Jesus - Fact or Fiction
- Thread starter The Toninator
- Start date
I vote fiction.
The story doesn't debate whether Jesus is fact or fiction, but whether the ossuary is authentic. There are plenty of non-Christian sources that already verify that there was in fact a Jesus of Nazareth who existed on Earth in the 1st Century.
I am a little confused. The story is about the authenticity of the ossuary. But the topic is Jesus fact or fiction. What is the topic?
I am not being sarcastic, just confused.
I am not being sarcastic, just confused.
I think that Jesus should be able to figure that out for himself. Fraud!!! 
Fact. Even the most rabid atheists will not really argue whether or not Jesus existed because there is MUCH more evidence for his existence than pretty much for any other person in history. They just prefer to attack his divinity.
Guy down my street named jesus died about a week ago. doesnt mean he was the son of god. Just a guy named jesus. who died.
just because there are sketchy records of some guy who lived 2000 years ago and shared the same name as probably thousands of people at the time doesnt mean I am going to start going to church or thanking him every time something mildly decent happens and praying to him every time something mildly bad happens.
If it makes people feel better to believe that there really was a jesus who was the son of god 2000 years ago, then whoop de do, im happy for them. As long as i can belive what I want without someone telling me I am going to hell for it, then its all good.
three hours spend in church praying or three hours spent on some sweet singletrack....which is enjoying the world (created by god or not) in a more proper way? dont ask me....
...but i rode this morning.
just because there are sketchy records of some guy who lived 2000 years ago and shared the same name as probably thousands of people at the time doesnt mean I am going to start going to church or thanking him every time something mildly decent happens and praying to him every time something mildly bad happens.
If it makes people feel better to believe that there really was a jesus who was the son of god 2000 years ago, then whoop de do, im happy for them. As long as i can belive what I want without someone telling me I am going to hell for it, then its all good.
three hours spend in church praying or three hours spent on some sweet singletrack....which is enjoying the world (created by god or not) in a more proper way? dont ask me....
...but i rode this morning.
25000 plus manuscripts written by people (Christian and non-Christian) who lived in his day about Him isn't what I'd call sketchy. And that's not all of it.
Like I said, the argument wasn't whether or not He lived. Almost no one will argue that He DIDN'T live. The furthest I've heard my atheist friends go is to say "It's 'more probable' that he lived." The argument is 'whether or not he was divine.'
As far as going to church or riding, I'd rather go to church on Sunday, but I'm not going to condemn those who don't. To each his own.
Like I said, the argument wasn't whether or not He lived. Almost no one will argue that He DIDN'T live. The furthest I've heard my atheist friends go is to say "It's 'more probable' that he lived." The argument is 'whether or not he was divine.'
As far as going to church or riding, I'd rather go to church on Sunday, but I'm not going to condemn those who don't. To each his own.
Yeah I have no doubt that there was someone named jesus who lived at that time in that area. Odds are there certainly was.
I am sure we could find 25,000 manuscripts that claimed the world was flat, as well. Doesnt mean it is true. Thats what I meant by sketchy. I just meant as far as people's claims of divine actions and miracles, we are talking about some fairly uninformed (by today's standards) audiences whom witnessed it all.
no doubt back then david copperfield could have passed as the son of god by making things disappear and using some slight of hand, and every day i see people healed of horrible diseases on the television church shows.
The way I always have looked at it is this:
If the world's premier scientist came on the tv and said he saw some guy walk on water, I wouldn't belive him, so why should I believe the statements of people from 2000 years ago who had no knowledge whatsoever of science? Just because for 2000 years other people have believed it?
They all said the world was flat, as well.
imho,
Miracles=flat world=explaining difficult events by creating a non-supportable answer
science=galileo=explaining difficult ideas by the most likely answer
I dont know what that has to do with this discussion, and I dont want to offend anyone but my opinion is that jesus may have existed, but he was at best a charismatic leader with some tricks up his sleeve whose cult went mainstream.
That doesnt make christianity's tenets wrong or harmful at all, though. As long as people are good to one another and strive to live a life in which others follow by your example rather than preaching, then who really cares at the end who was right?
