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Handlebar Roll + Reach

acair422

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
552
2
Hey Ridemonkey world. I'm currently looking to open up a bit more cockpit space on my Pivot Phoenix. I'm just a hair under 5'11 so always on the fence between a medium and large frame. Given how small my older Turner was I opted for the medium. However after 2 months on the bike I'm starting to feel like a bit more space upfront would be helpful. I'm running Envy DH bars which have 9* of sweep. A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.

I now ask the internet to tell me how wrong I am and what I should do...
 

WestCoastHucker

Turbo Monkey
a degree of difference will translate to about 1/4" at the very end of the bar, but about 3/32" where the inside edge of your grip is. it doesn't evenly extend 1/4" all the way...

(for simplicity sake, i used a 30" bar with the bend starting midway between the stem and the end of the bar)
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
940
122
Rolling your bars forward will definitely stretch the cockpit out. I'd try rolling your existing bars forward, getting new bars will change the whole profile of your hand position so your better off seeing if you can make your existing setup work before changing to a new one. Why not a longer stem too? Or are you already on the longest you would go stem-wise? 5-10mm probably won't adversely effect your steering while adding a little bit of room for you. or you can try a reach adjust headset if your steerer/steer tube allows for it, thats what I did on my DHR. got 7mm of reach while keeping same bars and stem

this is what I got, shipped to Atlanta from the UK.

http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/reach-adjust-ec49--ec49-headset-with-7mm-offset---order-now-for-1207-dispatch-363-p.asp
 

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
151
162
Hey Ridemonkey world. I'm currently looking to open up a bit more cockpit space on my Pivot Phoenix. I'm just a hair under 5'11 so always on the fence between a medium and large frame. Given how small my older Turner was I opted for the medium. However after 2 months on the bike I'm starting to feel like a bit more space upfront would be helpful. I'm running Envy DH bars which have 9* of sweep. A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.

I now ask the internet to tell me how wrong I am and what I should do...
Just did a very approximate calculation. My bars have about 9.5" of length after the bend.

Sin(9)=x/9.5 --> x is about 1.48.
Sin(8) = x/9.5 --> x is about 1.32

so a difference of .16

so by rough calculation under a 1/4 but more than an 1/8.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
5,774
1,857
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Hey Ridemonkey world. I'm currently looking to open up a bit more cockpit space on my Pivot Phoenix. I'm just a hair under 5'11 so always on the fence between a medium and large frame. Given how small my older Turner was I opted for the medium. However after 2 months on the bike I'm starting to feel like a bit more space upfront would be helpful. I'm running Envy DH bars which have 9* of sweep. A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.

I now ask the internet to tell me how wrong I am and what I should do...
Technically, "reach" can't be adjusted by cockpit factors such as stem length and bar sweep, it's just a static dimension of a given frame.


But yeah, I would assume that a bar with less sweep (or a longer stem) would give you a little roomier feel. FWIW, I'm the same height as you, and after getting a Large GG/DH, I'd give that a serious thought with a ~30 mm stem. Just me tho, as I think I have some monkey arms.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,855
947
01776
I guess sweep could be used to get more reach, but I've always thought of sweep and rise as sort of user preference, ie ride what's comfortable. If you're after more reach and are willing to fuck around with things like that, why not get a longer stem? It would accomplish the same thing but wouldn't change bar feel.
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
940
122
as will rotating your bars. backsweep will turn into upsweep...
true. but rolling your existing bars should lead to a more natural feeling position than getting new bars all together. I try not to mess with bar position once I get it set where I like it. I think the best option for adding reach is a reach adjust headset, adds reach while keeping all other parameters the same. You have to account for the added space from the external headset cups, but usually that can be mitigated with the position of the stanchions in the crowns.
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
14,374
2,902
behind you, don't wait up.
Pivot's sizing recommendations are whacky. I'm 5'11 and could/should be squarely in a medium and there is no way I could ride their medium Phoenix nor Mach 6 frames.

