[Banshee Rider]

Christmas came a few weeks late for me, but the wait is finally over. Yesterday, my thirty-two gold spokes arrived from Industry Nine to liven up my going-on-three-season-old wheelset. Originally my race wheels for DH, I re-laced them to new Stans Flow rims, and did opposing sides of the front and rear wheel with gold spokes. That’s great and all, but today the item I’ve really been waiting for finally showed up: Hammerschmidt.

As you can tell from the photos, I’m balls deep in snow right now. (literally) With my spare time I felt compelled to make this post for those who were curious about Hammerschmidt. I wanted to provide some real numbers using our digital scale at the shop for those who are skeptical following what’s online. In addition, I figured I would post my first impressions on the installation and vigarous indoor test process (superior to the parking lot test. ) Since there isn’t much actual first hand posting going on at the moment, I am posting this on several forums that I frequent. If some of you visit all those forums, then I’m sorry you have to see this thread more than once.

Installation: I was very careful when reading the directions. I even followed every torque spec, which I’m notorious for skipping with common-sense installs. The drawn out process took me roughly two hours from start to finish, but I’m confident I could have completed it in 25 minutes or less if done a second time. The directions were very informative and removed any second-guessing.

First Shift: I was completely stoked on the first shift. The mech is as quick, smooth, and non-dependent as the advertisment suggests. Stop pedaling, pedal backwards, under load, the mech shifts instantly. As a rider who spends more time in the saddle than on the chairlift, I’m super excited for the snow to clear so I can experience it on dirt. My co-worker who was skeptical at first, was equally blown away in person. It lived up to its expectations, and for that, I couldn’t be happier.

Food for thought: I am as avid of a supporter of Industry Nine as I am SRAM. I’ve used hubs from Hadley, Chris King, and DT Swiss, and I can distinctly feel the difference in engagement on dirt with Industry Nine hubs. Do not turn this into an Industry Nine debate, my reason for bringing it up is this: Hammerschmidt uses three pawls, like a hub, that retract when the shifter is pressed. This is how Hammerschmidt acheieves its instantaneous shifting. However, with those pawls, the mechanism now also has engagment points, like a hub. I personally never considered this, the thought never crossed my mind. You can see where I am going with this; The Hammerschmidt, in essence, cancels out the 120 points of engagment from my Industry Nine hub. For those of you who can’t tell the difference, or have never owned a quick engagment hub, no problem. However, for the rest of you who can, its food for thought that has yet to be talked about online.

Weights: Let me start by saying I run 1x9 on my cross country and all mountain bike. I don’t do front derailleurs, not because I’m too macho for them, but because I hate dropping chains and slow shifting. Hammerschmidt elimated those downsides, and provided the benefits of a wide range of gears. I knew instantly that I wanted to purchase this product, because although it’s made me strong, climbing a 1x9 up the mountain every ride gets tiring. The reason I say this is because my previous drivetrain was 1x9, and obviously lighter than a 2x9 set up. My bike gained just under 1.5lbs, which I can live with. The information I provided below is to the best of my ability, and may vary by case (I weighed a new front derailleur, and 2x9 crank set up since mine was 1x9 with a chainguide). Anyway, enough talk, here are the weights.

Hammerschmit Non-Drive Arm 170mm: 235g
Hammerschmit Drive Arm + Mech170mm: 880g
Hammerschmit Collar/CG assembly: 221g
Hammerschmit BB only 68/73mm: 297g
Hammerschmidt X9 Shifter:129g
Shifter housing: 32g
PC971 chain (to length): 266g

Total: 2060g

Truvativ Stylo 2:2 175mm with Aluminum bashring + no BB: 828g
Truvativ Stylo X-type BB only 68/73mm: 117g
X9 Front Shifter: 129g
Cheap Deore Front Derailleur: 142g
PC971 chain (to length): 288g
Housing: 32g

Total: 1536g

Difference: 524g or 1.15lbs

SRAM got a much smaller number, and on paper, it appears to be correct. Its all relative to what parts you consider comparable. I’m not here to split hairs over that. I personally run Stylos on my AM bike, and would consider them a comparable option to Hammerschmidt AM. If you would only run Holzfellers for the same purpose, then you would get a better (smaller) number. I consider the weight justifiable for the performance gained when it takes the edge of climbs without dropping chains and slow dependent shifting.

