - repeatedly, and not straigt guage (unless I taco'd a wheel - which is ALWAYS the riders fault!!! Unless you had crappy tension - but then - OH - thats your fault too! lol)
Primary resource is Probst. (3rd ed)
Many wheelbuilding texts/books wil attest to this.
Kidwoo's practical experience matches mine and most however; I have popped DB spokes - repeatedly, and not straigt guage (unless I taco'd a wheel - which is ALWAYS the riders fault!!! Unless you had crappy tension - but then - OH - thats your fault too! lol)
Primary resource is Probst. (3rd ed)
I don't have time to read the whole thread but I'm going to call BS on this.
Granted, if DB spokes are cold drawn and SG spokes aren't, there may be some increase in strength. However, I highly suspect that SG spokes are also cold drawn.
When the spoke transitions from 2.0 to 1.8, there is a stress riser. Even if it is a fairly smooth blend, it still concentrates the stress.
I have broken many spokes on DH wheels at this transition.
And then there is the less material thing
You could also argue that since the spoke has less material and is stretching more (same elasticity) that it is going though more fatigue cycles and will fail sooner.
That's exactly why DB spokes build a stronger wheel in theory . They relieve stress from the elbows and threads by flexing in the middle and dispersing the load over more spokes. Remember fatigue cycles at the elbow and threads are what cause hey majority of failures.
Also ( I might be wrong here) but If you stay within the elastic region of material fatigue doesn't come into play anyways.
If you're breaking spokes at the elbow, you're hub/spoke interface is possibly messed up (as in not tight enough). If this isn't due to poor tension, go to an OLD wheelbuilder, and see about geting some washers to take up some of the space. These washers are uncommon, so they may take some tracking down.
Or, replace your spokes with DT Alpines. You have to check that they'll work in the hub first. They're thick at the head.
I think that the double butted spoke advantage is reduced when using disc brakes, but what do I know...
I also think that straight 14's are a bit easier to build up, especially if you're doing your own wheels and/or you're not a master wheelbuilder.
Or, replace your spokes with DT Alpines. You have to check that they'll work in the hub first. They're thick at the head.
I think that the double butted spoke advantage is reduced when using disc brakes, but what do I know...
I also think that straight 14's are a bit easier to build up, especially if you're doing your own wheels and/or you're not a master wheelbuilder.
Yeah I think I should of said DB build a wheel less prone to spoke failure, than a stronger wheel.
Even though (like I said earlier) I honestly can't even remember the last time I broke a spoke, I swear the wheels are stiffer with SG. For all the blabbing we put into stiff frames and forks, what good is a wheel that's made to flex?
Much less with no damper on that flex
Cause they are! http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htmEven though (like I said earlier) I honestly can't even remember the last time I broke a spoke, I swear the wheels are stiffer with SG. For all the blabbing we put into stiff frames and forks, what good is a wheel that's made to flex?
Much less with no damper on that flex
7. How does spoke gauge affect stiffness?
Thicker spokes make a wheel stiffer, if all else is equal. A typical 32 spoke wheel built with 2.0mm spokes is about 11% stiffer than a similar wheel built with 2.0-1.45mm swaged spokes.
Compare the deflection of two wheels: numbers 39 and 47. Wheel 39 is built with 2.0-1.45mm swaged spokes, but wheel 47 is built with 2.0mm straight gauge spokes. Hub dimensions are effectively identical, spoke count is the same and the rims are the same make and model, so the only structural difference is the spoke gauge.
Result? The wheel with thinner spokes deflected 0.051" (1.30mm) in font and 0.067"1.70mm) in the rear, but the wheel with thicker spokes deflected less: only 0.046" (1.17mm) and 0.055" (1.40mm) for front and rear, respectively. That's an 11% increase in stiffness for the thicker spoked wheels.
Interestingly, wheel stiffness depends on more than just spoke thickness; the rim and other factors also contribute, so only part of the increase in raw spoke stiffness shows up in measured wheel stiffness. The thicker spoke by itself is nearly twice as stiff axially as the thinner spoke!
that's why I swore
I pretty much know everything except for how to please a woman
Hey is team speed (metal) dh riding the turners next year?
Tell oly I said he needs to get off his ass and meet me in post canyon this spring
I pretty much know everything except for how to please a woman
Hey is team speed (metal) dh riding the turners next year?
Tell oly I said he needs to get off his ass and meet me in post canyon this spring
None of the wheel literature out there delves in to the fact that we routinely land on the ground with our 8' hydro stoppers locked, 8" of travel, and 2.5" of sticky rubber trying to disengage our wheels from our 12-20 mm thru axle drop outs. Most of these tests and wheel theories were developed, and conducted when touring was considered the most abusive form of riding with respect to wheels.
Looks like it. I will he's quite the dad now days though.....Let me introduce you to my friend Jimmy!that's why I swore
I pretty much know everything except for how to please a woman
Hey is team speed (metal) dh riding the turners next year?
Tell oly I said he needs to get off his ass and meet me in post canyon this spring
We've got a group down here trying to get a bike park started so we need another trip to post canyon for some.....uh......structure research.
I've only been there once but it would be cool to meet up with some of you guys that know the place better. I wanted to move there after my first ride.
You guys should post some thoughts on the new dhrs when you get them. I'm curious to see how much the little changes in geometry show.
And thanks for the touring bike perspective on the wheel building. Somebody had to say it
I've only been there once but it would be cool to meet up with some of you guys that know the place better. I wanted to move there after my first ride.
You guys should post some thoughts on the new dhrs when you get them. I'm curious to see how much the little changes in geometry show.
And thanks for the touring bike perspective on the wheel building. Somebody had to say it
Not quite true...
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
From "A Practical Guide to Wheel Building 3.0"...
"So whats special about building a downhill wheel? Actually nothing at all, I build all wheels exactly the same way whether they are for downhill racing or road time trialling." - Roger Musson
The author actually discusses "downhill" wheels to some extent and shares his experience on the matter, from building wheels for racers. In short, the component selection is important but approach is the same as other MTB disc-wheels. Overall, I find this book to be a good reference.
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
From "A Practical Guide to Wheel Building 3.0"...
"So whats special about building a downhill wheel? Actually nothing at all, I build all wheels exactly the same way whether they are for downhill racing or road time trialling." - Roger Musson
The author actually discusses "downhill" wheels to some extent and shares his experience on the matter, from building wheels for racers. In short, the component selection is important but approach is the same as other MTB disc-wheels. Overall, I find this book to be a good reference.
Isn't a DT Revolution a 2.0/1.5 or 1.8/1.5 spoke?
If so, 11% difference between a Revolution and a straight guage 2.0mm doesn't seem like much to me.
here is a good write up on what is the real problem with wheel stiffness.
dished wheels are the devil!
narrow hub flange widths have WAY more impact in wheel stiffness then spoke DIA!
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=190125&highlight=ugly+truth
dished wheels are the devil!
narrow hub flange widths have WAY more impact in wheel stiffness then spoke DIA!
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=190125&highlight=ugly+truth