Been thinkg that a HT would be a completely different experience for light DH and Freeride and not sure what frames to look at. I don't think I would want a DJ frame. Maybe a frame that takes a 140 to 160mm fork? Looking to take it up to Diablo and just play around on it. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I have a Transition TransAm but don't think that would be the right bike either?
HT for light DH and Freeride?
- Thread starter shift96
- Start date
If you really want to ride the trails and not just the few smooth trails a HT is a really bad idea.
I'm ad advocate of HT for light DH and freeride. Some thoughts on it in this thread:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3478626
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3478626
I have been in Whistler twice on a HT and will never do that again. You just get way more safety with suspension. When it comes to Diablo its just so rocky that a HT would be bounced around way to much for what I think is fun.
I just built up a Cro-Mo Brodie Heathen and am digging it. I have always been a sucker for a Hard-Tail. I grew up riding and racing in the early 90's so it may be a nostalgia thing. It also feels really good when you can keep up with yours buds on their FS rigs. Not to mention the added benefit of making you learn better line choice!
Sinister Ridge. My HT always reminds me what it used to be like before we all went soft.
This vid makes a pretty strong case for riding a hardtail at Whistler (in this instance a Cromag; damn nice frames btw) being just fine.
Safer ... at one time everyone rode all kinds of crazy steep, ultra rocky stuff on hardtails or rigid bikes. Trails with all kinds of features get built now because the ultra shape skiis of the bike world now exist. And those bikes are fun for sure; but a lot of riders are rediscovering the fun of riding the "gnar" with a hardtail.
^^^^^Wow that guy rips. I have ridden all that on my Last DH hardtail the Norco Manik with a Manitou Travis DC and it was a white knuckle but fun experience. Even hit some clown shoes and in deep. MMMMMMMMMMMMMM Whistler.
A bunch of us here at Spooky have been riding DH on our slalom hardtails recently, mostly at Highland. It's fun, and great if you're as broke as I am. Look for a bike with a lower bb and a slacker head angle built around a 5" fork. When you get the numbers right, the only thing that holds you back is the fact that you have less grip than you would on an FS bike.
Long travel forks suck. Too much geometry change, especially inconsistent weight distribution and a big difference in grip front to back are my biggest complaints.
Long travel forks suck. Too much geometry change, especially inconsistent weight distribution and a big difference in grip front to back are my biggest complaints.
Well put... definitely agree here.
I'll add:
Use the beefiest tires you have. DH tires are of course preferable. A nice fat one on the back helps a lot. I recall being able to fit a 2.5" Highroller on the back of my Nicolai 2MX.
My Evil Imperial with Monster T is almost completed!!
Man great info. Any frames you would suggest?
I'm surprised that Rigidhack hasn't chimed in.... That boy rocks Whistler on his Ridge at times.
I plan on rocking my Ridge/Pike SS at Highland, its all about skills. I see high dollar bikes with douche bag pilots who can't do ****. Bottom line is you gots' to know how to ride a bike and pick good lines.
I do roll Whistler and the Shore on my Ridge/Lyrik setup and I love it. In Deep in the wet absolutely rocks on a hard tail -so much fun! Besides, there is a tremendous kind of satisfaction rolling into the steep gnar (like Captain Safety or Lower Joyride) while all the kids in their TLD are sitting around deciding if they have the stones to go, or walking the section.
If I was looking for a new HT, I'd go straight to either a Ridge (aluminum) or a Chromag Stylus (CrMo). The Transition Vagrant, if you can find one, has really similar geometry to the older Ridges (like mine). Put a Pike or Lyrik on any of those and you are all set. Personally, I could ever get the Pike to feel right - always dove too much for my liking. Love the Lyrik though.
It is a good idea to run 2.5s. I think the Ridge has 2.6s on it right now ('cause that was what was on sale).
If I was looking for a new HT, I'd go straight to either a Ridge (aluminum) or a Chromag Stylus (CrMo). The Transition Vagrant, if you can find one, has really similar geometry to the older Ridges (like mine). Put a Pike or Lyrik on any of those and you are all set. Personally, I could ever get the Pike to feel right - always dove too much for my liking. Love the Lyrik though.
It is a good idea to run 2.5s. I think the Ridge has 2.6s on it right now ('cause that was what was on sale).
Is the sinister ridge similiar to a Transition TransAm? This is all new to me, this HT DH stuff
The new Ridge is very similar to the TransAm. The geometry has changed over the past few years. My Ridge has 1.5* slacker HA (67*) and a 1.5 heat tube. The geo on the Stylus looks spot on for a DH/FR hardtail. Plus its steel. And steel is cool.
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Hmmmm, looks just about right with a little TLC and a few parts swaps.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195516
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195516
If funds are tight have a look at Ragley frames they are well priced and are similar to an On-One Inbred 456 but look to be a bit more sturdy and the BB height may be slightly lower.
buy my small black Trans AM only ridden a handful of times, 250$+ shipping.Frame: Make sure it's slack enough. You have nice variety of fr-dh hardtails today. About DJ frames: Some DJ frames are more than capable for FR. P3 can be awesome FR hardtail, just make sure it has 180 mm fork.
Fork: Go with 180 or 200 mm, you'll get much better ride. I had 180 mm fork on my DMR exalt(which is amazing bike btw) and it feels perfect, better than previous 160 mm fork.
Geometry change was spot on, bike rides better now, I've never noticed inconsistent weight distribution or a big difference in grip front to back.
Tires: 2-ply!!!
if you are actually using that 200mm fork to anywhere near it's potential what are you running for a rear wheel? a 48 hole doubletrack?
