[$tinkle]

Illinois moment of silence ruled unconstitutional

CHICAGO (AP) — A federal judge has ruled that a state law requiring a moment of silence in public schools across Illinois is unconstitutional, saying it crosses the line separating church and state.

"The statute is a subtle effort to force students at impressionable ages to contemplate religion," U.S. District Judge Robert W. Gettleman said in his ruling Wednesday.

The ruling came in a lawsuit designed to bar schools from enforcing the Illinois Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act. It was filed by talk show host Rob Sherman, an outspoken atheist, and his daughter, Dawn, a high school student.

got that? our kids are being told what they can & cannot think about

and how do you teach world history accurately without the "side effect" of contemplating religion, especially wrt conquests/wars?

 

[Westy]

I have to file this one under who the **** cares. Seriously, can't some wake up a moment earlier in the morning and have their moment of silence or reflection before coming into school? Isn't this something that parents should be encouraging and not the public education system? Once you organize the 'moment' it and force everyone to STFU it is indeed crossing the line. Our kids are too retarded as it is and Schools shouldn't' have to deal with this BS. How about an organized moment of math or spelling in the morning.

 

[JohnE]

Sherman is a career a$$hole...

 

[4xBoy]

Why does the Spanish inquisition not get taught, or the crusades?

If you are going to force religion lets talk about what it was used for, control.

 

[$tinkle]

stuff

i think your argument is more compelling than the aclu's (but perhaps not more legally robust). i kind of agree w/ you if for no other reason than the kids who would use it for the intended purpose have probably been contemplative already. isn't like mrs. crump is going to "inflict" a spiritual awakening for her 5th graders. and i think most kids would view the crusades and other religious based conflicts as "what a eff'd up time we lived in...all b/c of religion". a great fresco here, an awe-inspiring drawring there, a pile of corpses there....history as taught in public schools isn't kind to the supposed merits of religion.

and as that annoying adage goes: "as long as there's tests in school there will be prayer"

 

[Da Peach]

I used to have to pray every morning in school. In French! And look at me!11!!!

I also used to drink milk at a precise time every day.

(mull THAT one over!)

 

[sanjuro]

Illinois moment of silence ruled unconstitutionalgot that? our kids are being told what they can & cannot think about

and how do you teach world history accurately without the "side effect" of contemplating religion, especially wrt conquests/wars?

Did they close Catholic schools?

 

[$tinkle]

I used to have to pray every morning in school. In French! And look at me!11!!!

you made the baby allah cry?

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I received a lot of crap in HS for refusing to participate in tribal chants, videlicet:

1. The lord's prayer
2. The pledge of allegiance

 

[Silver]

Probably shouldn't have included "School Prayer Act" in the title of the legislation.

No one said Christians were smart...

 

[thcrob]

love it. Although I'm an atheist, this is just stupid. I love the contradiction with christianity vs "peaceful" religions.

http://www.startribune.com/local/17406054.html check that out if you want to see public funds hard at work....

btw, for those that dont know, there are prayers written on the walls (as soon as you walk in and on the hallways), the teachers book says "do not discuss what goes on in this school," and it's located in a building owned by http://www.masmn.org/ (also against the law, think of it as a school receiving tax money inside of a church).

 

[fortenndu]

I received a lot of crap in HS for refusing to participate in tribal chants, videlicet:

1. The lord's prayer
2. The pledge of allegiance

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

 

[Silver]

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

Like Timothy McVeigh...

 

[Westy]

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

A FREEDOM hating terr'ist.

 

[thcrob]

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

or an idiot who doesnt understand that in some countries if you did the same thing you would get in some serious trouble. People who grew up in America love to hate the liberties they take advantage of everyday. People who grew up with out the liberties Americans have love to hate the liberties they dont get everyday.

but this post is neither about "terrorist" or sheep who think it's cool to hate the country they live in because other people who are constantly watched on surveillance cameras do. It is about the idiocy of ruling a moment of silence unconstitutional.

 

[Damo]

A moment silence? For what exactly?

To me, a moment silence is to remember the dead.

 

[ohio]

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

Good point. I can see how that would inflict terror.

 

[ohio]

People who grew up in America love to hate the liberties they take advantage of everyday.

Like the liberty to not have someone else's religion imposed on you? Yeah, I fvckin' hate that liberty.

 

[thcrob]

Like the liberty to not have someone else's religion imposed on you? Yeah, I fvckin' hate that liberty.

I dont know where you live, but I've never been in the situation where I felt someone was imposing their religion on me (outside of church / family which eventually stopped).

A moment of silence is about as religious as eating dinner, lunch, or breakfast
with your friends.

