[Tetreault]

within the last year or two, i have noticed that many frames now are utilizing a fully floating rear shock, (evil revolt, Mondraker summum, cannondale moto, ect) and i also remember about 5 years back sinister was testing a prototype, (the passion some may remember it) but it never materialized, assumably, because it just wasn't as good as one may have thought.

So since then, the question had remained in my mind, why hadn't anyone tried to make a working fully floating rear shock bike? then it came into concrete form when i first seen the revolt, but many questions still remained in my head, like exactly how this could compare to "floating rear end" bikes such as dw-link, maestro, VPP, ect.

well i stumbled upon joe's corner over at santa cruz bikes and thus a neat little article has been written up, i found it quite interesting and maybe some of you will as well.

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/news/index.php?JoesCorner=1&display=9

 

[Jm_]

What....what?

What is a "floating rear end" bike?

You're asking why no one has tried to design a "floating rear shock" bike, but you also listed a bunch? That makes no sense.

What is going on here?

 

[Delimeat]

There is some good reading in that there corner. But like anybody associated with anything, take it all with a grain of salt.

Good thing I never bought that sub-par Moto eh?

 

[Tetreault]

What....what?

What is a "floating rear end" bike?

You're asking why no one has tried to design a "floating rear shock" bike, but you also listed a bunch? That makes no sense.

i meant why did the idea just disappear a few years ago after sinister started experimenting with it? people had HUGE hopes for the idea, and then it sort of just vanished. Now its back and i just never fully understood the benefit of it

Floating rear shock = a shock that is compressed from both ends

Mondraker

 

[Delimeat]

i meant why did the idea just disappear a few years ago after sinister started experimenting with it? people had HUGE hopes for the idea, and then it sort of just vanished. Now its back and i just never fully understood the benefit of it

Floating rear shock = a shock that is compressed from both ends

Mondraker

Floaters have been around for ever. Wasn't it a Suzi in the 70's that had a floating shock? Someone out there will know. Lots of mtb's have used it before the Passion! was around, and I'm of the understanding (which is probably wrong) that the Passion! was more an experiment in having a variable axle path than anything. I think their design necessitated that floating shock.

Honestly, I have a heard time filtering out the benefits of anything these days. I think the real truth is that if you are looking at a proper bike for the purpose you have in mind, I doubt any of them will hold us back. I like to like at different bikes and designs and think about the drawbacks, that seems to make things clearer for me. Joe says my fingers will get chopped off if I noodle with the rebound knob on a Moto while riding it. That is a drawback.

 

[Kanye West]

The Sinister thing hasn't vanished completely. Needs a lot of effort to be perfected though.

 

[gemini2k]

Can someone tell me why SC insists on putting gray text on a white backround?

 

[MrPlow]

Can someone tell me why SC insists on putting gray text on a white backround?

Makes it too painfull to re-read and thus realise that their propogander is the same as anyone elses??
Great idea for SC though, obtain immunity for blatently slagging off your opposition (Cannondale) subtly accuse DW/Evil are a bunch of copycat's (see picture of their 2005 proto) and SC designed everything. Simply by stating someone asked them to.
Nice work

 

[Steve M]

What that SC article says is essentially correct though... floating shocks do have the POTENTIAL advantage of being able to obtain leverage rate curves that are not obtainable with typical linkage arrangements, but it is IMO highly unlikely that you'd ever find such a leverage rate curve that was actually advantageous that couldn't be achieved with a non-floating layout. This is simply because leverage rates don't need to change that drastically, or reverse direction or any of that kind of stuff.

 

[fluider]

... but it is IMO highly unlikely that you'd ever find such a leverage rate curve that was actually advantageous that couldn't be achieved with a non-floating layout. ...

What about Evil Revolt's LVR curve ? I'd guess it couldn't be achieved without floating shock.

 

[daisycutter]

"because it actuates from two directions, it breaks seal stiction faster". No, actually, it doesn't. It's the same force on the seal and in the shock as any bike that has the same leverage at that point.

