Iron Horse Licenses Ellsworth's Suspension
- Thread starter ryebread
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- i lov tony rip ih
Probably. It's easy for me to see by using IH/DWlink as a perfect example. People rave about DW's suspension design while bitching about IronHorse's manufacturing shortcomings and attention to detail. Easy to separate the two on paper (or web) but it's the total package that makes a bike and a satisfied customer. IH is actually just buying the 1 good piece of Ellsworth's puzzle.I think we're talking about the same thing
I agree 100% with that. That is why I ride an Intense M6 when I could have picked up a 2008 Santa Cruz V-10 for half the price.
ahahhaaha suckas!!!
Did Special Ed ever sue Ellsworth for infringement on FSR?
you honestly think the DW link pedals better than Ellsworth's ICT? have you even riden a Ellsworth?
i sold my soul again.. i see you frequent here a bit
Hmmm interesting! If this is true I'm definitely looking forward to test riding the new Sunday! I own an Ellsworth Epiphany (5 inch full sus XC frame) and absolutely love how it rides, pedals unbelievably efficiently with zero bob but feels excellent on the downhills, suspension feels really nice, tracks beutifully and the rear stays active while braking. I've also got a 2007 Sunday and can't fault it, will be very very interesting to see how they both compare!!
I assumed that Ellsworth was licensing the FSR/Horst Link and that "ICT" was just his marketing term for the exact placements of all four pivots. Do Ellsworth bikes not use the FSR patent? My understanding of the FSR patent was that it describes a pivot located on the chainstay and within a couple inches of the rear axle. Hence, "Faux Bar" bikes like Kona.
For that matter, does anyone care to explain what makes a bike fall under the DW Link patent or not (Giant Maestro)?
The one thing I can add is that VPP specifically patents counter-rotating links.
For that matter, does anyone care to explain what makes a bike fall under the DW Link patent or not (Giant Maestro)?
The one thing I can add is that VPP specifically patents counter-rotating links.
well ellsworth actually describes ICT by saying the pain pivot essentially tracks the chain force line which intern will help propel the bike foward...but essentially its a 4bar
HAHA, bashing Ellsworth is the only thing easier to do than E-stroking DW. Sam Hill or Frasier.
Ellsworth frames are horst link frames that, IMHO, infringe on the horst link patent, but TE has protected it with his lame ICT patent/shady workaround. If you pay a lawyer enough you can probably get a patent issued that infringes on both...
As sue happy SpecEd has been in the past about stupid things like "Stumptown" and their sharky business practices I'm surprised they haven't gutted Ellsworth.
Rumor mill is spinning that Ellsworth (the company) is bleeding and needs this to stay afloat for a little while longer. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned.
amen to that. I hope that rat bastard TE is listening in on this.
So, like, ahh where is this bandwagon everyone keeps raving about?That was the "Pre" Bandwagon edition. If Sam Hill did really sign with them, the Demo just became........... The Best Bike Ever!!!!!
At least for next year
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
And who is the band, cos if its like some trendy pop band with no talent yet a good producer, then I aint jumping on the wagon!
If its Iron Maiden though, bring it oooooonnn!!:biggrin:
He can't hear over the sound of cracking swingarms.
back when the flowriders were on ellesworth they were ripping through them (on the jokers) with awesome regularity. spares were always kept close at hand. i actually watched cracks propagate in a brand new arm on klassen's bike over the course of a single day @ whistler (and another completely fold on another ride). the dares held up better in the rear, though the fronts cracked readily - the front gusset would crack in several places & pieces would actually fall off. amusingly enough, they had bolt-on gusset covers later that year at interbike (ostensibly to reinforce the area, or at least keep metal fragments from littering the trail, rather than redesign the problem area).
for what it's worth, the dare suspension seemed to work pretty well. given proper implementation, the new ih's could be decent bikes.
Interesting topic blood all over the place!
ICT does not directly have anything to do with Horst Link pivot!
ICT is instant center tracking the pivot point which the rearward path supposedly is the most efficient! This point is located forward of the front wheel on Ellsworth bikes according to his marketing info where as similar HL or four bar designs are center of wheel or behind the front wheel!
Ellsworth moved its pivot point on the chain stay in 04 some will argue that its not a true HL I dunno its all patent talk which dos my head in, Ive had 2 Ellsworth bikes and they rode nice better than others I dunno certainly at the time they did ride very well Ive ridden single pivots that ride every bit as good! Ridden DW and Ive liked that too!
