Gotta stir the pot, Chris King outboard bottom brackets???
- Thread starter manhattanprjkt83
- Start date
Actualy King invented the damn thing then when they finally got ready for production the x-type came out, so they invented the oversize ISIS but it was useless because it wouldn't work with any frame.the Inbred said:
King will never make anything but headsets, overpriced tools, and way overpriced h.s. spacers hubs and salt shakers. Buy FSA or Ritchey just my 2/100 of a dollar
I went through 2 sets of XTR outboard bearings in 10 months. Let's see, I used to get about 3 years out of a $40 XT BB and at this rate Shimano would be getting about $300-350 out of me for the same component. My shop sent my first set of XTR bearings off to Phil Wood for an overhaul.New bearings,seals and packed full of grease instead of the little smear that Shimano does to save weight for about the cost of 1 pair of XTR bearings. A year and a half later they are buttery smooth like the day I got them,better than the XTRs ever were. Maybe Shimano has improved this but I would not count on it. When the time comes to replace the crankset I will probably look at Race Face.
I just got some of the Raceface external setup. The cranks are pure sex but the bearings have a little too much drag.Reactor said:
Can you give some more details on "spanish or mid bottom brackets"?A.P said:
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I noticed that too, but they seem to have loosened up.Westy said:
BTW to the guy about XTR bearings - Shimano doesn't make, or grease bearings, they just use cheap ones. The best Powell Swiss bearings had little to no grease in them. Yes bearings need grease - I don't think they need a ton, unless it's hubs, and I think it matters about grease quality more than quantity.
Drag would much more likely be caused by seals than bearings.Westy said:
johnbryanpeters said:
I wonder if PETA knows about this, and how do they get seals in there anyway?
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Looks like BMX stuff. The first two in the link are mid and spanish, respectively. http://www.tenpackbmx.com/products/bottom_brackets_acc/index.htmljohnbryanpeters said:
Stolen from:johnbryanpeters said:
http://www.terribleone.com/blog/archives/000602.html
American, USA or BMX Bottom Bracket:
This is the size that has been the only option for BMX bikes forever. Its an old size, but still has several positive qualities. The most obvious is that it works. We all know that it works, because its worked for years and years, and in that sense theres nothing wrong with it. Every BMX crank has a USA BB that will fit it. Its big size allows for the use of one-piece cranks (because you need the extra room of the big BB to wiggle a set of one piece cranks through a BB shell). This isnt an important factor to most of us because most serious BMX riders will use higher strength 3 piece cranks, but this is important for bikes built with the beginner rider in mind. By being able to use 1 pc cranks the cost of complete BMX bike can be kept lower. The American BB size is also really tough. Big bearings, big shell equals strength. The one thing the American size never lacked was toughness. Though you shouldn't do this (use a cup press!!), you could pound your bearings in with a hammer and throw the bearing spacer away and you would still have smooth cranks. Lastly, the big BB shell offered a great welding surface for the intersection created by the downtube, seattube, and chainstays.
The downside is simply weight. Its a bit bigger and beefier then it really needs to be and thick bearing casings and BB shells are heavy.
Euro BB
The Euro BB size is one thats been in use for a long time too. Its been used primarily on mountain bikes and road bikes, but its been on BMX racing bikes and minis for sometime now. Most every BMX crank has a Euro BB available for it except for a few oversized cranks that are pretty rare. The upside to this design is that it is a lot lighter. Also, it uses a bearing cup that threads in. The thread thing is both good and bad. Its good because its easy to manufacturer a threaded cup to the right size (in USA BBs no one ever really knew precisely what size a BB shell should be, with threads its easy to say that the cup needs to be made to this particular thread size). The threaded design also makes installation easier, but not necessarily simpler since theres really nothing simpler then smashing your bearings in with a hammer like on a USA BB. There have been far too many instances of inexperienced mechanics cross threading the bearing cups into their frame and potentially ruining a frame because of a bottom bracket. However, as long as you can figure out that the threads on a Euro BB have a left and right side (like on pedals) you can probably install one pretty easy.
The downside to a Euro BB is mainly durability. The small size limits the bearing options and with a large BMX type spindle the bearings can get pretty diminutive. Thats why most Euro BBs made for BMX bikes have 4 bearings instead of just 2 like on a USA BB (or Mid or Spanish). The last thing about the Euro BB is the fact that it leaves more room for installation error. A young rider without bike mechanic skills can install this thing wrong in a second. If you forget to use the bearing spacer tube the bearings on a Euro BB will fail.
Mid and Spanish BB
These two new sizes are essentially the same. In these designs the bearing presses directly into the frame. No cups, and no threads. A little grease and a rubber mallet and the bearings should pop into the frame. Well, lets face it, this is BMX and most of us are going to use a block of wood and a hammer, but same difference, this design is not a press fit like a USA BB, its more of a pop fit. Both of these sizes are smaller then the American, but bigger then the Euro size. The downside to both these designs is that they are both fairly new. No one is quite sure how they will hold up in the long run (the Spanish BB has been tested for well over a year, and the Mid BB must be close to that too).
