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Is the USA in Decline

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Not a USA-bashing exercise, more an attempt to view the current situation in an historical context:

http://www.globalcomplexity.org/USA%20in%20Decline.htm

Quote:

Wallerstein suggests there had been three hegemonic powers in modern history: the United Provinces in the Netherlands (mid-17th century), the United Kingdom (mid-19th century) and the USA (mid-20th century). Other scholars (e.g. Paul Kennedy) include Imperial Spain (1580 to 1630) in the list. Clearly, the dates are approximate but they are significant in one key sense: hegemonic powers come and then eventually go.

...........

Several authors have described the process that hegemonies traverse in the lead up to the acquisition of the status of undisputed power and then the inevitable downward slide when that power ebbs away. Paul Kennedy, in The Rise and Fall of Great Powers published in 1987, detailed the pattern of change and the factors that drive it forward. More recently, in 2002, several contributors considered the same topic in Two Hegemonies, edited by O'Brien and Clesse. Almost all scholars agree on one point at least: these are very lengthy transformations. By the end of the 19th century British hegemony was over, but it is still a military and economic power to be reckoned with. It is equally important to stress that the analysis focuses on relative changes in power distribution. America might have been in decline since the late-1960s, but it is only because it lost some power in relation to others who have gained some influence, especially in the economic arena. The fact remains that the USA is by far the most powerful country on most fronts and will continue to be so for some years yet.

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Fairly long article but an interesting read.
 

JerseyDave

monkey wrestler
Apr 9, 2002
132
0
Stowe, VT
Absolutely. Undeniable. History as our example, we are Britan in the 19th century, reliant on forein resources, military streched thin attempting to institute our own perverted form of Christianity in the middle east, ruling class detaches from the common man, Gov. actively propagandizing it's citizens, exploiting the system for their own personal gain. You could also say we are Nazi Germany 1935. Fascist state, expansionist forign policy, pissing off then entire world, led by a small group of fanatics. China, IMO, would be USA 1935. Man power, manufacturing power, how hard would it be for China to turn their growing industrial complex into a military Goliath? Not very. Just as factories that made can openers were suddenly making air planes in the US after we dove into WWII. We are fat, Lazy, and ignorant....ripe for the picking.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Interestingly China may have a big problem in around 15 years - they are projected to have the oldest population of any nation (ie. mean average). Their current economc growth is built on cheap labour, but that may not be available for that long.
 

JerseyDave

monkey wrestler
Apr 9, 2002
132
0
Stowe, VT
But their numbers are huge. Even if a larger percentage is over 50, their sheer numbers are still large. And with that multi billion dollar oil deal with Iran....(which is why we really need to get control of their oil). Not to mention how much money we owe them, and other asian countries...if they switched to the Euro, that would hurt us REAL bad....a dollar could be like a peso.

also, the entire worlds economy is built on cheap labor. Globalism.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
JerseyDave said:
But their numbers are huge. Even if a larger percentage is over 50, their sheer numbers are still large. And with that multi billion dollar oil deal with Iran....(which is why we really need to get control of their oil). Not to mention how much money we owe them, and other asian countries...if they switched to the Euro, that would hurt us REAL bad....a dollar could be like a peso.

also, the entire worlds economy is built on cheap labor. Globalism.
Their edge will be dulled compared to other centres of cheap labour.

I thought the dollar was about a peso already?
 

JerseyDave

monkey wrestler
Apr 9, 2002
132
0
Stowe, VT
Such as.... Indonesia? India? Largely Muslim.
We have exported our manufacturing to bypass honest wages, taxes, and other restrictions. Control of resources is our most affective check of forign power. Our military can't even secure Bagdad (sp). A very real question is will we go a lob nukes if our hand gets called? Our conventional military is allready tapped....
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
JerseyDave said:
But their numbers are huge. Even if a larger percentage is over 50, their sheer numbers are still large. And with that multi billion dollar oil deal with Iran....(which is why we really need to get control of their oil). Not to mention how much money we owe them, and other asian countries...if they switched to the Euro, that would hurt us REAL bad....a dollar could be like a peso.

also, the entire worlds economy is built on cheap labor. Globalism.
Word. One thing helping the US is that all loans from the world bank are counted in US dollars. That means the US can borrow without paying any interest. A huge advantage.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
One thing that contributes to the decline is that US governments shoot them selves in the foot when they say they stand for what is good and just in this world but in practice do the opposite.
In the US you have a media that is so much more biased than in the rest of the western world, so there is still little internal critisism. But in Europe a major change came with the invation of Iraq in February 2003. That time it was so obvious that people around me that have never cared about society, or critisezed USA previously, reacted strongly and saw things for what they really were.
 

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,150
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
rockwool said:
One thing that contributes to the decline is that US governments shoot them selves in the foot when they say they stand for what is good and just in this world but in practice do the opposite.In the US you have a media that is so much more biased than in the rest of the western world, so there is still little internal critisism. But in Europe a major change came with the invation of Iraq in February 2003. That time it was so obvious that people around me that have never cared about society, or critisezed USA previously, reacted strongly and saw things for what they really were.
The people in charge genuinely believe that by getting control over a foreign population and instilling a puppet government (we all know it's coming sooner or later...) will be good for the U.S. and in turn, the world...

It's not a matter of saying one thing and doing another, it's a matter of being completely delusional about what the hell is actually happening.

Look at Enron. Kenneth Lay went to his death believing in his heart that he hadn't been the one to screw tens of thousands of his employees out of anything, while he lived it up in one of his 3 beach homes....to most it's incomprehensible....to me, it's a given.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Will try and remeniss a quote by Gary Busey;
"these people come from families that have been in power for so many generations they don't know they are beeing wicked".

Still it's hard to belive. They must surely know they are gready, but justify it to them selves.