[Xterradork]

I've only been riding MTB for a year now. Made the switch from road
triathlon to XTERRA off-road races this year. Bought a lower end
Iron Horse hardtail and it's been a blast. But at 40, I'm starting to feel the effects
of Aluminium on trails loaded with rocks and roots.

So, I don't have the cash for a good FS frame (one that doesn't weight 7 or more lbs)
but I keep hearing that going with a Reynolds
853 or good Chro-moly frame, that I would notice a big difference
in ride quality. I've swapped out everything that matters on my
current bike (wheels from OEM to Mavic Crossrides, shifter and ders
to SRAM X-9 with twist shifters, good quality cranks, etc.) but the
frame is still harsh. Any ideas of something that won't break the bank?
I found what looks like a great deal at Nashbar (the Signature
853 frame for $289) http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=130&subcategory=1176&brand=&sku=17655&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop by Subcat: Frames/Bikes
and I was looking at the Zion 660.

Any opinions are welcomed.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Just because it's steel doesn't mean the ride will be any less harsh. Get a used fully, Old Man!

 

[Dirty]

well i know a couple guys on this board have each of those frames, so hopefully they will chime in.
but by the looks of it, they have slightly different geometries, so i would go with what suits you best.
Looks like the TT on the zion is a hair longer, head angle is a little steeper, and its a little lighter...

other than that i cant give any kind of info on ride quality b/w the two...

 

[Trainwreck]

I have a 853 steel frame on my single speed and it is plush. It's noticeably more comfortable than my aluminum hardtail.

 

[mud'n'sweat]

A good steel frame will provide a HUGE difference in ride Q over Alu. I considered the nash 853 model but ended up going with a Kona Explosif for the sliding rear drops. Currently running SS but have the option for geared if I want to. This frame rides like a dream and I rarely ride my 5" fully anymore.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Ride properties and material are a very, very flimsy correlation.
Any framebuilder worth their salt can make a bike that is comfortable no matter what the material. Just as a dolt can make a bike out of any material that is uncomfortable. Your tire selection and pressure and seatpost diameter and flex properties are the single biggest things that contribute to the ride of a hardtail. Since you are a tri-geek I will make the gross generalization that you ride tires that are excessively hard and narrow. Higher volume lower pressure tires aren't just more comfortable, they are also faster and more efficent!

I am unsure what your seatpost size is, but if it is larger than 27.2 purchase a quality TI seatpost and use a shim to run it on your bike.


(the smoothest riding hardtail I have ever ridden is made out of 3 pounds of straight gauge 6061 aluminum, and the two least comfortable were hi-end frames made out of very fancy steel (a Fat Chance and a IF) Both the steel bikes used large diameter seatposts that really ruined the ride, and also had tapered, butted chain and seatstayss that were not as damped as a heavier straight gauge tube.

 

[jennyooooo]

i am a big fan of steel....i totally agree that if the bike is made shoddy then it doesn't matter what it's made of.....but i have had my IF for about 6 years now and i plan on riding that until it falls apart.....i do 24 races so i put a suspension seat post on it so it makes the long rides a little sweeter on my bum....i would never go back to aluminum......i think its too twitchie and way to harsh for me......just not a fan......all my bikes are steel and thats the way i like it......i feel like i have control with feeling like my upper body is getting wrecked taking the terrain of the woods or the street.......

 

[mud'n'sweat]

Your tire selection and pressure and seatpost diameter and flex properties are the single biggest things that contribute to the ride of a hardtail. Since you are a tri-geek I will make the gross generalization that you ride tires that are excessively hard and narrow. Higher volume lower pressure tires aren't just more comfortable, they are also faster and more efficent!

I'd like to know more behind this idea. I ride high volume tires with lower pressures and love the feel, but I always felt like it was a trade off and provided less effeciency due to poor rolling resistance and added weight. What is the theory here? Is it less slippage only, or more involved than that?

 

[reflux]

Lots of good info

This would explain why I love the ride of my Dean 853 hardtail, but can't stand the ride of my Sycip Foco hardtail. Hehe, however, I've been told the Dean is flexy as hell, and the Sycip is considered normal.

 

[MikeD]

Sounds like you might be a candidate for a softtail frame.

That's a pivotless frame which incorporates a shock of some sort (typically a very simple one) to enhance the vertical compliance of the rear end. Meant to still feel like a hardtail, but take the edge off. It's kind of archaic, but if the shoe fits...

That is, if there's one in your pricepoint...I thought Jamis or someone did a cheap one...and I think Curtlo made them custom for a rather decent price.

But in general, you could find a decent used f/s frame, which might give you advantages which overcome the weight. (ie, you can climb better on a good f/s, as you can sit and spin over reasonably rough stuff rather than playing the hardtail traction-shuffle. Which can be fun, but less efficient...)

MD

 

[MtnbikeMike]

I'd like to know more behind this idea. I ride high volume tires with lower pressures and love the feel, but I always felt like it was a trade off and provided less effeciency due to poor rolling resistance and added weight. What is the theory here? Is it less slippage only, or more involved than that?

