[norbar]

Recently I've updated my formulas(k24) with dot 5.1 motul fluid, goodridge hoses and EBC red pads. Worked great but recently they feel strange.

One lever almost drops to my bars and the second is very hard (I mean it - harder than my gustav + goodridge). I can live with very hard as I can tune it a bit with the k24 regulation but the other lever with huge drop buggers me. It's very hard to brake that way.

Any ideas what might have caused what I'm experiencing?

 

[RD3]

I would give both a good bleed and make sure that the goodridge fittings are tight. Before you bleed them, make sure that the pistons are in all the way, use a screw driver or tire lever between the pads and gently press them in.

 

[norbar]

I would give both a good bleed and make sure that the goodridge fittings are tight. Before you bleed them, make sure that the pistons are in all the way, use a screw driver or tire lever between the pads and gently press them in.

Did that + bleeded them like 3 times.

 

[mattmatt86]

did you do the Push-Pull method when you Bled them?

 

[norbar]

If I understand correctly what you mean than yeah.

 

[mattmatt86]

The way that Formula suggests to bleed there brakes is different then most other brakes so that's the only reason I was asking.

 

[norbar]

The way that Formula suggests to bleed there brakes is different then most other brakes so that's the only reason I was asking.

So yea I did everything they were suggesting for bleeding.

 

[rockwool]

Man, I'm almost sertain you're using the wrong fluid. It should be Dot 4. Dot 5 is a nono, I learned that the hard way with my Formula 4Racing (Extreme's). Never got that good feeling back in my rear brake, and the front is a no go.

The two aren't compationble because Dot 4 and lower is based on mineral oil, while the Dot 5 is silicone based (if I remember correctly). Double check my info with formula and flush that isht out.

 

[norbar]

Man, I'm almost sertain you're using the wrong fluid. It should be Dot 4. Dot 5 is a nono, I learned that the hard way with my Formula 4Racing (Extreme's). Never got that good feeling back in my rear brake, and the front is a no go.

The two aren't compationble because Dot 4 and lower is based on mineral oil, while the Dot 5 is silicone based (if I remember correctly). Double check my info with formula and flush that isht out.

I use DOT 5.1 not Dot 5. Those are 2 different oils. Dot 5 just kills the seals while dot 5.1 is good with dot 4 brakes(at least in theory > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2704763#post2704763 < )

 

[rockwool]

Blaaah, to much reading.. I'd still send Formula an email.

 

[Curious_George]

its hard to believe, but goodridges hoses as bomb proof as they are do cut sometimes...I would check that you installed the fitting properly...you never know

 

[norbar]

I'll recheck but they worked fine for some time (very short time but still something)

 

[MorewoodKid]

I'm no brake tech, but if a mfg recommends the use of a specific fluid or fluid classification in their product I stick to it. On paper dot 5.1 appears to be much better, but is the compatibility the same with the seals and mechanical parts of your brakes as the mfg recommended fluid?

On another note while at the Cape Epic a little while ago I spoke with the techys from Magura, Shimano and Formula and they were all complaining about brakes which have come back with "overheating" and other related problems while using the EBC pads. Can't say for certain there is something in it, but each of them had at least several cases of similar description... Could mean something?

I run Formula's myself and have done so for some time: K18's Puro's and recently the Mega, bled many of them, and always used dot 4 fluid without any problems.

Not sure if any of the above is helpful, but thats my 20c worth

 

[davep]

Dot 3, Dot 4, and Dot 5.1 are all 100% cross compatible (glycol based). There are varying minimum standards for each regarding viscosity, wet and dry boiling points etc, but they are all compatible in every way.

Dot 5 is silicone based and is NOT compatible with any bicycle brake, nor any system designed for glycol fluids.

Mineral oil is some odd thing that the bike biz came up with to appease the generally-mechanically-un-inclined cyclist...

 

[Curious_George]

" and other related problems while using the EBC pads.

ebc? never heard of it

 

[davep]

...On another note while at the Cape Epic a little while ago I spoke with the techys from Magura, Shimano and Formula and they were all complaining about brakes which have come back with "overheating" and other related problems while using the EBC pads. ..

The gold pads do have a warning about heat build up/dissapation as they are a high metal compound that acts as a good thermal conductor. But to truely overheat the brakes, you need to get to at least 450 Fahrenheit (assuming non-contaminated oil)...that is a LOT of heat. Not sure you could truely boil brake fluid on a bike like you can in a car..even that usually requires old, high moisture content fluid to happen. If anything, it is mostly an issue where the pads loose friction at high temps, not the fluid failing.

I run reds all the time on the DH bike and have never had an overheating problem. They wear fast, but I am OK with that trade for the grip.

 

[Dirtbike]

Another difference between 3, 4, and 5.1 is viscosity. 3 is the thickest, 5.1 the thinnest. If you switch from 3 or 4 to 5.1, you will notice your brakes returning much snappier, and vice versa. If you put the thicker fluid in Avid or Formula, they will return very slow and feel strange.

 

[Alloy]

The gold pads do have a warning about heat build up/dissapation as they are a high metal compound that acts as a good thermal conductor. But to truely overheat the brakes, you need to get to at least 450 Fahrenheit (assuming non-contaminated oil)...that is a LOT of heat. Not sure you could truely boil brake fluid on a bike like you can in a car..even that usually requires old, high moisture content fluid to happen. If anything, it is mostly an issue where the pads loose friction at high temps, not the fluid failing.