Enough nerd talk. Here are some pictures of my bike, and some specs. Enjoy.

2009 Giant Reign X frameset, Medium
Fox DHX Air 4.0 (Monarch shortly)
Rock Shox Lyrik Solo Air
Industry Nine wheelset, DH Spokes, Stans ZTR Flow rims
Truvativ Hammerschmidt AM crankset, 170mm
Truvativ Hammerschmidt M15 AM BB, 68/73mm
Truvativ Hammerschmidt X9 Trigger shifter
Truvativ Holzefeller Stem, 60mm
Avid Juicy 7 brakes, 203mm f/r
SRAM X9 Rear Shifter
SRAM X9 Rear Derailleur, medium cage
SRAM PG990 cassette, 11-32T
SRAM PC971 Chain
Sunline Vone 29” bar
Thomson Elite seatpost
WTB Devo saddle
Maxxis Ardent 2.25 tires f/r
Time Atac pedals
Sunline grips
Completely shimano, and soon to be fox, free.
32.9lbs

Mandatory anticipation building shot, for those who didn’t scroll down




Wheelset




Complete build




I got crafty with cable routing and drilled into the fender. Super clean and out of the way of the piggyback.


Looking straight down

 

[bikerpunk98199]

Bike looks killer man! I got to ride the hammerschmidt around a little bit and it is amazing. If i was building an AM bike I would put that on it.

How tall are you/ how does the sizing feel on the reign?

 

[Ksquaredracing]

I just built an Intense SS and was really considering the Hammershmidt. I ended up going with an E13 DRS guide mainly due to price and the newness of the thing but would love to hear how you like it once you have gotten it out on dirt.

 

[Transcend]

I rode one around pretty extensively for a few days before crankworx at the media launch. It is a fantastic way of doing things if you want to run 2 chainrings for a trail/freeride bike. I really enjoyed being able to panic shift on a steep climb and not get dumped onto my ass.

Enjoy! I am hoping to get one for my new trail frame shortly.

 

[eRod]

killer build, man. i built my mkIII up on the burly side and it weighs about that much. make sure you do a review once you get some ride time on it.

 

[IH8Rice]

does it feel like the drive side crank arm is sticking far out? from that one shot it looks like it sits a lot farther out than a normal setup

 

[Banshee Rider]

does it feel like the drive side crank arm is sticking far out? from that one shot it looks like it sits a lot farther out than a normal setup

One would think, but its an optical illusion. The Hammerschmidt bottom bracket combines a Howitzer (external bearing) cup on the non drive side, and an ISIS cup on the drive side. In the end, both arms are equally spaced from the chainstays, and the chainring sits where a traditional middle ring would. I didn't measure the distances from the crankarm to the chainstay before-and-after, but I feel confident that nothing changed.

Bikerpunk: I'm 5'11. I chose the Medium for my preference of 23-23.5" top tubes on pedal bikes. The Large frame with a straight seatpost also feels good, but since I like my weight centered further back, I opted for a medium and run a Thomson setback post and a short(er) stem.

 

[Transcend]

does it feel like the drive side crank arm is sticking far out? from that one shot it looks like it sits a lot farther out than a normal setup

I asked this specifically, and was told it is about 2mm wider, I believe.

 

[ohio]

The engagement is only an issue immediately after a shift, correct? There's no freewheel, so once the pawls find their place there should be no freeplay until you shift again. So it shouldn't really negate the quality of the rear freewheel mech.

 

[djjohnr]

Banshee - How's the suspension bob pedaling standing up versus your previous single ring? I've found the Reign X bobs too much when I'm standing in granny, that's the only thing holding me back from trying a Hammerschmidt.

 

[IH8Rice]

One would think, but its an optical illusion. The Hammerschmidt bottom bracket combines a Howitzer (external bearing) cup on the non drive side, and an ISIS cup on the drive side. In the end, both arms are equally spaced from the chainstays, and the chainring sits where a traditional middle ring would. I didn't measure the distances from the crankarm to the chainstay before-and-after, but I feel confident that nothing changed.
.

thats a interesting setup with two different types of bb cups
the picture does make it look a lot more spaced out

I asked this specifically, and was told it is about 2mm wider, I believe.

if it really is 2mm, thats noting at all....even if its 5mm

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

Answer me this: What's the point when every frame out there is designed to pedal the best with a larger ring.