"This is pretty elementary stuff. Especially for a company with annual revenues counted with a B, as in "How many billions of dollars did we make in 2009?" For their sake I hope this was just a marketing intern who made up some stuff and this wasn't relayed by anyone in their engineering department. "

cannondale said this about their moto bike

 

[norbar]

Makes it too painfull to re-read and thus realise that their propogander is the same as anyone elses??
Great idea for SC though, obtain immunity for blatently slagging off your opposition (Cannondale) subtly accuse DW/Evil are a bunch of copycat's (see picture of their 2005 proto) and SC designed everything. Simply by stating someone asked them to.
Nice work

What did you expect from the people that brought so much bs to the minds of kids that they can only be rivaled by marketing of spec and ellsworth. I still meet people who belive in the s shaped curve (or wheelpath) and I think they are one of the companies responsible for the pb movement of " this single pivut is suckorrrz, virtualz ftw"

 

[FCLinder]

Fusion Bikes has been using a Full Floater FSR setup for many years now. The design is on the full range of thier bikes.

http://www.fusionbikes.com/bikes/

 

[Eastern States Cup]

Rotec RL-9. Floating Shock. Sweet Ride.

 

[iRider]

Fusion Bikes has been using a Full Floater FSR setup for many years now. The design is on the full range of thier bikes.

So does a bunch of other brands that are engineered by the same guy behind the design of Fusion bikes.

And BTW: Nicolai had it on one of their first Lambda frames as well.

 

[slimshady]

The Tomac Magnum 204 is one of the oldest models I can remember featuring a full floater shock.. But I bet there are many other examples from the same age, mostly based on the Lawwill system:

http://www.bikepedia.com/Quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?Year=1999&Brand=Tomac&Model=204+Magnum&Type=bike

Also, more recently, you can name Trek's Full Floater, KTM's PDS, and another four-bar-linkage systems.

 

[syadasti]

Use teh search newb - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208351

Dirtworks had a prototype DH bike with it.

Full floaters look cool but offer no significant advantage in the real world.

 

[Jm_]

And...uhh....TREK!!!!???

 

[dropmachine]

Every day the bike industry gets alittle closer to looking like a bunch of guys in a row at a carnival, all yelling about the benefits of their "tonic" over the other guys'.

 

[jonKranked]

Full floaters look cool but offer no significant advantage in the real world.

lol wut?

If designed properly, a frame with a floating shock can have a front triangle that is lighter, as it does not need to absorb as much of the compressive forces from the swingarm via the shock. The elimination of a fixed shock mount on the front triangle allows for this.

Granted, it probably won't be a ton of weight, but every few grams count right?

 

[jonKranked]

Every day the bike industry gets alittle closer to looking like a bunch of guys in a row at a carnival, all yelling about the benefits of their "tonic" over the other guys'.

Right now we're closer to this:

 

[dropmachine]

I think Ridemonkey is closer to those guys, except the stuff those guys say is usually spot on.


Man, Statlers' HA is clearly not 64 degrees either. What a tard.

 

[NoUseForAName]

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/news/index.php?JoesCorner=1&display=9

That was about what i expected.

 

[Slater]

Even if you suppose that they result in better shock rates, they increase the unsprung weight of the rear suspension.

Also if you suppose they isolate the forces and keep them out of the front triangle, keeping the front triangle lighter, the linkages need to be strengthened to accomodate the extra forces. So you really just move it from one place to another. In this case you are again increasing unsprung weight.

Not to mention I've yet to see a shock rate out of a floating shock bike that was markedly different than a "normal" setup. Even if it were much different, just because it is so, doesn't mean its better.

Floating shock bikes are 95% about marketing and product differentiation.

 

[syadasti]

Even if you suppose that they result in better shock rates, they increase the unsprung weight of the rear suspension.

As was said before they don't really achieve anything in the usable curve that could be built with fixed mount. Its an alternative solution but not inherently better.

Hence:

Not to mention I've yet to see a shock rate out of a floating shock bike that was markedly different than a "normal" setup. Even if it were much different, just because it is so, doesn't mean its better.

Also if you suppose they isolate the forces and keep them out of the front triangle, keeping the front triangle lighter, the linkages need to be strengthened to accomodate the extra forces. So you really just move it from one place to another. In this case you are again increasing unsprung weight.

Floating shock bikes are 95% about marketing and product differentiation.

Exactly

 

[stiksandstones]

I wonder if this will be on HBCTC?

 

[NoUseForAName]

I wonder if this will be on HBCTC?