Also, what Leland said.
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
940
122
I think a stem or reach adjust headset or a combination of the two is going to be your solution. this is on a dh bike so ill assume you are using the most common stem length which is 45mm. you could go to a 50mm stem, and use that in conjunction with the 7mm reach adjust headset, and net yourself 12mm extra room, and since your only increasing stem length by 5mm you probably wouldn't change the steering characteristics enough to actually feel it
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
940
122
i don't know. switching from having your hands angled back to angling them upward feels drastically different...
Yeah, I'm not talking about extreme degrees of roll though. there is a range of roll that your bar is designed to be able to accommodate, it's marked on top in the center, probably like 10 degrees of roll in either direction off center. I like my Renthals rolled almost all the way forward, both my bikes are setup like that.
 

troy

Monkey
Dec 3, 2008
843
406
You can lower Your fork, to get more reach, but that will alter the stack as well.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
2,702
717
UK
A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.
Tell the fellow rider to stop reading articles that bang on about longer reach being the HOLY FUCKING GRAIL. It's not..
Choose a bar sweep YOU feel comfortable with and roll it to the desired position for comfort and control. ride your bike and stop analysing numbers. Oh... and if you ever feel cramped bend your elbows a fraction of a degree MOAR they're pretty good at that sort of thing.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
1,851
468
Northern California
Hey Ridemonkey world. I'm currently looking to open up a bit more cockpit space on my Pivot Phoenix. I'm just a hair under 5'11 so always on the fence between a medium and large frame. Given how small my older Turner was I opted for the medium. However after 2 months on the bike I'm starting to feel like a bit more space upfront would be helpful. I'm running Envy DH bars which have 9* of sweep. A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.

I now ask the internet to tell me how wrong I am and what I should do...
This would have the exact same effect as a longer stem. Might as well go the stem route as it's likely cheaper and easier to gauge how much more room you'll get. If you want more front-center and actual reach you could try an angleset or if you want to keep the HA the same then a reach adjust headset like mentioned above.
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,445
391
Fenton, MI
I think a stem or reach adjust headset or a combination of the two is going to be your solution. this is on a dh bike so ill assume you are using the most common stem length which is 45mm. you could go to a 50mm stem, and use that in conjunction with the 7mm reach adjust headset, and net yourself 12mm extra room, and since your only increasing stem length by 5mm you probably wouldn't change the steering characteristics enough to actually feel it
I don't find 45mm to be the most common dh stem, I find 50 to be most common and 45 is what I used to shorten the reach for my wife on her bike
 

acair422

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
552
2
Definitely going to bring the whole 'elbow bending' into consideration :doh:i agree a lot of this is internet hype but when you're stuck in an office all day internet hype makes a confused rider. Sounds like stem is probably the route to go. It's not just internet hype about sweep/roll etc but also that I'm a long limbed 5'10 rider so I literally am right in the middle of frame sizes where a large can feel longer than a cadillac and a medium can feel a bit cramped. I think the current stem is a 45 so I can add a bit of space there.
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
940
122
Definitely going to bring the whole 'elbow bending' into consideration :doh:i agree a lot of this is internet hype but when you're stuck in an office all day internet hype makes a confused rider. Sounds like stem is probably the route to go. It's not just internet hype about sweep/roll etc but also that I'm a long limbed 5'10 rider so I literally am right in the middle of frame sizes where a large can feel longer than a cadillac and a medium can feel a bit cramped. I think the current stem is a 45 so I can add a bit of space there.
look at headsets first. i think the headset would be the most logical one to try first. if the headset doesn't get you enough reach, then get a longer stem. the idea is to try and minimize the amount of extra stem length so it doesn't adversely affect the steering and handling characteristics. the headset will be like going up half a frame size
 