I am sure we could find 25,000 manuscripts that claimed the world was flat, as well. Doesnt mean it is true. Thats what I meant by sketchy. I just meant as far as people's claims of divine actions and miracles, we are talking about some fairly uninformed (by today's standards) audiences whom witnessed it all.
no doubt back then david copperfield could have passed as the son of god by making things disappear and using some slight of hand, and every day i see people healed of horrible diseases on the television church shows.
The way I always have looked at it is this:
If the world's premier scientist came on the tv and said he saw some guy walk on water, I wouldn't belive him, so why should I believe the statements of people from 2000 years ago who had no knowledge whatsoever of science? Just because for 2000 years other people have believed it?
They all said the world was flat, as well.
imho,
Miracles=flat world=explaining difficult events by creating a non-supportable answer
science=galileo=explaining difficult ideas by the most likely answer
I dont know what that has to do with this discussion, and I dont want to offend anyone but my opinion is that jesus may have existed, but he was at best a charismatic leader with some tricks up his sleeve whose cult went mainstream.
That doesnt make christianity's tenets wrong or harmful at all, though. As long as people are good to one another and strive to live a life in which others follow by your example rather than preaching, then who really cares at the end who was right?
No offense taken. Have you actually studied what non-Christians laughingly label as 'evidence' supporting it? I'll be the first to admit that loads of people who have no clue what it is based on, and a lot of shoddy/incomplete evidence, don't help the case. And I do not mean to offend. By study, I don't mean look over. I mean actually research, whether it's just gathering data on the internet or actually hardcore researching.
But there is a lot more than just those manuscripts, as I said. I will easily say that in the end, there WILL NEVER be 100% proof for Christianity. Maybe not even 50%. It is my belief that this is the way God wants it - after all, if there was 100% proof, there'd be no reason for faith, and it wouldn't be a personal decision...it would be more along the lines of 'the thing to do.' My only real point is that while there will never be 100% proof, there is A LOT more evidence than people realize, enough to get one to the point that they have to make a decision which way to lean. I just lean towards Christianity, is all.
As far as science goes, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that science arose out of a desire to disprove religion/belief sets. Even atheistic scientists (a few of whom I actually chat with on another board) deny this...according to them, it is simply a desire to understand the world in which we live, and THEY are the ones who point out that if anything, if God exists (to them), He'd want them to understand how the world works to better grasp His magnificence.
But there is a lot more than just those manuscripts, as I said. I will easily say that in the end, there WILL NEVER be 100% proof for Christianity. Maybe not even 50%. It is my belief that this is the way God wants it - after all, if there was 100% proof, there'd be no reason for faith, and it wouldn't be a personal decision...it would be more along the lines of 'the thing to do.' My only real point is that while there will never be 100% proof, there is A LOT more evidence than people realize, enough to get one to the point that they have to make a decision which way to lean. I just lean towards Christianity, is all.
As far as science goes, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that science arose out of a desire to disprove religion/belief sets. Even atheistic scientists (a few of whom I actually chat with on another board) deny this...according to them, it is simply a desire to understand the world in which we live, and THEY are the ones who point out that if anything, if God exists (to them), He'd want them to understand how the world works to better grasp His magnificence.
Here is the problem I have with Christianity.
If everything the christian bible says is true, why would you want to worship a "god" that created a place like hell, and caused the eternal torment of a countless amount of souls? That is what I don't understand. Especially when the general belief is that god is considered to be omniscient, and would have known before he created anything what would eventually happen and still chose to go ahead with his plans.
Sounds like a pretty f*cked up thing to do, to the people you created and care for...
If everything the christian bible says is true, why would you want to worship a "god" that created a place like hell, and caused the eternal torment of a countless amount of souls? That is what I don't understand. Especially when the general belief is that god is considered to be omniscient, and would have known before he created anything what would eventually happen and still chose to go ahead with his plans.
Sounds like a pretty f*cked up thing to do, to the people you created and care for...
What i'd like to know is if any religous person can recite an answer to this question without pulling up text from a source and perhaps take a chance and give your own personal perspective, and not just expound on what has been written.
"If everything the christian bible says is true, why would you want to worship a "god" that created a place like hell..."
-He also created a place called heaven.
"...and caused the eternal torment of a countless amount of souls?"