On a hardtail I'd be all over it, except if I was going to monkey around with heavy expensive planetary gear systems, I'd just get a Rolhoff. No chainguide needed that way.

I'm not being a hater, I just don't get it. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[rowlands]

Food for thought: I am as avid of a supporter of Industry Nine as I am SRAM. I’ve used hubs from Hadley, Chris King, and DT Swiss, and I can distinctly feel the difference in engagement on dirt with Industry Nine hubs. Do not turn this into an Industry Nine debate, my reason for bringing it up is this: Hammerschmidt uses three pawls, like a hub, that retract when the shifter is pressed. This is how Hammerschmidt acheieves its instantaneous shifting. However, with those pawls, the mechanism now also has engagment points, like a hub. I personally never considered this, the thought never crossed my mind. You can see where I am going with this; The Hammerschmidt, in essence, cancels out the 120 points of engagment from my Industry Nine hub. For those of you who can’t tell the difference, or have never owned a quick engagment hub, no problem. However, for the rest of you who can, its food for thought that has yet to be talked about online.

so in theory you could lock out your rear hub and use the free wheel in the cranks and have shifting front and back while coasting! or is the free wheel in the cranks on in use during shifting?

 

[Transcend]

Answer me this: What's the point when every frame out there is designed to pedal the best with a larger ring.

On a hardtail I'd be all over it, except if I was going to monkey around with heavy expensive planetary gear systems, I'd just get a Rolhoff. No chainguide needed that way.

I'm not being a hater, I just don't get it. I'd love to be proven wrong.

It pedals like crap on bike that pedal like crap in the granny ring, clearly. It pedals great on many bikes however. You can use a proper trigger shifter on it, and the shifting is instant. It makes the shifting on a rohloff feel like utter crap in comparison.

You don't need a Chainguide on a HammerSchmidt either.

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

You don't need a Chainguide on a HammerSchmidt either.

Say what? Why not?

 

[Rip]

That top part that goes over the chain keeps the chain on.

 

[Transcend]

Say what? Why not?

There's a tiny little chip of plastic (triangle thingy on top of the chainring) that keeps the chain on. The ring itself is sandwiched between the 2 plates on either side of it.

They include 2 different parts, one for a 22th ring and one for the 24th ring.

 

[Banshee Rider]

The engagement is only an issue immediately after a shift, correct? There's no freewheel, so once the pawls find their place there should be no freeplay until you shift again. So it shouldn't really negate the quality of the rear freewheel mech.

When you press the large shifter paddle, the pawls retract from the teeth and your now pedaling a 24T ring. The small shifter paddle releases the pawls, they engage the teeth, and your pedaling as if in a middle ring. There is a noticable "lag" in engagment. Its as if you have a chris king hub in one hand, and a deore XT hub in the other; you can feel the same difference in the cranks. I didn't specific check to see if the crank had the same lag in 1:1, but it would make sense that it would only have lag in the 1:1.6, when the pawls are actually engaged. However, since you spend the majority of time pedaling in 1:1.6, this might be an annoyance. I'll double check to make sure I worded that right when I go back to the shop tomorrow.

In addition, I'm going to put an XT wheel from a bike on the floor and see if the affect is doubled by using a cheap hub with fewer engagment points. I'll also post back about that.

 

[jcaramia]

That is one nice bike.

 

[RUFUS]

Sparky,
Your wheels are stupid looking!!!:biggrin:

 

[TKCastle]

Sweet build. Put a grommet where you drilled the hole through the fender. Sharp plastic edges will slowly knife through that housing and I dont want to know what is involved on changing that.

 

[Evil Sylvain]

Thanks for the write-up. I am also pretty much sold on the Hammerschmidt. And I also own I9 wheels, all red though.

Don't hesitate to post more as you experiment!

S.

Edit: BTW, did the HS came with the BB facing tool?

 

[Banshee Rider]

Sweet build. Put a grommet where you drilled the hole through the fender. Sharp plastic edges will slowly knife through that housing and I dont want to know what is involved on changing that.

It should be fine. Keep in mind that the housing will not be moving down there like the rear derailleur or brake line, it's stationary for good. I will keep an eye on it though. If for some reason the line was comprimised, its no more difficult than a standard cable/housing replacement.

