Has anyone ever seen a picture of the production version of the frame, rather than just a computer image?
Go-Ride now Taking DW DHR pre-orders
- Thread starter jonKranked
- Start date
Got this off the merida site
Would like to hear P-Specs input on those welding masks.
sorry about china:
The lead-times for alloy frames produced in China are on the rise. Volume bike makers in Europe are now planning to start a joint frame facility in the Ukraine in order to become more flexible.
For years the regular lead-time for in China produced alloy frames was 15 weeks. Currently that lead-time stands at about 25 weeks. The situation could even deteriorate further as the effects of the Chinese New Year holidays are not yet completely clear. Have all the workers come back to their employers or have they switched to new ones?
Next to workers/welders switching employers there’s also a consolidation trend going on among Chinese producers. The new labour regulations that went into force January 1, 2008 caused hundreds smaller companies active in the bike sector to cease operations.
And, with Chinese suppliers demanding upfront payment, the US dollar hitting a high against the Euro, and all the logistics problems and stretched lead times that come with sourcing in Asia; there’s a growing interest in production closer to the market. Eastern Europe offers possibilities for just that.
In order to become more flexible some of the volume bike makers in Europe are joining forces and planning to start frame production in Europe all over again. That production is to take place in low-labour-cost Ukraine, a country with a long history in metal processing. Bike Europe will publish more on this development in its April edition which also features a special on frames & forks.
The lead-times for alloy frames produced in China are on the rise. Volume bike makers in Europe are now planning to start a joint frame facility in the Ukraine in order to become more flexible.
For years the regular lead-time for in China produced alloy frames was 15 weeks. Currently that lead-time stands at about 25 weeks. The situation could even deteriorate further as the effects of the Chinese New Year holidays are not yet completely clear. Have all the workers come back to their employers or have they switched to new ones?
Next to workers/welders switching employers there’s also a consolidation trend going on among Chinese producers. The new labour regulations that went into force January 1, 2008 caused hundreds smaller companies active in the bike sector to cease operations.
And, with Chinese suppliers demanding upfront payment, the US dollar hitting a high against the Euro, and all the logistics problems and stretched lead times that come with sourcing in Asia; there’s a growing interest in production closer to the market. Eastern Europe offers possibilities for just that.
In order to become more flexible some of the volume bike makers in Europe are joining forces and planning to start frame production in Europe all over again. That production is to take place in low-labour-cost Ukraine, a country with a long history in metal processing. Bike Europe will publish more on this development in its April edition which also features a special on frames & forks.
in my industry, the Chinese have the ability to produce product within a 8-12 week period, which is extremely fast compared to product produced in Malaysia,Korea and or Japan.
is this the first Chinese New Year theyve ever had? how is the downtime not clear?
I may be wrong , but I highly doubt you could build a 100% American made dh bike.I don't know why when people get all jingoistic about this , they only talk about the frame.Like I said before , I put up more than my fair share of dough to American bike companies.I don't owe them anymore if I have price as a main concern,given the high and pretty equal level the bikes are at now.---also,I tig weld aluminum. It's hard ,a pain in the ass to keep uncontaminated ,and beautiful when put in the hands of a master .
Thank christ - but in the meantime, can we get this guy a custom title at least? I propose "Professional moron" but am open to anything less obvious/more clever.
A few of the guys from Turner are either up at SAPA currently or headed that way in the very near future to assemble and check tolerances, etc of the first few frames off the production line to make sure all is right with the rigs. The rest will start rolling off shortly thereafter.
The frames they put together are aimed for Sea Otter.
The frames they put together are aimed for Sea Otter.
your industry? what industry?
But having dealt directly with Chinese production facilities at my last job, it can be a huge headache. Everything has to be called out in explicit detail or they'll just do whatever they want. And they love to nickel and dime. I can't tell you how many times I heard the phrase "we will negotiate special offer"
And in regards to CNY, yea, it is like that. Everyone literally disappears for like 2 weeks. No phone calls, no email, nothing.
It's completely idiotic to think that the factories in Taiwan can't make high end products. Take your head out of your ass and take a look around the room you’re sitting in right now. Nearly everything we all own comes from a factory in Asia. The fact of the matter is that if there is a problem with your frame/fork/brakes whatever, it's the fault of the company for THEIR poor designs, THEIR poor timing, and continue to chose to save a buck to have THEIR products built in an inferior factory. We use countless quality products from Asia day in and day out and never give it a second thought. My Demo was built in Asia and it’s been the best frame I’ve ever had. Give your head a shake and wake the F*** UP.
^^
Absolutely.
The taiwanese take HUGE pride in their work, more so than a slobbish american, they will willingly put heart and soul in because they have achieved the employment of a big company, they weld frames all day every day to fantastic grades, its ridiculous to think taiwan isnt as good.
Absolutely.
The taiwanese take HUGE pride in their work, more so than a slobbish american, they will willingly put heart and soul in because they have achieved the employment of a big company, they weld frames all day every day to fantastic grades, its ridiculous to think taiwan isnt as good.