The Mid size is bigger then the Spanish BB size and has the advantages of the easy installation and simplistic design. This design utilizes the most tried and true bearing in BMX, a bearings from the cup of a Profile USA bottom bracket. Using that bearing all but eliminates the possibility of bearing failure. There is also room to grow with this design if ever BMX decided it needed some oversized spindle bigger then whats available now (since the BB shell is bigger, a bearing could be made to fit a bigger spindle).
The downside is that currently there is only the one bearing available and so only Profile compatible cranks can be used. In other words, you cant use Primos (or other 22mm crank spindles). This will probably change really quickly though, as surely someone is already working on making this size. Also, its a bit heavier then the Euro since its still using the larger bearings from an American BB.
Reactor said:
I remember seeing a post where the opposite was true. The Race Face was using a whole bunch of tiny balls, whereas the Shimano uses fewer large ones.
In my experience, the Race Face bearings suck. 200 miles on them and they started to drag. I replaced the Shimano cups after 1000 miles when the non drive side cup started to make noise when it was spun(it didn't drag, though).
easy solution: pop the plastic bearing covers off, then pop out (carefully) the bearing seals. purge out the crappy white lithium grease that comes stock in the bearings (sometimes not enough) and refill with your bearing grease of choice.Westy said:
i've done that with my two pair of Evolve externals, with much smoother results.
that and if you have one less 1mm spacer on the non-drive side, it can run things much smoother, yet still have no play. i had quite a bit of drag initially, and on Race Face's reccomendation pulled one spacer out. muuuuuuuch better.
for the original topic: yeah, King BB would be nice, but i'm not holding my breath. if they do it, it better come in all the colors......what's the point of that much on a BB if i can't get the pimpy coloration?????
perhaps Mr Nemesis will post about these Spanish BB, because i believe that is what he uses. what i don't understand about them, is how they're any better than an American BB (with smaller bearings). the whole "pop-in" method, as opposed to the press-fit of American BBs, seems as though there is space within the shell for the bearings to wiggle and jiggle around.
the Inbred said:
i'm assuming a lip or some sort of tube internally that they would butt up against. and on the spindle outside, you'd have some sort of locking collar/sleeve to adjust chainline and preload with at the same time.
the Inbred said:
Klein was doing this in the early 90's. I assume the spindle had a lip on it as you needed a special tool to press the bearings in with the spindle in place. They worked really well. I only had to change them out once in five years of riding.
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Did they do it for you every time your frame broke???Wumpus said:
MtnbikeMike said:
I think your confusing ISIS Vs. External in here somewhere. Shimano has always used smaller bearings. The even smaller bearings in most ISIS designs are why they generally suck.
The bearings in the raceface x-type are quite large, and there are twice as many as in most BB's. The only problem I've seen with them is that they are sensitive to being side loading ( read: overtightened by inexperienced mechanics, with too many spacers). If you don't absolutely know your BB shell is in spec (68+-.5mm or 73+-.5mm), you need to tighten the crank bolts and check for drag every half turn or so when you get then nearly torqued down. If you notice drag before you hit the positive stop, take the crank apart and remove one of the small crank spacers, and repeat.
My Switchblade is slightly wider than spec, so I have to remove one crank arm spacer. A friend has an Ellsworth that, wait for it, is slightly wider than spec. He has to remove one crank arm washer. Another friend with an XT BB has had the creaking and dragging for months now. He got his when I got my raceface.
Edit: Sorry Scrublover, just noticed you posted prety much the same thing.
I haven't notice much of an increase in the drag after installing the cranks, it seems just the heavy sealing, same kind of drag seen in my King hubs.scrublover said:
sanjuro said:
I think he thinks Kleins break.
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Yeah - and Wumpus has had a few.Westy said:
I'm turning over a new leaf, notice how I didn't try to insult you.loco said:Yeah - and Wumpus has had a few.
I raced Kleins for 10 years, had three different frames, never broke one, though the last frame I had got really flexy during the 4th year Itried to race it, but to be fair that frame was high mileage and abuse.....Westy said:
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Yeah - but you did that with the killer deal on the fork. I like this new leaf though. Take it out on N8, if you wish.Westy said:I'm turning over a new leaf, notice how I didn't try to insult you.
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It turns out they were working on pricing instead of bottom brackets.
Once it's all set up how often do you need to adjust the chainline?the Inbred said:imagine the cost of their BB
i have to admit...adjustable chainline using a 5mm hex would've been badass.
No need for a Chris King BB. Shoot, no need for Chris King anything. Now if we could just get Hadley to make pink hubs.
I am assuming Chris King never followed through with ISIS because he realized that the oversized axle did not leave enough room for a bearing that would last more than a month or two. Too bad none of us realized it until it was too late. Remember how long UN-72's lasted?
I'm with those voting for the larger BB shell. Can anyone think of any reasons not to do this?
And King hubs may be overpriced and a bit fussy but their headsets are worth every penny.
I'm with those voting for the larger BB shell. Can anyone think of any reasons not to do this?
And King hubs may be overpriced and a bit fussy but their headsets are worth every penny.