Just because praying is usually silent, doesnt mean a moment of silence has to be used for prayer. Many atheists meditate (buddhist prayer) and don't consider it prayer. Why should a moment of silence in school, a place of reflection and thinking, be treated differently? If they said "now we pray for the lost one" instead of "lets give them a moment of silence [to reflect on how they impacted your life]" then I would see the religious issues.


I like how nobody read or acknowledged the muslim school being paid for with our tax dollars. Especially when the topic is about "seperation of church and state." Confirms the contradiction christianity faces.

Being an atheist doesnt mean you have to constantly put down people for their beliefs, if you try to explain your point and they dont listen, just walk away. Being an atheist is about bettering yourself and humanity, even though he's rather confrontational, read up on some Dawkins.

 

[sanjuro]

I dont know where you live, but I've never been in the situation where I felt someone was imposing their religion on me (outside of church / family which eventually stopped).

A moment of silence is about as religious as eating dinner, lunch, or breakfast
with your friends.

Just because praying is usually silent, doesnt mean a moment of silence has to be used for prayer. Many atheists meditate (buddhist prayer) and don't consider it prayer. Why should a moment of silence in school, a place of reflection and thinking, be treated differently? If they said "now we pray for the lost one" instead of "lets give them a moment of silence [to reflect on how they impacted your life]" then I would see the religious issues.


I like how nobody read or acknowledged the muslim school being paid for with our tax dollars. Especially when the topic is about "seperation of church and state." Confirms the contradiction christianity faces.

Being an atheist doesnt mean you have to constantly put down people for their beliefs, if you try to explain your point and they dont listen, just walk away. Being an atheist is about bettering yourself and humanity, even though he's rather confrontational, read up on some Dawkins.

No Yeshivas near your house?

 

[thcrob]

No Yeshivas near your house?

Not that I am aware of... However, locally the catholic school scene is VERY popular, I am fine with that, as everyone should be, since they are private institutions and require tuiton on par with universities. Where the line SHOULD be drawn is prayer in PUBLIC schools or schools funded by the government (which the Muslim school is). This is clearly an issue.

 

[ohio]

A moment of silence is about as religious as eating dinner, lunch, or breakfast
with your friends.

A school is not a place of worship. It is a place of learning. Allocating any amount of time out of the mandated school day for the practice (or non-practice) of any religion (or atheism) is the use of school resources and time for purposes of religious practice not education. Aside from the fact that this piece of legislation explicitly states that, it would be illegal even if it didn't.

This is very simple. Whether you're religious and want to pray, or an atheist and want to reflect, you do it on your own time. What, the other 16 hours of every weekday or 48 hours of every weekend aren't enough for you?

 

[ohio]

Where the line SHOULD be drawn is prayer in PUBLIC schools

Dude, make up your mind. You just wrote a multi-paragraph post defending mandated prayer in public schools. 4 posts in and you're already contradicting yourself.

 

[Samirol]

I don't care if you don't say the pledge, but it you don't stand and at least face the flag you're a god damn terrorist.

were you just being sarcastic about this?

People who grew up in America love to hate the liberties they take advantage of everyday. People who grew up with out the liberties Americans have love to hate the liberties they dont get everyday.

Do you think 9/11 happened because they hate our freedoms? REALLY?

 

[Defenestrated]

you're right, it isn't backlash from us involvement in the middle east, it is "because they hate our freedoms"

 

[manimal]

Like the liberty to not have someone else's religion imposed on you? Yeah, I fvckin' hate that liberty.

ok, fine. don't call it a moment of silence, call it a moment of respect. respect for those who came before you and gave you the freedom to debate this topic. respect for those who may have different views. respect for those who have the same views as you. maybe the kids could just stand there silently and think about how they can show respect to their teachers and elders; something that isn't done at all in this younger generation.

 

[Samirol]

ok, fine. don't call it a moment of silence, call it a moment of respect. respect for those who came before you and gave you the freedom to debate this topic. respect for those who may have different views. respect for those who have the same views as you. maybe the kids could just stand there silently and think about how they can show respect to their teachers and elders; something that isn't done at all in this younger generation.

teenagers being rebellious and disrespectful! This is something that clearly never happened before except in this generation!

Moment of silence is a euphemism for prayer essentially, it has been a way to get around the restrictions on prayer in schools.

 

[Defenestrated]

I'd bet money that the majority of those kids don't even care about a moment of silence or doing any respecting.

