[guero]

I never hold on to a bike for more than 3 years. Which got me thinking about the environmental cost of it all.

When I put together my wheels this year I went with King based in large part on their environmental practices.

Taking into account all of the manufacture costs, what frame material is best for environment? I know titanium is rediculously bad, but what about the other materials like carbon?

 

[zahgurim]

Making any sort of alloy is bad for the environment. At least once made ti will last you a lifetime; no corrosion like steel, doesn't fatigue/break like alu.

Best material for the environment? Bamboo. Saw a couple frames kicking around made out of that. Really interesting stuff.

 

[ÆX]

At least once made ti will last you a lifetime; no corrosion like steel, doesn't fatigue/break like alu.

.

not tru ti will fatigue and break sooner than carbon just like any other welded frame.

as for the prosses of mfg carbon and its resins i don't know.
i sure a google search could turn up something.

or go to a composites forum, i bet there would be some prepreg
mfg there who could tell you.

 

[guero]

Thanks BCD - couldn't find much other than the process of manufacture for the precursors.

 

[TRON]

what about this material?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6342381.stm

Carrot bike?

 

[SinatorJ]

I want the most enviornmentally unfriendly frame manufactured by a bunch of 8 year old tiwanese kids wearing baby seal slippers fed by a constant diet of California condor eggs making $1 a week.

 

[Westy]

The major impact of metal frames comes from refining from raw mined sources. The impact is much lower if the metal comes frome recycled sources not to mention old frames can be recycled over and over. As far as I know carbon frames can not be made from recycled materials or be recycled themselves. Actually one my old ti fram dies I could probably get a decent amount of money for it as scrap metal.

 

[Jeremy R]

If this was something to actually care about, Al Gore would be all over Ellsworth for causing global warming.

 

[bent^biker]

Best material for the environment? Bamboo. Saw a couple frames kicking around made out of that. Really interesting stuff.

could actually be doable preventing spliting, mounting stuff, and getting shapes that you would actually want to work with would be difficult

 

[RimJobbed]

I want the most enviornmentally unfriendly frame manufactured by a bunch of 8 year old tiwanese kids wearing baby seal slippers fed by a constant diet of California condor eggs making $1 a week.

YES! me too. And I want any of those 8 year olds that can't see correctly to be wearing ivory bifocals, so help me God if they don't weld that frame correctly due to an undiagnosed astigmatism. I've killed for less, I tell you what.

 

[bikenweed]

Calfee makes bamboo road bikes, but I'm sure with enough $$$ they'd consider doing a DH frame... http://www.calfeedesign.com/

 

[Honus]

You could always go with a thermoplastic- most of that stuff is recycleable. I don't know about the high end fiber reinforced stuff like CarbonPEEK though. And of course past attempts (Yeti and GT) weren't that successful.....

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

I'm not sure and I could ask Alex, but as far as I know, there isn't high ammounts of heat added that could put something into the atmosphere. Seeing as carbon fiber bikes arn't as popular, there isn't enough to make a dent in the atmosphere.
The only thing I could think of is the maker inhaling particulates from cutting the CF and other airborn particales or chemicals they use to make the frames.

 

[luelling]

I never hold on to a bike for more than 3 years. Which got me thinking about the environmental cost of it all.

When I put together my wheels this year I went with King based in large part on their environmental practices.

Taking into account all of the manufacture costs, what frame material is best for environment? I know titanium is rediculously bad, but what about the other materials like carbon?

Being enviromentally concsious is great, but I think this is a minor area to apply those principles. Why not buy the bike you like, then purchase energy credits to compensate? Or maybe sell you car? Maybe get an energy efficiency rating for your house and follow thru with the suggested changes? (I need to do this)

 

[LaharDesign]

If we use the best structural material available for everything we make we can also take carbon out of the atmosphere and polymers like resins and carbon have a pretty low energy input for manufacture. You can make great high strength, high temp polymers straight out of atmospheric co2 as a point of fact.(eg polyketones)
the energy input to melt and reform an alloy frame even once let alone 100+ times for the fatigue life of carbon, which even if you break it you can repair in five min on the kitchen table for the energy input of a few toast crumbs.
We should turn all the earths excess surface carbon into useful long life high performance materials