I run reds all the time on the DH bike and have never had an overheating problem. They wear fast, but I am OK with that trade for the grip.

hmmm interesting, my formula brakes pretty much suck on anything steep enough to heat them up. Did the red pads fix that for you? ...I love how light the brakes are, but so far I have had to take them off every season when the ski lifts open up.

 

[norbar]

Reds really improve the breaking quality but from what I've know there had been some bad series of them that wore out even more quickly.

I also have a litte theory. I've just reminded myself that I've had a crash recently that might have caused it. Any idea what mechanical damage could be the problem?

 

[al-irl]

must have been a bad crash if your only remebering it now. Did the levers pop out?

 

[norbar]

must have been a bad crash if your only remebering it now. Did the levers pop out?

Contrary - was rather small so I didn't think it could cause anything. Everyone crashes if trains seriously.

What do you mean by levers poping out? They turned on the bars a bit but they were loose. Don't remember anything besides that.

 

[rockwool]

Dot 3, Dot 4, and Dot 5.1 are all 100&#37; cross compatible (glycol based). There are varying minimum standards for each regarding viscosity, wet and dry boiling points etc, but they are all compatible in every way.

Dot 5 is silicone based and is NOT compatible with any bicycle brake, nor any system designed for glycol fluids.

Mineral oil is some odd thing that the bike biz came up with to appease the generally-mechanically-un-inclined cyclist...

Right, glycol based it was! I couldn't quite remember what I had read a while back.

What then are Magura and Shimano using, I thought that THAT was mineral oil?

 

[Jm_]

One lever almost drops to my bars

That one has air in it.

 

[norbar]

That one has air in it.

Man it was tripple checked. All done with the guides form here and goodridge.

 

[buckoW]

I am a tester for Formula and the head engineer for the One told me not to run the Goodridge housing.

To get a good bleed with the Formulas it is sometimes helpful to put a straight bar end on the bar so you can mount the lever with the bleed hole pointing up toward the sky. That usually gets the last little bubbles out of the system.

Another issue might be the piston in the lever. The old ones are plastic and the new ones are aluminum. Might be a that as well.

I think the Formula pads are better than anything EBC makes, IMO.

Good luck.

 

[norbar]

I am a tester for Formula and the head engineer for the One told me not to run the Goodridge housing.

To get a good bleed with the Formulas it is sometimes helpful to put a straight bar end on the bar so you can mount the lever with the bleed hole pointing up toward the sky. That usually gets the last little bubbles out of the system.

Another issue might be the piston in the lever. The old ones are plastic and the new ones are aluminum. Might be a that as well.

I think the Formula pads are better than anything EBC makes, IMO.



BTW. Bucko any idea if it might have been caused by a crash? As I don't see any other reason for the lever not returning.

Good luck.

EBC red's made my k24's stronger so thats not exactly right. The stock pads are nice and red's wear out fast but still in terms of braking power they rule. I'll want to try goodridge pads also.

And what's the argumentation behind not using the goodridge hoses? Because I don't exactly see how they could affecty the brake in that way (they actualy make it harder). I wouldn't use them with k18 as they have no regulation and on the lowest lever drop they would be to sharp but with the correct lever drop setting on k24's they are fine.

Anyway thanks for the new tip on bleeding. One more time and I'll be able to bleed them blindfolded So lets get to work

 

[buckoW]

Formula has a couple different kinds of pads and that is just my experience with access to all EBC and Formula models and 24 chairlifts behind my house. It is just what I think works for me. I imagine they told me not to run the Goodridge lines to keep testing their stuff.

Another bleed tip is to slightly push fluid through the system when closing the bleed hole with the torx screw. I also sometimes only bleed the lever leaving the caliper closed and push pull the fluid and the rubber reservoir gets all it's little bubbles out.

Good luck.

P.S. Have you tried the black backed Formula pads?

 

[norbar]

Haven't tried the black backed ones. Just the stocks. Went for the EBC as I've had good experiance with them previously although I recently heard that they had some bad series of reds that were just crap and that's why I'm thinking sth else.

Black backed give more power than EBC reds in your opinion? What is the main advantage of them?

BTW. I envy you the 24 lifts. Until the end of studies (engineer after 3 more semesters) I'm stuck in a flat city 300km from the mountains :/ Ended up building a dj bike I still have to learn how to ride on

 

[buckoW]

Hey Norbar

The black pads give me great power and last longer than the EBC pads that I have tried. I am sponsored by Suspension Center in Switzerland who import and distribute EBC and rode different EBC pads for a season and a half then I got picked up by Formula for testing and use only Formula pads now. I feel like the Formula pads last much longer performance wise than the EBC. We have lots of very long runs (Champery WC DH = home track) and I felt like the EBC pads would get some glazing going on where as the Formula pads would keep their performance for a longer time span. I have some race only Formula pads that are amazing but don't know if they are for sale.

In conclusion, I prefer the Formula pads and think they provide better performance for a longer life span. The new Formula discs help as well.

Oh and yeah, I am very lucky to have such great riding around my house. I am originally from the US so I am regularly blown away by the riding in Switzerland.

Ben

 

[norbar]

Black breake pads? Aren't they organic pads? Cuz that's the only black formula pads I found. Or am I being stupid and it is some name for special formula pads? Wouldn't it be better to try sintered pads?

BTW. Any experiance with Fibrax or Goodridge ?