Happymtb.fr

Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
828
216
SWE
Definitely going to bring the whole 'elbow bending' into consideration :doh:i agree a lot of this is internet hype but when you're stuck in an office all day internet hype makes a confused rider. Sounds like stem is probably the route to go. It's not just internet hype about sweep/roll etc but also that I'm a long limbed 5'10 rider so I literally am right in the middle of frame sizes where a large can feel longer than a cadillac and a medium can feel a bit cramped. I think the current stem is a 45 so I can add a bit of space there.
Sorry but I don't really buy this "in the middle of 2 frame sizes" argument. Most brands have their reach changing by around an inch and or little less from one size to the other so that you can easily adapt with a shorter or a longer stem in order to not feel stretched or cramped.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,513
318
Warsaw :/
Hey Ridemonkey world. I'm currently looking to open up a bit more cockpit space on my Pivot Phoenix. I'm just a hair under 5'11 so always on the fence between a medium and large frame. Given how small my older Turner was I opted for the medium. However after 2 months on the bike I'm starting to feel like a bit more space upfront would be helpful. I'm running Envy DH bars which have 9* of sweep. A fellow rider mentioned going to a bar with 7 or 8* of sweep and that each degree will create about an extra 1/4" of reach.

I now ask the internet to tell me how wrong I am and what I should do...
Why not go for offset headset cups? Works components made them if I remember right.

Use that, get a 5mm longer stem, 10mm higher bars.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,855
947
01776
I'm sorry, but I simply disagree with anybody who says you should just deal with a frame that doesn't fit well, or that you're being too sensitive if you feel your frame doesn't fit. We live in a world where a $3000 bike frame is normal- it should fit the way that you want it to, and if it doesn't, there should be ways of getting it closer (like reach adjust headsets). People who say "Just deal with it" always crack me up. Should we just deal with falling rate bikes, and poorly designed geometries, or speak with our wallets and buy shit you can adjust or fits right off the rack?
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,445
391
Fenton, MI
Sorry but I don't really buy this "in the middle of 2 frame sizes" argument. Most brands have their reach changing by around an inch and or little less from one size to the other so that you can easily adapt with a shorter or a longer stem in order to not feel stretched or cramped.
Sorry not sorry, but both my wife and I fall into this dilemna every year. We both tend to fall squarely between the recommended frame sizes by a manufacturer.

She's always in the overlap of recommended heights for a small/medium and I am always in the overlap of medium/large.

I used to ride mediums and she used to ride smalls. We've both decided to frame up and stem down on recent bikes and feel that they have fit both of us better with that mindset. I 100% understand the original poster's thoughts and dilemna.
 

Happymtb.fr

Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
828
216
SWE
Sorry not sorry, but both my wife and I fall into this dilemna every year. We both tend to fall squarely between the recommended frame sizes by a manufacturer.

She's always in the overlap of recommended heights for a small/medium and I am always in the overlap of medium/large.

I used to ride mediums and she used to ride smalls. We've both decided to frame up and stem down on recent bikes and feel that they have fit both of us better with that mindset. I 100% understand the original poster's thoughts and dilemna.
Your experience shows that you can fit both frame sizes without feeling cramped or stretched even if one size, in the end, fits you better than the other. Choosing which size will fit you better is a dilemma, I fully agree with you, but you will neither end up stretched nor cramped on both sizes with the right stem length which was my original point.

Can you explain in what regard the larger frames fit you better? I am (luckily ;) ) not between 2 sizes but I wonder if I could size up and your experience could be helpful.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
Your experience shows that you can fit both frame sizes without feeling cramped or stretched even if one size, in the end, fits you better than the other. Choosing which size will fit you better is a dilemma, I fully agree with you, but you will neither end up stretched nor cramped on both sizes with the right stem length which was my original point.
I disagree with your overly simplified conclusions; basic analysis of the human life form will explain why. Do humans just come in 3 sizes - S, M, L?

It's actually a very common problem to be between sizes, and the solution is NEVER as simple as changing the stem length - in fact stem length should not really be used as an adjustment since it changes weight balance over the front wheel, and affect critical functions of bike handling (eg. steering). 50mm is the standard as someone mentioned, and deviating from that (especially in the longer direction) has negative side effects.