-He didn't cause the eternal torment of anyone, people choose their own paths.
As for the omniscient comment...to what extent His omniscience extends is a highly debated topic...however, a simple answer is that He wanted to create a being that was capable of having a relationship with Him...a being that was capable of loving, and since love is a choice...he created humans as free thinking, loving beings...to truly love, one must choose to do so. With this comes the ability for us to choose not to love, and choose to do things which may cause others harm. So, the potential for hate is equal to the potential for love. Does that make sense? Would it be better for Him to have created us, and not have given us freedom to choose?
Personally, I don't think that God knows everything that will happen.
So then....God is not the all powerful being claimed in the bible?
All is possible through Christ except knowing the future becuase he doesnt know it himself?
The statement that a being can do "anything" is illogical. We've all heard the "can god create a rock too big for himself to lift thing"
I believe in a supreme being, although not the one portrayed specifically in the bible. I sort of view god as the personification of nature and time and emotion.
The way I see it, once we realize that we are not significant. When we die, there is no place to go. We rot in the ground like every other animal on this planet. Our existance means nothing, just like the millions that died before us, then we can truely be happy.
I accepted this fact a long time ago. Along with this acceptance, I also made the choice to be happy. So guess what? I am happy. I have a wonderful life! A great wife, child, parents, brothers, sister, friends, etc...
All religion does is give people an excuse for everything. God blessed me...Satan is out to get me... Get the picture?
We are responsible for everything that happens in our lives. If something in your life sucks, then you only have you to blame and vice versa. There is no God to help us out. You help you out.
Life is wonderful. Why? Because I made it wonderul. Not some made-up God.
I accepted this fact a long time ago. Along with this acceptance, I also made the choice to be happy. So guess what? I am happy. I have a wonderful life! A great wife, child, parents, brothers, sister, friends, etc...
All religion does is give people an excuse for everything. God blessed me...Satan is out to get me... Get the picture?
We are responsible for everything that happens in our lives. If something in your life sucks, then you only have you to blame and vice versa. There is no God to help us out. You help you out.
Life is wonderful. Why? Because I made it wonderul. Not some made-up God.
Funny how this thread started out to debate the actual existence of Christ, then turned into Judeo/Christian/religion-in-general bashing. 
We're all grown-ups and it appears that we have our minds made up about our belief systems, so, I don't think anyone's going to convince anyone else to change by bashing or listing their top 10 gripes about another's religion, whether it's Christian, Humanist, Agnostic, etc.
I believe what I believe with conviction, and I have my reasons, as ill-founded as some may think. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking otherwise, because I respect that you've come to your decsion based on soul searching, experience, or maybe even trial-and-error
.
So, after saying that, I'm not sure if this was a rant for "staying on thread" or one for "hooray for our freedom of religion and expression."
We're all grown-ups and it appears that we have our minds made up about our belief systems, so, I don't think anyone's going to convince anyone else to change by bashing or listing their top 10 gripes about another's religion, whether it's Christian, Humanist, Agnostic, etc.
I believe what I believe with conviction, and I have my reasons, as ill-founded as some may think. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking otherwise, because I respect that you've come to your decsion based on soul searching, experience, or maybe even trial-and-error
. So, after saying that, I'm not sure if this was a rant for "staying on thread" or one for "hooray for our freedom of religion and expression."
I say He is, but there will always be an argument to it.
Of course He knows the future. Just because He knows the future doesn't mean God should have said "Well hell, if they're that dumb, I just won't create them after all."
Uh, GOD is illogical. People keep trying to define God in human terms. God is God. He doesn't FIT logic or description.
As far as the whole 'big rock' thing goes, Sure He can create a rock too big for himself to lift. But God is not going to do anything that goes against His nature. Just because He can create a rock too big for Him to lift doesn't mean He's going to.
Well said!Originally posted by Tweek
Funny how this thread started out to debate the actual existence of Christ, then turned into Judeo/Christian/religion-in-general bashing.
We're all grown-ups and it appears that we have our minds made up about our belief systems, so, I don't think anyone's going to convince anyone else to change by bashing or listing their top 10 gripes about another's religion, whether it's Christian, Humanist, Agnostic, etc.