I'm not going to argue that $3200 is a huge chunk of cash for a frame regardless of where it's made. I do find it interesting that there is a lot of resistance despite the fact that there is a poplular black anodised, taiwanese bike that sells for a whole $100 less that is rewarded a sticky on this forum with pages of worshop and tuning. Given, that bike is a nice piece of work, and surely rides great, anyone that has owned a Turner in the past would know of the quality of the pivots alone. Another thing to consider is the FEA analyiys that went into the forged bracing on the spars/pivot area. A lot of work went into this bike to make it as strong as Turner would expect along with it being possibly 3lbs lighter than that other expensive cool bike.
Hey! I sold my last Turner and bought a Giant! And then another Giant! And now it looks like the Giants i've been riding while waiting for the new RFX will continue to be ridden since the RFX is on hold.
Hey! I sold my last Turner and bought a Giant! And then another Giant! And now it looks like the Giants i've been riding while waiting for the new RFX will continue to be ridden since the RFX is on hold.
I agree that evil frame is way over priced
Isn't that the big joke?
If you don't like the $3200 price tag don't buy one and shut up.
There is nothing wrong with robots welding, a robot can do a great job and they are consistant. Intense/Jeff is tooling around with robotic welding for the monoque front triangle. NOTE:NOT selling/producing, just testing and experimenting.
There is nothing wrong with robots welding, a robot can do a great job and they are consistant. Intense/Jeff is tooling around with robotic welding for the monoque front triangle. NOTE:NOT selling/producing, just testing and experimenting.
I feel like a lot of companies have had oodles of trouble with chinese manufacturers and tolerances/things being made to spec. Is that just my imagination? I thought corsair got hit with some of that, zerode got knocked back, a few other small companies trying to start up with chinese tooling...doesn't really work.
Anyways...it's cool to see other SMALL companies doing their own work. Purgatory, superco...in house brands that still make stuff, and for competitive prices.
Anyways...it's cool to see other SMALL companies doing their own work. Purgatory, superco...in house brands that still make stuff, and for competitive prices.
Im pretty sure Intense uses an automated process for the "seam" on their clam shell top tubes etc, Ive even seen video footage of their set up. Not a robot per say but definitely a automated set up.
Oh an did anyone really expect the DW DHR to be anything but expensive???
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Taiwan is not China though so what's your point?
...and have you seen the BS that follows a post about the revolt? It's far worse than the stuff in this thread.
Simple fact. The internet is full of opinionated assholes who dont have the slightest clue what their talking about and want to slag whatever. Buy/ride what you like, be a better rider not keyboard ninja. I personally love my Evil. I have loved all my DW bikes and e-13 products.
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The problem with all of these expensive frames regardless of where they are made is price conditioning. We have been buying expensive frames for too long already and the bike companies take advantage of this. It's like in golf when titanium drivers hit the market and they started charging $400 for them. People thought that it was crazy but we all had to have one, and now $400-$500 is the norm. "High end" bike frames are no different. It's been proven that people will pay $3000+ for a frame so most all of the bike companies are jumping on board with it. It's bullsh*t but thats the world we live in unfortunately. Cudos to bikes companies like Giant keeping things sane.
Simple fact. The internet is full of opinionated assholes who dont have the slightest clue what their talking about and want to slang whatever. Buy/ride what you like, be a better rider not keyboard ninja. I personally love my Evil. I have loved all my DW bikes and e-13 products.[/QUOTE]
THIS /\ /\
Run whatever you want and ride to have fun.
THIS /\ /\
Run whatever you want and ride to have fun.
If people could do it for half the price they would. Unfortunately the DH world demands pretty much everything to be the exact opposite of cheap. Manufacturing small quantities at odd timelines with non-dedicated tooling, using labour-intensive processes, forging stuff in small quantities, CNC milling of lots of stuff, expensive materials and treatment processes, and then change it all up every year. Nobody works for free - if you want the latest and greatest then you gotta pay to play. If you want something sturdy and reliable, get a 2007 Glory or something - it'll be cheap and probably last you the rest of your riding lifetime, but it's not as refined as some of the more expensive bikes out there.
The return on investment for tooling and strength analysis on DH bikes is extremely low compared to say the automotive industry. I worked for a major automotive brake manufacturer for a while, and the lengths they'd go to to save 1 dollar were nuts - they'd literally spend a million euros in development in order to save 1 dollar off the production cost per unit, because they were manufacturing millions of the units over its lifetime - which usually spanned the best part of a decade without major changes. What DH parts are still exactly the same now as they were 10 years ago? Not many - certainly not the expensive parts like frame/fork/brakes/cranks.
You guys make it sound as if this is just some random decision on turner's part to throw a much bigger profit on this frame. Dave is one of the most solid guys I've ever met in the industry and he certainly doesn't want to price people out of his own brand. He WANTS people riding his bikes. And he's the last guy you'll ever see laughing on his way to the bank because he pulled one over one somebody.
But he also wants to build the most badass dh frames around......especially with this incarnation. Running all the analyses, getting Weagle to do the kinimatics, building the prototypes last year, and paying for the domestic fabrication........this is what this frame costs. Just knowing DT the little that I do, I feel pretty confident saying he's not just sitting there going "gee, I bet we could get this much for this year's model, let's see if they buy it, har har".