 

[ohio]

When you press the large shifter paddle, the pawls retract from the teeth and your now pedaling a 24T ring. The small shifter paddle releases the pawls, they engage the teeth, and your pedaling as if in a middle ring. There is a noticable "lag" in engagment. Its as if you have a chris king hub in one hand, and a deore XT hub in the other; you can feel the same difference in the cranks.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but what you're describing means there's actually a freewheel mech in the system which doesn't sound right. If that were the case, you would actually see the chainring continue to rotate on coasting (which would also require that the rear freewheel has more resistance than the Hammerschmidt freewheel). I'll repeat: that lag you're describing should only exist on the first engagement after shifting, not every time you start pedaling. To put it another way, you will feel it every time you shift, not every time you pedal.

 

[4xBoy]

To put it another way, you will feel it every time you shift, not every time you pedal.

I hope that is what is really happening, I would not even consider it, if it is a second freewheel system all the time.

 

[frango]

I tought such setup (complete bike) would be lighter, but anyway, looks awsome

 

[MorewoodKid]

Awesome looking bike! Still funny to believe so few people are on the Hammerschmidt...

Got some video's here which I took at Eurobike which ought to help understand the "ratchet" "lag" everyone is talking about:

1.) Removing chainring

2.) Disassembly

3.) In action

One interested thing someone theorised, and something I haven't been able to stop thinking about since Eurobike: if you use a fixed rear hub your chain would be continuously rotating using the Hammerschmidt as a freehub allowing for coast-shifts. Now a continually rotating drive is not ideal: loud, premature wear, additional friction etc, but there is some thought there!

 

[ohio]

Again, I understand how the system works and that if you hold it in your hand you can freewheel it backwards when the pawls are engaged. However, in practice unless Truvativ is using very light springs for those pawls with not enough preload the pawls should not actually disengage on backpedaling except right after a shift and even then only if you backpedal quit suddenly and are working against the inertia of the chain. If it does, then that's a problem .

 

[Banshee Rider]

Again, I understand how the system works and that if you hold it in your hand you can freewheel it backwards when the pawls are engaged. However, in practice unless Truvativ is using very light springs for those pawls with not enough preload the pawls should not actually disengage on backpedaling except right after a shift and even then only if you backpedal quit suddenly and are working against the inertia of the chain. If it does, then that's a problem .

There was originally some miscommunication between you and I, but from reading your post, what you're trying to say is; As long as your turning the pedals forward, the pawls are always engaged, so you have as many points as your real hub has. Am I right?

I spent some time messing with it in the shop today. When in overdrive, Hammerschmidt has 24 points of engagment. When pedaling backwards, there are 4-5 clicks from the rear hub for every single click in overdrive. While what your saying makes sense, in practice it doesn't seem to apply when actually riding it. Your feet don't stay stationary when you stop pedaling, there is float. That (approx.) 1.5" inches of circular float when you stop pedaling plays a roll when beginning to pedal again. When riding one bike with I9s compared to another bike with I9s and Hammerschmidt, a difference can be felt when beginning to pedal again (with no backpedaling).

 

[ohio]

There was originally some miscommunication between you and I, but from reading your post, what you're trying to say is; As long as your turning the pedals forward, the pawls are always engaged, so you have as many points as your real hub has. Am I right?

No, you're still not getting what I'm saying. I'm saying whether you turn the pedals forward or backward, the pawls should always be engaged unless you shift. Apparently that is NOT the case from your description below which would explain why you haven't understood what I've been saying.

When pedaling backwards, there are 4-5 clicks from the rear hub for every single click in overdrive.

If the Hammerschmidt actually clicks on backpedaling (on a bike, not just in your hands) then Truvativ screwed up. It still shouldn't be a consistent number of hub clicks to overdrive clicks, because what's happening is the resistance in the hub and the inertia of the system are overcoming the resistance in the hammerschidt "freewheel." You can test this by snapping the pedals backwards, and you should be able to get more clicks out of the hammerschmidt for each click of the hub because of the inertia of the chain.

This can be remedied with stronger pawl springs set with higher preload, and with deeper ramps. Basically what you want is that on backpedaling it takes so much force to push the Hammerschmidt pawls up the ramps, that it only freewheels in the rear, and the Hammerschmidt pawls stay seated.