I believe what I believe with conviction, and I have my reasons, as ill-founded as some may think. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking otherwise, because I respect that you've come to your decsion based on soul searching, experience, or maybe even trial-and-error
So, after saying that, I'm not sure if this was a rant for "staying on thread" or one for "hooray for our freedom of religion and expression."
A discussion would have been nice, but......
Don't fight it, it happens all the time ESPECIALLY in this forum. Defocus from main question that is. If your point of view cannot hold up to a "fair" debate, then is should spawn an alteration which could either strengthen or weaken your stance. I don't believe any of us can convert here, nor do i sense the motive to, alternative points of view help all of us understand our spiritual selves regardless of if you believe in God or not.
Yeah, what he said.
Damn your quick.........
Well that article did prove one thing, there was a dude named Jesus, and James was his brother.
I know a guy named Jesus too.
I know a guy named Jesus too.
Well, if god can create a rock too big for himself to lift.....that means he is, in fact, not all powerful, because he cant lift the rock. He's also equally not all powerful if he cant create one.
Whether he would or wouldnt is irrelevant.
If god knows the future (an idea i find insulting) then that must mean we are set in our destiny, and that our choices have essentially already been made because the future has already been decided. If god knows before Im even born, that im going to hell....why would he allow my existence?
It just doesnt make any sense.
I could argue all the above points....but I've done so before, and it pretty much does absolutely no good here.
well religion is a giant heap od hot steaming poo. it exists soely as a way to control people into conforming and behaving properly. they found a toumb of some egyptian "god", well that is stone, and by your standard more concrete than some scripts therefore there ae egyptian gods too, umm no. ok look at religion this way, what does every religion have a set of guidelines to follo win order to get a prize. be it heaven or whatever. same as the easter bunny and you parents. act well and you get candy. well is it too hard to fathom it all did start as a way to control ppl? in prehistoric times isnt it possible that a ruler created some form of religion to control his people into behaving so thed get to have an afterlife? peopl in this period would have been incompetent enough to believe it thus starting religion as we know it. it worked and soon enough everyone belied the rubbish including the suceeding rulers, because they didnt know any better. all it is is a system of rewards to control people. and hey i like it keeps the mongrels outa my way!
I was trying to follow you up until you started dissin the Easter bunny. Your a very sad sad man.
sorry had to use an example everyone knows is true.
I think religion as a whole is a joke.
It starts more wars and kills more people then anything else in the world.
For example "Holy Wars" come on what a joke? isn't that the biggest contradiction ever? a "Holy War"
P.S. a dam good Megadeth song though.
It starts more wars and kills more people then anything else in the world.
For example "Holy Wars" come on what a joke? isn't that the biggest contradiction ever? a "Holy War"
P.S. a dam good Megadeth song though.
No argument here
religion doesnt have to be poo...if well thout it can bring people together strenghten community spirit..but its the idiots that deforme it to their own gain that turn it into poo..
im sure that 95% of people that say they dont believe in god will somewhere during their lifetime hit a VERY difficult moment and will turn to prayer...but thats just my opinion
im sure that 95% of people that say they dont believe in god will somewhere during their lifetime hit a VERY difficult moment and will turn to prayer...but thats just my opinion
According to my Grandfather (WWII B-25 radioman) the first people to start praying and invoking God's help in combat are those who claim to not believe in his existance.Originally posted by rbx
im sure that 95% of people that say they dont believe in god will somewhere during their lifetime hit a VERY difficult moment and will turn to prayer...but thats just my opinion
Because praying, and saying "god" is used in conjunction with or in place of swearing. You can replace your F*** and your S*** with a prayer. Works for atheists too.
Because for many people it is far easier for them to say "There is no God." to put funny little DARWIN fish on their cars, and to accuse people of faith of being mindless than to look at themselves in the mirror. In the vast majority of cases they KNOW there is a God. They KNOW he is all powerful. But sadly they think that their sins exclude them from Him. In some cases it is just easier to live as they are thinking that "I'm a good person so I'll be allright" than to face the conviction of their own sinfulness. Admiting to yourself and others that you are a sinner is hard.
But when the chips are down the truth comes out.