People pay just as much and more for foes frames......where's all that bitching?
Having ridden the prototype last year, and knowing that the basic kinematics are pretty much identical, I KNOW this will be the best dh bike I've ever ridden, much less owned. I'll admit, it kina hurts but I'm saving the coin to pay for it and I really can't convince myself I'm getting ripped off or anything. That's just what's involved in getting this thing. I'm cool with it. If it were another company, that might not be the case.
It can't be heard over the metallic clacking sound of a Foes coming down trail
........and the curnutt clicking when it decides to work.It can't be heard over the metallic clacking sound of a Foes coming down trail
It's incredible the amount of work that goes into building a full suspension frame. People think they just grab some standard tubes and weld them together and that's it... but no way.
Sketching, calculating, modeling, getting the right tubes from the right companies, assembly, sending parts to machine, building, testing, and one little mistake means starting all over again.
It takes months to design a frame! I'm going through this and it is quite overwhelming, but at the end it will be worth it.
Sketching, calculating, modeling, getting the right tubes from the right companies, assembly, sending parts to machine, building, testing, and one little mistake means starting all over again.
It takes months to design a frame! I'm going through this and it is quite overwhelming, but at the end it will be worth it.
I have no problems whatsoever with expensive DH frames. After my neck injury is under control my next frame without question will be an Evil Revolt. I get the fact that you pay for advances in technology and I'm the type of guy who will pay for the latest and greatest. My point is that every time a new "boutique" frame hits the market lately it's priced at or over $3K. It's been established that WE will pay that price. Manufacturers know this and price accordingly even when they could likely charge less. Not a lot less, but less.
Sorry to derail this thread. The new Turner looks awesome and it's going to be a great frame that is competitively priced for the market.
Sorry to derail this thread. The new Turner looks awesome and it's going to be a great frame that is competitively priced for the market.
they are made in America tho
its a thunk noise, not a click
and id take both Curnutts ive had over another RC4
And my point is that this is not likely what's going on with TURNER. Like I said........Dave is not the kind of guy that would just mark things up simply because he thinks people will pay it, or because it's the new standard.
If that new giant glory frame cost that much, then you might have a point. But turner's manufacturing resources, production costs and volume are nothing like giant. I think that's where the price increase comes from.
I mean damn, look how cheap dhrs of the past were. They were cheaper by far than intense, foes, specialized and lots of others....and were some of the best out there. You're making the argument in this case that he's just following the pricing trend/standard. If that's how he wants to do it, he's been missing the boat for years.
and id take both Curnutts ive had over another RC4
If I find one in the loose change in my pockets one day I'll gladly trade you. That's a promise.
nice!If I find one in the loose change in my pockets one day I'll gladly trade you. That's a promise.
Slobbish American - brilliant stereotype.
yeah those guys at Intense, Turner, Foes, etc are all slobs
Kidwoo read what I wrote...
My point is that every time a new "boutique" frame hits the market lately it's priced at or over $3K. It's been established that WE will pay that price. Manufacturers know this and price accordingly even when they could likely charge less. Not a lot less, but less.
And then read what you wrote...
I mean damn, look how cheap dhrs of the past were. They were cheaper by far than intense, foes, specialized and lots of others....and were some of the best out there. You're making the argument in this case that he's just following the pricing trend/standard. If that's how he wants to do it, he's been missing the boat for years.
You couldn't have missed my point more. Well done.
My point is that every time a new "boutique" frame hits the market lately it's priced at or over $3K. It's been established that WE will pay that price. Manufacturers know this and price accordingly even when they could likely charge less. Not a lot less, but less.
And then read what you wrote...
I mean damn, look how cheap dhrs of the past were. They were cheaper by far than intense, foes, specialized and lots of others....and were some of the best out there. You're making the argument in this case that he's just following the pricing trend/standard. If that's how he wants to do it, he's been missing the boat for years.
You couldn't have missed my point more. Well done.
When I was poining out that the 951 was reasonable priced for a made in the US frame by a great company people were jumping down my throat. I guess whenever DW designs a frame or the company is "rider owned" it is OK that the price tag is steep, no matter if it is made overseas or not.
Watch out iRider, they'll crucify you for that.
Norbar, these frames ARE that much in the UK, the reason freeborn can have good pricing is because they are the distributors for devinci and mythic and therefore can sell without the 2nd markup that occurs when things hit the shops. We pay a ridiculous amount now.
Norbar, these frames ARE that much in the UK, the reason freeborn can have good pricing is because they are the distributors for devinci and mythic and therefore can sell without the 2nd markup that occurs when things hit the shops. We pay a ridiculous amount now.
Yes, you are right. They will determine price based SOLELY on what they think the frothing masses will pay. Never mind those pesky things like RMC, jig & fixture costs, machinery maintenance, electric bills to run the mills, or paying their employees. THEY ARE OUT TO RAPE OUR WALLETS!!!
stock's gonna skyrocket....