 

[$tinkle]

I'd bet money that the majority of those kids don't even care about a moment of silence or doing any respecting.

this.

seems to me this is a dad living out his regret-filled youth through his daughter, and his argument is patently false when he claims his daughter is "losing 30 valuable seconds of instruction that her academic competitors [where this is not practiced] are exploiting for gain". is he calling for the banishment of the pledge (which is recited @ her school) also? certainly not. that would be consistent.

i heard her interviewed today, and she sounds like a typical 15 y.o. girl, but who's been coached by her dad. she's bright, but drinking daddy's juice straight from the tap (shhhhhh....it's our little secret...)

just another michael newdow

 

[$tinkle]

Moment of silence is a euphemism for prayer essentially, it has been a way to get around the restrictions on prayer in schools.

"restrictions"? there's restrictions on the "...free exercise thereof"?

 

[Defenestrated]

my argument was to get rid of it based on the fact that nobody cares

 

[3D.]

ok, fine. don't call it a moment of silence, call it a moment of respect.

trying to rename it, while hoping that the youth use it for a different purpose, will not transform it from what it is.

a moment of silence has always been a code expression for prayer time

 

[X3pilot]

A school is not a place of worship. It is a place of learning. Allocating any amount of time out of the mandated school day for the practice (or non-practice) of any religion (or atheism) is the use of school resources and time for purposes of religious practice not education. Aside from the fact that this piece of legislation explicitly states that, it would be illegal even if it didn't.

This is very simple. Whether you're religious and want to pray, or an atheist and want to reflect, you do it on your own time. What, the other 16 hours of every weekday or 48 hours of every weekend aren't enough for you?

This statement made me wonder if this should be applied to businesses as well that have been sued to take time out of the production day to allow workers to practice thier religious beliefs?

 

[MountainDrew]

I find it amusing how the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Baptist minister.....

 

[X3pilot]

trying to rename it, while hoping that the youth use it for a different purpose, will not transform it from what it is.

a moment of silence has always been a code expression for prayer time

No, it has not. For the most part, observing a moment of silence is called for upon notification of someone's passing. It is meant as a gesture of respect for the deceased and their family/friends. Much like the old tradition down South of pulling over on the side of the road when a funeral procession passes by.

A moment of silence in school may have been used to replace a moment of prayer, but don't generalize what Manimal was saying.

On a side note, it's been mentioned before but all these church and state critics don't seem to mind buying their Starbucks and road bikes with currency that has god all over it..

 

[ohio]

This statement made me wonder if this should be applied to businesses as well that have been sued to take time out of the production day to allow workers to practice thier religious beliefs?

What part of "state" do you not understand? A business can do whatever it wants to achieve more profit.

Additionally, there is nothing wrong with giving everyone a break to do as they see fit. Schools already do this - there are several breaks and recesses throughout the day. There is also nothing wrong with providing students or workers facilities where they can find a quiet space. Again, schools already do this - libraries. Given that, there is no possible reason for this legislation except specifically practice of religion. If the schools want to extend the mandatory break time 60 seconds great. If they want to expand libraries, great. If they want to provide more semi-private study space great. All of that will provide more opportunity for prayer during the school day, yet somehow I think the folks behind this legislation would be opposed to any of it.

 

[ohio]

On a side note, it's been mentioned before but all these church and state critics don't seem to mind buying their Starbucks and road bikes with currency that has god all over it..

Are you serious? Of course they (we) do, but it's called picking your ****ing battles.

 

[thcrob]

Ohio, I didnt contradict myself. Moment of silence is NOT prayer. I said that earlier, it's a time of reflection. Also, other guy, I didnt make the connection between 9/11 and terrorists hating our freedoms, how did you come to that conclusion?
Back to ohio, you say you dont like your tax dollars funding religion? What is your view towards the muslim school getting tax money for funding? How do you feel about your tax dollars going towards multiple TEACHER LED / FORCED PRAYER SESSIONS PER DAY. Is that ok because it's not Christianity?
By telling people they can't have a moment of silence, (3-10 seconds in which to do what they wish) because you think it's prayer and you dont like prayer because it's forcing their religious beliefs on you, are you not forcing your religious beliefs on other people?

 

[thcrob]

Also, the currency thing is an issue, but I really dont care about it. People make the commom mistake in assuming that America was founded with Christianity in mind (not the case). As a matter of fact, many of the founders of this nation were deists. They left England because being a non-christian was taboo and they wanted to practice their own beliefs.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Also, other guy, I didnt make the connection between 9/11 and terrorists hating our freedoms, how did you come to that conclusion?

uh....this is how...

People who grew up with out the liberties Americans have love to hate the liberties they dont get everyday.

9/11: perpetrated by people not born in US = love to hate our liberties


^^ I'd say that's a pretty good extrapolation of your quote.

But maybe the thc is getting to you...