Ive always understood it that this is why Ellsworth haven't had to pay a license to Specialised, who knows with e-speculation though more likely too small for Specialised to concern themselves.
Difference is with most things numbers geo, execution and quality, which I had no problems with everything was well aligned and constructed which at the prices they should be,maybe harder for a big OEM to duplicate! Ellsworth numbers imo are very XC based as are his designs just one of the reasons I changed direction!
Be interesting to see where this goes! though it does seem like the IH Battleship has crashed into an Ellsworth iceberg!
ICT does not directly have anything to do with Horst Link pivot!
ICT is instant center tracking the pivot point which the rearward path supposedly is the most efficient! This point is located forward of the front wheel on Ellsworth bikes according to his marketing info where as similar HL or four bar designs are center of wheel or behind the front wheel!
Ellsworth moved its pivot point on the chain stay in 04 some will argue that its not a true HL I dunno its all patent talk which dos my head in, Ive had 2 Ellsworth bikes and they rode nice better than others I dunno certainly at the time they did ride very well Ive ridden single pivots that ride every bit as good! Ridden DW and Ive liked that too!
Ive always understood it that this is why Ellsworth haven't had to pay a license to Specialised, who knows with e-speculation though more likely too small for Specialised to concern themselves.
Difference is with most things numbers geo, execution and quality, which I had no problems with everything was well aligned and constructed which at the prices they should be,maybe harder for a big OEM to duplicate! Ellsworth numbers imo are very XC based as are his designs just one of the reasons I changed direction!
Be interesting to see where this goes! though it does seem like the IH Battleship has crashed into an Ellsworth iceberg!
You sure are emphatic.
And..
Haha! It's ALL about marketing hype in the bike industry.
It's kinda fun to see companies marketing their superior technology be it DW, ICT, FSR VPP. Heck IH has marketed FSR, DW and now ICT as superior. What does that really tell us?
Each of them claim superiority but with nothing to back it up other than textbook theory. I'm sure there is something good in each and every design but it is all in the implementation of a particular design that makes a bike ride well regardless of linkage.
...I like titties.
to that..see tittle
freudian slip?
So what did happen to Maxxis-Ellsworth?
I'm not claiming to be the expert on this, and I could be wrong, but I read up on the DW link patent because I wanted to see how my new Banshee Legend got around it.
From what I can tell, the DW link is specific in how the Instant Center (IC) tracks. In the beginning of the travel, it is high and forward. Towards the end of the travel, the IC intersects the lower link.
In Giant / Maestro designs, the IC starts on the lower link (rather than high and forward), therefore avoiding the patent.
On the Legend, the IC never intersects the lower link, also avoiding the patent.
Don't quote that as law though...
Sorry for sidetracking the thread.
Ellsworth pays specialized, but they have a deal worked out so that they don't have to advertise it. A few people have had fairly convincing stories about this, regarding their dealings with ellsworth employees. That makes the most sense, seeing as the ICT is a horst link. Specialized adopted the same arrangement that "ict" has on several of their bikes over the years, it wouldn't be hard for S to take down E on this issue, so there must be a deal (as several people have reported).
Jm - interesting, I was going to say that I'm positive I've seen numerous reputable statements that Ellsworth is indeed paying Specialized over the use of the Horst link, but as I actually poked around Ellsworth's website I couldn't find anything, and the only other references I've seen are vague.
The law search engines don't turn up anything either so it wasn't a legal case.
The law search engines don't turn up anything either so it wasn't a legal case.
I've seen Ellsworth bikes with the little "FSR specialized" nonsense on inside the seatstays that specialized makes everyone else print.
Sooooooo, Ellsworth is paying hush money to Spec. who was getting paid by IH pre DW Link and now IH is paying Ellsworth who is still paying Spec.
Makes perfect sense.
Makes perfect sense.
But wait, I read on the internetz that Karl Nicolai invented the horst link...so who pays him? Nazi Germany is some how responsible for all of this, I am sure.
who are in turn dumping all that money into their road teams, who are in turn spending all of that money on newer higher quality drugs.
Support IH. Support drugs.
Support IH. Support drugs. Support terrorism.
Now this is getting fun.
Now this is getting fun.