 

[Dogboy]

This can be remedied with stronger pawl springs set with higher preload, and with deeper ramps. Basically what you want is that on backpedaling it takes so much force to push the Hammerschmidt pawls up the ramps, that it only freewheels in the rear, and the Hammerschmidt pawls stay seated.

Wouldn't that eliminate shifting while coasting?

 

[dhkid]

so wait, if it uses prawls to engage the epicyclic gears, does that mean it wont disengage under constant power?

 

[Banshee Rider]

so wait, if it uses prawls to engage the epicyclic gears, does that mean it wont disengage under constant power?

It disengages under constant power. The shifter is reversed from a traditional front derailleur, the big paddle pulls the cable and retracts the calls from the stardrive, putting it into 1:1. In reverse, the small paddle releases pawl tension and places them back into the stardrive; overdrive.

Ohio, Hammerschmidt does indeed click when backpedaling on the bike, quite loudly too like an old Hugi hub. What your saying about pawl tension makes sense, but I suspect increasing pawl tension may also decrease the speed of shifting when the cable pulls to retract them.

I'm going to call the dealer line tomorrow from work and pick their brains alittle bit. Maybe there's a way to adjust pawl tension, maybe its the way it will always be, maybe theres 36" of snow outside and I'm overthinking things imstupid Ultimately, I'm just curious and it won't hurt to get some definative answers.

 

[dhkid]

It disengages under constant power. The shifter is reversed from a traditional front derailleur, the big paddle pulls the cable and retracts the calls from the stardrive, putting it into 1:1. In reverse, the small paddle releases pawl tension and places them back into the stardrive; overdrive.

ahh, cool. gbox 2 uses a similar system, but just magnets to move the pawls.

 

[ohio]

Actually, I just took another look at the exploded mechanism and I was making incorrect assumptions about how it works. There are TWO sets of pawls one from the collar plate to the sun gear (shifting pawls) and one from the sun gear to the ring gear (1:1) pawls.

To get the 1:1, you need the sun fixed to the carrier or ring.
To get the 1:1.6, you need the sun fixed to the frame/collar plate.

I had assuming the system the sun fully disengaged from the carrier when in overdrive and engaged with the collar plate. But with their two pawl system, this would require disengaging/engaging two separate mechanisms at once. If I'm reading the exploded diagram right, the sun never disengages from the carrier, instead it freewheels against it with the second set of pawls. If I'm right, the system would produce a freewheel clicking anytime you're in overdrive... is that the case?

In any instance, you can ignore all my previous posts. doh. sorry.

 

[ohio]

Wouldn't that eliminate shifting while coasting?

No, you don't need any components of the system to be rotating to complete a shift.

 

[Sonic Reducer]

how much did it set you back?
i dont think i trust the reliability of such a complicated product at least not the first generation of it.

 

[Banshee Rider]

how much did it set you back?
i dont think i trust the reliability of such a complicated product at least not the first generation of it.

I work in a bike shop, but it still cost a pretty penny. The crank, bottom bracket, and shifter retail for $715. Although you bring up a valid point about trying innovative first year products, I never considered it when making this purchase. SRAM possibly has the single best customer service I've dealt with so far in the bike industry. If I have a legitimate problem, I can expect a replacement part in three days with a paid envelope to return it. Especially with first year products like Hammerschmidt, I feel confident that I'm not "walking the plank" like I would be with small niche company x. Lastly, don't suspect I recieve 'special shop treatment' when making a phone call, they've equally stepped up for a number of regular customers, who were all left estatic.

What I will say is that this is an expensive product. If each of my bikes weren't as completely dialed as this one pictured, I probably would have used the money elsewhere in upgrades. Because this is a specific product with a high price tag, and it will only fit select bikes with ISCG tabs, I think I'll be lucky to sell even one in my area this year. For me, this is as much a performance purchase as a novelty one.

 

[Sonic Reducer]

i agree it is a bad ass product and i was very psyched when i first learned of it. it seems to offer many advantages over the traditional options with few drawbacks. i think the additional ground clearance is my favorite part. nonetheless i will definitely not be going for one for at least until the second generation of it comes out.
as far as only fitting bikes with iscg tabs, will a BB adapter plate not work?

 

[4xBoy]

as far as only fitting bikes with iscg tabs, will a BB adapter plate not work?

There is not enough lip on the bb cup to hold an adapter.