The idea is that the tire will absorb small bumps instead of converting your forward motion into upward motion. Think of the energy it takes to lift you and your bike up. Or just think of riding a rigid bike through braking bumps vs. riding a suspended one; same idea only on a smaller scale. I race XC on Maxxis Crossmark's at 28-32psi in the front and ~37 in the rear.

 

[noskcaj]

I ride a kona with tange prestige tubing. It also is a 94 with small diameter tubing and a carbon seatpost. In my opinion it rides much smoother than my old scott aluminum frame and just has this springy, fun quality to it. I also have a sid sl on the front, so it is a pretty flexy bike, but it still can handle rock gardens like a charm.

I think proper geometry is more important than the tubing actually. If the bike fits you right and is fun to ride, then you will enjoy that much more than a supple ride with wacked geometry.

 

[mud'n'sweat]

The idea is that the tire will absorb small bumps instead of converting your forward motion into upward motion. Think of the energy it takes to lift you and your bike up. Or just think of riding a rigid bike through braking bumps vs. riding a suspended one; same idea only on a smaller scale. I race XC on Maxxis Crossmark's at 28-32psi in the front and ~37 in the rear.

That makes a lot of sense. I have been wanting a smooth rolling tire with decent volume but have yet to try the crossmarks. I take it you recommend them? Do the size offerings vary? If so, which ones have you found to like?

 

[MtnbikeMike]

That makes a lot of sense. I have been wanting a smooth rolling tire with decent volume but have yet to try the crossmarks. I take it you recommend them? Do the size offerings vary? If so, which ones have you found to like?

I'm running 2.1's, not sure if other sizes are available. For reference, it's the same volume as a 2.0 Larsen TT and a 2.0 Michelin Jet S, and a bit bigger then last year's Michelin XCR Dry. I love the tire; it rolls well, corners well, and it's high volume gives a very cushy ride.

 

[Xterradork]

Since you are a tri-geek I will make the gross generalization that you ride tires that are excessively hard and narrow. Higher volume lower pressure tires aren't just more comfortable, they are also faster and more efficent!

I currently ride on Kenda Kenatics 2.35. The frame at the top of my
list right now is the Zion 660, which does use a 27.2 seatpost, however
my current hardtail (Iron Horse Maverick SE) uses a 30.8.

Also, I run my tires around 38 psi.

 

[mud'n'sweat]

Also, I run my tires around 38 psi.

You could stand to drop down to 28psi with no worries. I typically run right around 28 unless I'm on some extremely sharp baby heads that consistantly lead to pinch flats. Then I may go up to about 35psi.

 

[Mike B.]

For what it's worth, I know the guy that designed the Nashbar/Peformance 853 frame and it comes from the same factory as the Rocky Mountain steel bikes. That does not mean it would ride the same or be of the same quality, just a data point.

 

[SkaredShtles]

You could stand to drop down to 28psi with no worries. I typically run right around 28 unless I'm on some extremely sharp baby heads that consistantly lead to pinch flats. Then I may go up to about 35psi.

Jeezus. I'd pinch flat every ride if I ran my tires that low.

 

[mud'n'sweat]

Jeezus. I'd pinch flat every ride if I ran my tires that low.

How large a volume tire are you running? I run Mutano 2.4's, Diesel 2.5's and Sturdy 2.25's (which are actually almost the largest of the three). Depending on the trail, I can typically get away with 28psi easy. My home stomping ground is GWNF (where the SM100 is held). Half the trails I can run this pressure, the other half I typically have to run 35-38psi. When I use to live in Crested Butte I was able to run 28-30psi almost exclusively on all the local trails.

 

[MikeD]

With an XC tire, (in the 2.3-2.4 range) I'd pinchflat anything under 40 PSI, and even then I'd have to be careful.

With DH tires, I still ran 28 lbs or so and flatted occasionally.

I weigh a whopping 160, too.

 

[SkaredShtles]

How large a volume tire are you running? I run Mutano 2.4's, Diesel 2.5's and Sturdy 2.25's (which are actually almost the largest of the three). Depending on the trail, I can typically get away with 28psi easy. My home stomping ground is GWNF (where the SM100 is held). Half the trails I can run this pressure, the other half I typically have to run 35-38psi. When I use to live in Crested Butte I was able to run 28-30psi almost exclusively on all the local trails.

I've got a 2.35 Zmax on the front and a 2.1 on the back. I run 40lbs out back and 35 up front. I have no idea how large the volume is on those.

 

[mud'n'sweat]

With an XC tire, (in the 2.3-2.4 range) I'd pinchflat anything under 40 PSI, and even then I'd have to be careful.

I don't know what to tell you, you're the first person I have ever heard say that. At 40 psi you are in for one bumpy bouncy ride.

 

[MikeD]

I run UST tubeless at around 35 PSI now and am very happy.