 

[boomerbaird]

Kind of silly to be looking for an enviromentally sensitive frame... how much do you drive your car? Ride a bike more and use the downhill bike like it is meant to. Been to whistler? Where does the electricity come from to run the lifts? I pretty much ride my bike for all trips, drive my car across the country and live in it for the summer in the whistler parking lot. I go 60 to 90 days without driving my truck in the off season and drive it about 10 miles a week in whistler. (with realistic gas prices in canada you need to drive as little as you can.) The only reason I drive in whistler at all is the parking lot nazis that don't like to see you drinking beer with your buddies and running the propane grill!

Besides I want a frame manufacturer that runs on the blood of baby seals, saliva of female virgins, soylent green and of course belgina beer!!!!!!!!!

 

[ThePriceSeliger]

Besides I want a frame manufacturer that runs on the blood of baby seals, saliva of female virgins, soylent green and of course belgina beer!!!!!!!!!

Basically how I live my life, but with only the virgin thing.

 

[LaharDesign]

Kind of silly to be looking for an enviromentally sensitive frame... how much do you drive your car? Ride a bike more and use the downhill bike like it is meant to. Been to whistler? Where does the electricity come from to run the lifts? I pretty much ride my bike for all trips, drive my car across the country and live in it for the summer in the whistler parking lot. I go 60 to 90 days without driving my truck in the off season and drive it about 10 miles a week in whistler. (with realistic gas prices in canada you need to drive as little as you can.)

Highly commendable. Electric lifts get up to 100x as many people up the hill for the same hp x time as your truck I'd guess.

 

[sanjuro]

I never hold on to a bike for more than 3 years. Which got me thinking about the environmental cost of it all.

When I put together my wheels this year I went with King based in large part on their environmental practices.

Taking into account all of the manufacture costs, what frame material is best for environment? I know titanium is rediculously bad, but what about the other materials like carbon?

Just out of curiosity, how much do bike commute? Do you drive to work? To the grocery store? To the movies? To the trail?

I understand you want why you want to know about the manufacturing practices of the bikes. I also think it is funny how most hardcore bikers drive everywhere.

 

[RHmoto]

If we use the best structural material available for everything we make we can also take carbon out of the atmosphere and polymers like resins and carbon have a pretty low energy input for manufacture. You can make great high strength, high temp polymers straight out of atmospheric co2 as a point of fact.(eg polyketones)
the energy input to melt and reform an alloy frame even once let alone 100+ times for the fatigue life of carbon, which even if you break it you can repair in five min on the kitchen table for the energy input of a few toast crumbs.
We should turn all the earths excess surface carbon into useful long life high performance materials

Very true only problem is your design better keep up to date. Recyclability of carbon is next to nothing, can't really do anything with carbon fibers in a thermoset except grind it and try and use (carbon matrix?). Hope that changes though, I love building bikes and structural things out of carbon, just hope that it can be more effectively turned around someday. Lahar by the way I love the design of your dh bikes! What techniques do you use bladder models, RTM, etc?

 

[guero]

Kind of silly to be looking for an enviromentally sensitive frame... how much do you drive your car? Ride a bike more and use the downhill bike like it is meant to. Been to whistler? Where does the electricity come from to run the lifts? I pretty much ride my bike for all trips, drive my car across the country and live in it for the summer in the whistler parking lot. I go 60 to 90 days without driving my truck in the off season and drive it about 10 miles a week in whistler. (with realistic gas prices in canada you need to drive as little as you can.) The only reason I drive in whistler at all is the parking lot nazis that don't like to see you drinking beer with your buddies and running the propane grill!

Besides I want a frame manufacturer that runs on the blood of baby seals, saliva of female virgins, soylent green and of course belgina beer!!!!!!!!!

1. Don't drive a car. I ride or walk everywhere and take the bus when it's raining or snowing too hard.

2. Whistler and most of BC runs off of hydro-electric power. Greener energy

3. None of that has anything to do with the environmental impact of producing the frames and components we ride.

I'm not saying anything about anyone's environmental practices. I drove a car for 8 years almost 100 miles every day. After a while I got tired of sitting all the time paying so much money that I could otherwise put into bikes.