I'm with suspect device. for me big forks and sky high BBs on hardtails just feel **** - for me all that sag and travel just kills the directness and manouverability of a hardtail! quality over quantity
I'm with suspect device. for me big forks and sky high BBs on hardtails just feel **** - for me all that sag and travel just kills the directness and manouverability of a hardtail! quality over quantity
Would you put a 130 mm fork on a DH-FR specific bike, as suspect_device is suggesting? Now take that bike and keep up with your riding buddies with FS fr and dh rigs on proper dh track and report back then. Have you ever ridden a fr hardtail with long travel fork on a proper DH track?I'm with suspect device. for me big forks and sky high BBs on hardtails just feel **** - for me all that sag and travel just kills the directness and manouverability of a hardtail! quality over quantity
You should try, you'll be amased how direct and maneuverable they are, even with DC downhill fork.
I say a good DH geo, 130/160mm fork, and steel would be a great set up. I have had a 170mm fork on my hard tail but 140mm felt better.
I like the steel because you have a little but of give on the drops. I have rode Lynn woods (flattish drops to rock) on both Alu and steel on the same drops and the steel had much more give.
Oh that dude in the vid is smoooooth.
I like the steel because you have a little but of give on the drops. I have rode Lynn woods (flattish drops to rock) on both Alu and steel on the same drops and the steel had much more give.
Oh that dude in the vid is smoooooth.
no, I'm actually even more against running a long travel fork on a hardtail than him.. I'd put a 100mm fork on it, and I'd struggle a little to keep up when it gets properly choppy then catch up again on the tight sprinty pumpy, twisty parts.
I ride a tough little hardtail as a do everything bike (XC, jump, DH) and even though it has coil U-turn Pikes that could be wound out to 140mm I always leave them at 95mm as I prefer the handling.
Yes, I raced two seasons on a hardtail in '95 and '96 (although 100mm was long travel then) and have also ridden DH in the alps on a 100mm hardtail jump bike I had with me (after I snapped my DH bike).
Sorry, I have tried plenty long travel "DH" hardtails and don't agree.
I dig what you are saying but ask yourself why.
Travel isn't as important as ratios. The position of your contact points relative to the hubs and bottom bracket is much more important. Good weight distribution and plenty of front center are the key components of a hardtail that isn't terrifying at speed. Lowering your center of gravity means more grip. It also means less pump and less pop. Grip v. pop is the main thing you take into consideration when designing a hardtail for aggressive use. The front center you get from a long fork is what you are feeling so good about. You get get a similar front center with a lower bb and shorter fork.
67 degrees with a firm 100-120mm fork is going to be more stable than 67 degrees with more travel. Just like a full suspension design, chassis stability is key. Too much travel, when properly sprung, throws off the way the bike feels- the deeper you get into the travel the more things change and the less ability you have to move your center of mass to change direction or unload the vehicle.
Turning the bike is just as important(I'd posit more important) than going in a straight line. You are always going to go slower than a DH bike down the fall line- but a hardtail that is dialed in can schralp real hard through the corners.
As long as you can keep air in your tires you can beast through some unfriendly terrain. You've got to look farther forward and plan where and how you will gap stuff, but the loaded vehicle will have plenty of stability. You just need to ride it on the throttle pinned at the rev-limiter. Brrrap.
Any way we cut it, we're talking about bringing knives to a gunfight. Even if you bring a sword, you're still going to get your ass kicked.
It's a classic case of Ninja v. Chuck Norris.
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Good info. Thanks for the reply
I had a U-Turn Pike (95-140mm) on my Ridge and could never get it to feel right. I tried it at every travel setting from 95-140. IMO, the bike did not come alive until I put the Lyrik (160mm) on it. I do run the Lyrik quite stiff. Then again, I also know that the model year of the frame I have was designed with a Sherman Breakout (170mm) in mind. I suppose I could try it with the Totem, but it is a hassle to change over since my Lyrik is 1.5 and my Totem tapered, and I don't have a headset press handy. I also suspect that the bigger fork would mess with the geo/bb height too much.
I also have a Gary Fisher PhD frame around (ugly as sin, but a wicked fun bike to ride) and when it was together, anything over 120mm felt wrong.
In the end you really need to match the fork to the frame. Go by feel, not by numbers. It would be good to have access to a long travel but adjustable fork to test out different travel lengths/AC heights to find the "sweet spot" for your frame.
I also have a Gary Fisher PhD frame around (ugly as sin, but a wicked fun bike to ride) and when it was together, anything over 120mm felt wrong.
In the end you really need to match the fork to the frame. Go by feel, not by numbers. It would be good to have access to a long travel but adjustable fork to test out different travel lengths/AC heights to find the "sweet spot" for your frame.
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Thanks for all the help from you and everyone who chimed in. this thread is turing out real useful
I'm still a fan of 160mm forks on hardtails however I do like them set up with a fair bit of sag. You will also find you will move your bodyweight around on a hardtail. I tend to get off the back of the bike a bit through the rougher sections and you move your weight forward when you get to corners so you are in a similar position to being on a dually. If you set your forks up with a lot of sag it is smooth in the chop and steep enough for switchbacks.
I have found any air sprung fork I own end up witha few mL of oil in the air spring to allow me to run lots of sag and not bottom harshly. Some people won't like this at it may be hard to get your rebound set correctly.
I have found any air sprung fork I own end up witha few mL of oil in the air spring to allow me to run lots of sag and not bottom harshly. Some people won't like this at it may be hard to get your rebound set correctly.