Things like offset headset cups are a better solution and can help by shifting the entire front-center length, but this adjustment peaks at 6mm or ~0.25" and is therefore not able to reach the exact middle point between two frame sizes which are often 1" apart.

At the OP's height of 5'11 it's actually very common to be squarely between M and L sizing and there is actually no simple solution, often it will require a balance of things to get an optimal result.

FYI there are bikes I have personally not purchased purely because there wasn't a size that fit me. This is a real problem and I think having a greater spectrum of sizes is something that should be encouraged of manufacturers, not discouraged.
 

Happymtb.fr

Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
828
216
SWE
seriously man, you want to extend your reach?

Bar ends.



Bar ends bro.
Great idea, then I would be able to use these
b51ea430aed57db36b499952bac57b52.jpg

:brows:

I disagree with your overly simplified conclusions; basic analysis of the human life form will explain why. Do humans just come in 3 sizes - S, M, L?

It's actually a very common problem to be between sizes, and the solution is NEVER as simple as changing the stem length - in fact stem length should not really be used as an adjustment since it changes weight balance over the front wheel, and affect critical functions of bike handling (eg. steering). 50mm is the standard as someone mentioned, and deviating from that (especially in the longer direction) has negative side effects.

Things like offset headset cups are a better solution and can help by shifting the entire front-center length, but this adjustment peaks at 6mm or ~0.25" and is therefore not able to reach the exact middle point between two frame sizes which are often 1" apart.

At the OP's height of 5'11 it's actually very common to be squarely between M and L sizing and there is actually no simple solution, often it will require a balance of things to get an optimal result.

FYI there are bikes I have personally not purchased purely because there wasn't a size that fit me. This is a real problem and I think having a greater spectrum of sizes is something that should be encouraged of manufacturers, not discouraged.
Ok, I will have to admit that I was wrong! :agree:
I'm just a chimp, u know... and it was nice to leave in an overly simplified world for a while ;)

Something about size recommendations: if you look a Pivot Mach 6, a medium is recommended for people between 170cm and 180cm (5'7 to 5'10) and has a reach of 402mm or 15.81inch. A medium from Pole Bicycle, also recommended for people between 170 and 180cm has a reach of 480mm or 18.9inch. This is quite a difference! I choose those brands purposefully, since they are quite extreme in this regard. I guess that someone in the middle of the recommended size for a medium would feel cramped on a mach 6 and stretched on a Pole bike...
So I agree that sizing is not a simple question even if your not between 2 recommended sizes!
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,513
318
Warsaw :/
Great idea, then I would be able to use these
View attachment 122941
:brows:


Ok, I will have to admit that I was wrong! :agree:
I'm just a chimp, u know... and it was nice to leave in an overly simplified world for a while ;)

Something about size recommendations: if you look a Pivot Mach 6, a medium is recommended for people between 170cm and 180cm (5'7 to 5'10) and has a reach of 402mm or 15.81inch. A medium from Pole Bicycle, also recommended for people between 170 and 180cm has a reach of 480mm or 18.9inch. This is quite a difference! I choose those brands purposefully, since they are quite extreme in this regard. I guess that someone in the middle of the recommended size for a medium would feel cramped on a mach 6 and stretched on a Pole bike...
So I agree that sizing is not a simple question even if your not between 2 recommended sizes!
Going by recomended sizing is a stupid idea anyway. Know what reach and stack fits you. It's obvious companies differ in sizing. Look at Patrol bikes, an indonesian company with clearly indonesian sizing ;)
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
2,702
717
UK
Know what reach and stack fits you.
according to who tho?