Choosing options that are truly easier on the environment is always a good idea. If the only change you ever make is a huge change you'll never change at all. You'll be 80, complaining about how hot it is and the good ol' days and how the government ruined the atmosphere, having never made an effort yourself.

What naysayers like yourself forget to consider is the impact that small changes have. If you switch to say mineral oil instead of DOT fluid in your choice of brakes you're probably not gonna save the world. But by becoming more aware of the impact substances like DOT have when they get into the water supply, by making that mental connection, you may go on to consider the environment on a more regular basis.

 

[Honus]

I feel pretty good about going 12 years with not driving a car once......
of course these days I have kids so that's not really an option. I do try and drive the least possible amount though. I would love to build an electric car (I wrote an engineering proposal for it 20 years ago) and install solar cells on my house but the funds just aren't there yet.

 

[sanjuro]

1. Don't drive a car. I ride or walk everywhere and take the bus when it's raining or snowing too hard.

2. Whistler and most of BC runs off of hydro-electric power. Greener energy

3. None of that has anything to do with the environmental impact of producing the frames and components we ride.

I'm not saying anything about anyone's environmental practices. I drove a car for 8 years almost 100 miles every day. After a while I got tired of sitting all the time paying so much money that I could otherwise put into bikes.

Choosing options that are truly easier on the environment is always a good idea. If the only change you ever make is a huge change you'll never change at all. You'll be 80, complaining about how hot it is and the good ol' days and how the government ruined the atmosphere, having never made an effort yourself.

What naysayers like yourself forget to consider is the impact that small changes have. If you switch to say mineral oil instead of DOT fluid in your choice of brakes you're probably not gonna save the world. But by becoming more aware of the impact substances like DOT have when they get into the water supply, by making that mental connection, you may go on to consider the environment on a more regular basis.

I appreciate your "disclosure". No one wants to hear environmental spoutings from a hyprocrite: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176359.

I think it is important to know where and how your bike parts are made as well. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143995.

It is a probably a good question to review manufacturing practices. I believe the problem is that the members of this site who know haven't chimed in yet....

 

[dhkid]

^^^ as regards to the shimano stuff everything besides xtr,xt,dura ace and ultegra is made in malaysia...

 

[guero]

Well I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any more info regarding the methods used in even just the assembly and manufacture of their products - be it frames, tires, whatever.

 

[LaharDesign]

Some people refer to aluminium as "crystalised electricity". Every atom of Al in the world required 3 energised electrons supplied to it to electrolise it out of oxide. Because NZ has clean hydro power we make most of the worlds aluminium out of Aussie bauxite ore. It takes something like 30% of our Whole Countrys power generation and wouldn't be economic if it wasn't heavily discounted and subsidised by the rest of us.

 

[LaharDesign]

Very true only problem is your design better keep up to date. Recyclability of carbon is next to nothing, can't really do anything with carbon fibers in a thermoset except grind it and try and use (carbon matrix?). Hope that changes though, I love building bikes and structural things out of carbon, just hope that it can be more effectively turned around someday. Lahar by the way I love the design of your dh bikes! What techniques do you use bladder models, RTM, etc?

Whatya mean out of date? the laws of physics don't change.
I used a molded internal bladder, resin transfer molding and water jacket heating/cooling in my softail tooling.
The dhv series has about 25 male and female mold parts (because accurate tolerances are needed inside and out) careful design and piston in cylinder type female parts allow external pressure to tighten the outside wrap as its squeezed.

 

[LaharDesign]

Some people refer to aluminium as "crystalised electricity". Every atom of Al in the world required 3 energised electrons supplied to it to electrolise it out of oxide. Because NZ has clean hydro power we make most of the worlds aluminium out of Aussie bauxite ore. It takes something like 30% of our Whole Countrys power generation and wouldn't be economic if it wasn't heavily discounted and subsidised by the rest of us.

I feel this post was misleading. Originally the Tiwai point aluminium smelter was commissioned because NZ had lots of clean hydro power. Now 50% of NZ's electricity is generated by fossils. So theres probably about a ton of oil burnt to make the average aluminium bike. I'd much rather the oil was turned into a half ton of carbon fibre.