I don't know, but thanks for reminding me to check back over there.

 

[Jm_]

I don't agree with the earlier comment by Socket that you can achieve rates with a "floating shock" design that you can not achieve without it. I think a better way to put it is that in some cases, a "floating shock" design can allow more flexibility in frame construction while maintaining a desired leverage rate. This is what Trek is doing with many of their new bikes, which makes it fairly easy for them to maintain a straight seat-tube and also they don't have to fabricate or engineer two shock-mounts into the frame, so it possibly allows you to locate the shock in someplace that is better.

 

[blackohio]

Makes it too painfull to re-read and thus realise that their propogander is the same as anyone elses??
Great idea for SC though, obtain immunity for blatently slagging off your opposition (Cannondale) subtly accuse DW/Evil are a bunch of copycat's (see picture of their 2005 proto) and SC designed everything. Simply by stating someone asked them to.
Nice work

i like this reply.

 

[Sandwich]

Mcmahon racing cycles did it in like 96 or 7 with their BUFF frame.

And I bet any weight advantage you get is offset by having to strengthen pivots and tubes to deal with the higher compression or tension forces.

 

[dropmachine]

I bet if people put 10% of the energy into working on HOW they ride their bikes instead of worry about what numbers its sporting, they'd be much better off.


I'm curious (honestly) how much of the paper benefits of stuff like this is actually applicable to the real world too. Its all well and good that something works great in autocad, but would it actually affect the average rider? I mean, people have gone fast on KHS bikes.....

 

[davec113]

With Trek's design, it allows the use of a rocker (the "evo link") with a lower ratio. I believe this design is superior to a higher ratio rocker made of 2 huge, separate pieces of metal, like Kona, Ellsworth, and older Treks.

 

[JustMtnB44]

The GT LTS was also a floating shock design, in that the shock was mounted between two links and not to the main triangle.

I rode one for about 6 years until it cracked at the shock mount, but it worked well for what it was.

 

[blackohio]

Does the trek compress from both ends or is it a free floating shock. The linkage looks like as it compresses the top the lower link pivots downward.

 

[davec113]

The linkage looks like as it compresses the top the lower link pivots downward.

That's exactly it... because of that the "evo" rocker link that compresses the shock can be shorter on the back side that attaches to the seat stay, making for a stiffer bike. The Session is really freakin' stiff, very solid feeling for such a light frame.

 

[scman1]

Makes it too painfull to re-read and thus realise that their propogander is the same as anyone elses??
Great idea for SC though, obtain immunity for blatently slagging off your opposition (Cannondale) subtly accuse DW/Evil are a bunch of copycat's (see picture of their 2005 proto) and SC designed everything. Simply by stating someone asked them to.
Nice work

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/news/index.php?JoesCorner=1&display=3

Please read....

 

[Jm_]

Does the trek compress from both ends or is it a free floating shock. The linkage looks like as it compresses the top the lower link pivots downward.

This is one of the main problems with those that don't really understand the "floating shock" idea. It doesn't matter, and relative to the shock I guess you can always say it's being compressed at both ends. A force is applied, and the shock compresses. Relative to another part of the bike, or the earth, or whatever, doesn't really mater, doesn't change the forces.

 

[scman1]

What did you expect from the people that brought so much bs to the minds of kids that they can only be rivaled by marketing of spec and ellsworth. I still meet people who belive in the s shaped curve (or wheelpath) and I think they are one of the companies responsible for the pb movement of " this single pivut is suckorrrz, virtualz ftw"

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/news/index.php?JoesCorner=1&display=3

Please read...

 

[syadasti]

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/news/index.php?JoesCorner=1&display=3

Please read...

Yeah the best part is SC admits they were full of sh*t just like Specialized and Ellsworth's propaganda

It's also dead wrong. Santa Cruz once published a postcard showing the axle path of the original V10 as being "S-shaped". It was misleading and technically incorrect, and we apologize. We even have a US patent that covers that specifically: Patent # 5628524. But we no longer employ it in our designs, because it doesn't really matter.

 

[scman1]

Yeah the best part is SC admits they were full of sh*t just like Specialized and Ellsworth's propaganda

At least we admitted it. The more you develop the more you learn. I doubt the other companies you mention would ever cop to anything.