I'm also 5'11" but ride (S/M) DH frames, (M ~23"TT) XC, (22"TT) 26"DJ. (20.75"TT) BMX and (M ~ 55cmTT) roadbikes... all except the BMX have shorter stems than the norm. Yeah... it's fucked up by today's standards... but it's just what I've become comfortable on over many many years of riding. it has never held me back. I'm not racing so don't care about Nth degree of stability and every longer bike I've ever ridden hasn't felt comfortable or manouverable enough for the way I ride.
If I go into a bike shop they now instantly try to get me riding a (L) which these days is a reach of at least an inch longer than I'm comfortable riding (sometimes 3" longer). all in the name of the current Looooong is best #STABILITYisEVERYTHING mtb fashion meaning along with the 26" wheel the industry don't actually make what I'd consider (S) bikes anymore.
And don't get me started on the mtb media. You've got 6ft tall guys like Steve Jones from Dirt constantly banging on that every bike he reviews that's not an XL or XXL is somehow a failure. Don't get me wrong here Steve's a very fast DH racer for his age.. but he's got a riding style I personally have no desire to replicate.
Like @Udi said... we need MOAR sizing choices not just some cunt moving the goalposts an inch to the right each season and calling it progress

Look at the state of wee Sammy Hill these days because of this shit! everyone rocketing round the outside lines like a freight train while he toddles through his sneaky insides to 27th place. Fire/Desire/Head gone it seems, rarely looking like he's enjoying himself anymore only Remi and Hart left to entertain us with creativity AND speed?

It probably won't be too long #Enduro (and along with it DH) goes full Sportive and the Dentist dollar everywhere will be spent comparing the quality and benefits of their $250 "Bikefit" consultation.

I'm off down the Pub... the auld boys there say my bike's too wee anaww but at least I can drown my sorrows and reminisce over the good ol' days with them.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,513
318
Warsaw :/
according to who tho?

I'm also 5'11" but ride (S/M) DH frames, (M ~23"TT) XC, (22"TT) 26"DJ. (20.75"TT) BMX and (M ~ 55cmTT) roadbikes... all except the BMX have shorter stems than the norm. Yeah... it's fucked up by today's standards... but it's just what I've become comfortable on over many many years of riding. it has never held me back. I'm not racing so don't care about Nth degree of stability and every longer bike I've ever ridden hasn't felt comfortable or manouverable enough for the way I ride.
If I go into a bike shop they now instantly try to get me riding a (L) which these days is a reach of at least an inch longer than I'm comfortable riding (sometimes 3" longer). all in the name of the current Looooong is best #STABILITYisEVERYTHING mtb fashion meaning along with the 26" wheel the industry don't actually make what I'd consider (S) bikes anymore.
And don't get me started on the mtb media. You've got 6ft tall guys like Steve Jones from Dirt constantly banging on that every bike he reviews that's not an XL or XXL is somehow a failure. Don't get me wrong here Steve's a very fast DH racer for his age.. but he's got a riding style I personally have no desire to replicate.
Like @Udi said... we need MOAR sizing choices not just some cunt moving the goalposts an inch to the right each season and calling it progress

Look at the state of wee Sammy Hill these days because of this shit! everyone rocketing round the outside lines like a freight train while he toddles through his sneaky insides to 27th place. Fire/Desire/Head gone it seems, rarely looking like he's enjoying himself anymore only Remi and Hart left to entertain us with creativity AND speed?

It probably won't be too long #Enduro (and along with it DH) goes full Sportive and the Dentist dollar everywhere will be spent comparing the quality and benefits of their $250 "Bikefit" consultation.

I'm off down the Pub... the auld boys there say my bike's too wee anaww but at least I can drown my sorrows and reminisce over the good ol' days with them.


Not sure if you are drunk, trolling or both
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
25,842
1,651
I'm convinced that Gary is secretly a T-rex.
Meanwhile I'm the anti-T-Rex. Gorilla instead? My long and low medium 5010 (note that they redid the geometry last or this year—akin to Yeti now) is just the ticket for my short legs and desire for moar shimz reach.
 

TrumbullHucker

trumbullruxer
Aug 29, 2005
2,207
585
shimsbury, ct


that feeling when you dont know if you have a properly set up cockpit :/

i screw around with my bar and stem combo alot.. some parks it feels spot on, some dont
i feel like my boxxer has such a linear dive.. no ramp. need to figure that out too