We can't really have it both ways here. If religion is a tool of mass population control then we cannot blame it for wars. We should just blame good old greed, which regardless of the existence of God, is basically what war is all about.
Predestination as Burly Surly as said (and this could be the first time we have argued the same point..) is complete nonsense. There would be absolutely no point to Christ's life and death if everything about us and our lives is predetermined, God might as well just send us to heaven or hell (neither of which I would believe in even if I still believed in God and I have good reason to say that).
If we have no free will then we might as well just sit on the sofa picking our noses, or even going out stealing, killing and raping. After all that's what we are fated to do. That's bollox. Believing in fate/predestination is going to fvck your life up so much....
And people do change their belief systems after the age of 20, it just takes quite a jolt and happens fairly rarely, but it does happen.
Taking my chance; Yes, Jesus is FACT. He changed my life and has guarded many of my years closely for me. I hold him responsible for my sucesses, my growth, my strength and am glorified that he gives me a will. Now weather or not I make good choices and go the direction in which he has planned for me is another question. That is where the "will" thing comes into play. When I am on track...not just going to church on Sunday, but also reading the word and living it... I see a difference in my life. I feel a closeness with Jesus...and when I don't feel a closeness it is only because I have backed away from him...as he never leaves me...no, not even when I am totally screwing up. The trinity ( father, son & holy spirit) plays into this...as with Jesus comes the two others...the creator (father), and the ever present spirit (holy spirit) which offers me a warm closeness that I feel in worship, tense situations, and happiness to name a few.
Just a couple thoughts...and my real opinion on the matter. No stolen text here Skookum.
Just a couple thoughts...and my real opinion on the matter. No stolen text here Skookum.
Very well said.
If you you find Jesus responsible for your strength, growth and success.......what for do you find yourself responsible?Originally posted by kazonie
Taking my chance; Yes, Jesus is FACT. He changed my life and has guarded many of my years closely for me. I hold him responsible for my sucesses, my growth, my strength and am glorified that he gives me a will. Now weather or not I make good choices and go the direction in which he has planned for me is another question. That is where the "will" thing comes into play. When I am on track...not just going to church on Sunday, but also reading the word and living it... I see a difference in my life. I feel a closeness with Jesus...and when I don't feel a closeness it is only because I have backed away from him...as he never leaves me...no, not even when I am totally screwing up. The trinity ( father, son & holy spirit) plays into this...as with Jesus comes the two others...the creator (father), and the ever present spirit (holy spirit) which offers me a warm closeness that I feel in worship, tense situations, and happiness to name a few.
Just a couple thoughts...and my real opinion on the matter. No stolen text here Skookum.
I suppose you mean to say something like "all things are possible through christ"
Does that go to say that no things are possible without christ?
If you believe that without God, you would never have existed, and that he already has a plan for you.......what will do you have?
Especially if God is the one who put the choices in front of you.
Thank you, for asking me questions on my response. I will be happy to answer them knowing that you are allowing my opinion and my choice to be given without prejudice. I also would like to expand that your views are respected by me and by no means would be subject to prejudism as well.... I give Jesus the credit (responsible) for my strength, growth and success because I am made by him and forgiven by him. That doesn't mean that I do not hold myself responsible for my actions...good/bad...I am simply giving the credit to my Lord. Because without him, although I may be as successful and strong as I am today, I would of never come to where I am without a process of growth inside my soul. Having a relationship with Christ is a very intimate and personal thing, and through that relationship I have grown in ways that I know I wouldn't have without him. For instance.... I might not be as compasionate to someone with health problems if I had not experience the grace the Lord gave me with my own. I may be even more selfish than I already am if I hadn't had the chance to read and study the word...To learn the proverbs on every day living, etc.
I have the choice to go in a direction that is chosen for me...or not. Some say it's easier to take the path that is wide...and I believe that...it is much harder to live a disciplined life and follow the narrow path. But the rewards are great. I have the same choice that anyone else does. I don't belive that the Lord always puts the right choices in front of you...but rather there are always good choices and bad and consequences from either.
I just cant seem to let this make any sense man.
If, as you say, Jesus made you ....then it seems the obvious conclusion would be that any flaws you have would be his own fault. Why would you need to be forgiven his initial mistake in making you?