Just Curious - How Many XC Pros Are Winning On What Type of Bike?

indieboy · May 14, 2007

hardtails

sanjuro · May 14, 2007

hardtails

Wumpus · May 20, 2007

"I'll probably save the hardtail just for those races where you're running more than riding," said Kabush. "But I've pretty much raced the full suspension exclusively for the last couple of years. Even in the short tracks, most of the time I find that there are places where you can pick up time. I'm pretty happy, and especially in the last couple of years, with the new shock technology I don't really find any disadvantage anywhere."

Wumpus · May 20, 2007

"I can ride a hardtail as fast in almost all situations, but it would take so much more effort," stated Craig. "If I were to put that much effort into riding a dualie, I'd end up going a teeny bit faster in a much more relaxed and much more composed manner. We're fortunate enough to have a super efficient suspension design that gives you faster rolling over all of the square-edged stuff because of the axle path and it just generally facilitates riding fast."

Toshi · May 20, 2007

i remember proflex hired some german lab to "prove" that their suspension design would save energy, back in the day. are there any modern equivalents of such research-of-questionable-applicability?

Wumpus · May 20, 2007

sanjuro · May 28, 2007

Given the lack of technical features of most World Cup XC courses, I believe most riders would use hardtails if their equipment sponsors would allow them.

Keep in mind that the World Cup and World Championship winners all rode hardtails. Actually, I think every race was won by a hardtail.

I don't know if the HT won it for them, but it did not hold them back. I just wish there would be harder races requiring FS bikes.

24seven · May 28, 2007

sanjuro said:
I just wish there would be harder races requiring FS bikes.

I totally agree. Some of the tracks can be pretty demanding in a technical sense...

http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/mtbphotos.php?id=/photos/2007/may07/mtbXCworldcup2/mtbXCworldcup24/m_DSC0118

...but it usually leads to disaster...

http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/mtbphotos.php?id=/photos/2007/may07/mtbXCworldcup2/mtbXCworldcup24/m_DSC0174

sanjuro · May 28, 2007

24seven said:
I totally agree. Some of the tracks can be pretty demanding in a technical sense...

http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/mtbphotos.php?id=/photos/2007/may07/mtbXCworldcup2/mtbXCworldcup24/m_DSC0118

...but it usually leads to disaster...

http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/mtbphotos.php?id=/photos/2007/may07/mtbXCworldcup2/mtbXCworldcup24/m_DSC0174

That first picture is pretty cool, that second one seems unfair.

I would think the bike manufacturers would push for harder courses. Considering the most popular FS bikes look like trail/all-mountain bikes, wouldn't they want to see their racers on these kinds of bikes doing these kinds of races?

Changleen · May 29, 2007

They wouldn't want to see the 95% of the 'XC' market who have the skill of a asthmatic retarded pig put off by having to ride off a 4" drop every now and then.

MtnbikeMike · May 29, 2007

Changleen said:
They wouldn't want to see the 95% of the 'XC' market who have the skill of a asthmatic retarded pig put off by having to ride off a 4" drop every now and then.

95% percent seems a lotta bit steep

James · May 30, 2007

sanjuro said:
That first picture is pretty cool, that second one seems unfair.

I would think the bike manufacturers would push for harder courses. Considering the most popular FS bikes look like trail/all-mountain bikes, wouldn't they want to see their racers on these kinds of bikes doing these kinds of races?

I think it's kind of like car racing, look at an Indy Car, or really any full-on race car, rally, supertrucks, etc, they're not exactly what we drive down to get milk.
I really enjoy my hardtail, in fact, probably 90% of the riding I've been doing lately has been on my hardtail, the same Giant carbon frame that Mr. Craig takes out when it strikes him. I have ridden the same trails on my 4" Trance, and honestly, I feel faster overall on the hardtail. Maybe I'm not, but I certainly feel like it. I'm faster going up for sure, and I really don't think much, if any, slower on the descents.
Now, that's just this trail, there are plenty of places I wouldn't take that bike, I'd want more travel. If I'm on the bike all day, etc.
But if I were to get back into racing, I'd probably choose that thing. I have an Anthem too, but I never got completely comfortable on it, though I think it's mainly due to the 72* head angle. I just stuck a 4" fork on there, so hopefully that'll to the trick.

sanjuro · May 30, 2007

Just James said:
I think it's kind of like car racing, look at an Indy Car, or really any full-on race car, rally, supertrucks, etc, they're not exactly what we drive down to get milk.
I really enjoy my hardtail, in fact, probably 90% of the riding I've been doing lately has been on my hardtail, the same Giant carbon frame that Mr. Craig takes out when it strikes him. I have ridden the same trails on my 4" Trance, and honestly, I feel faster overall on the hardtail. Maybe I'm not, but I certainly feel like it. I'm faster going up for sure, and I really don't think much, if any, slower on the descents.
Now, that's just this trail, there are plenty of places I wouldn't take that bike, I'd want more travel. If I'm on the bike all day, etc.
But if I were to get back into racing, I'd probably choose that thing. I have an Anthem too, but I never got completely comfortable on it, though I think it's mainly due to the 72* head angle. I just stuck a 4" fork on there, so hopefully that'll to the trick.

Well, car racing is a funny one. F1 and Indy obviously have nothing to do with the cars on the highway, although when something bad happens, like the Mercedes CLR fly-by, people do remember that. But the rise of NASCAR has to do with the fact that the vehicles resemble (barely and from only the outside) the cars on the road.

But people do not want XC bikes. My shop has zero hardtails over $1200, and no true XC bikes like the Scapel either. The average rider wants a 4-5 inch bike with moderately slack angles, which reflects in the amount of Stumpjumpers and Blur LT's we sell.

A good rider could do well on any bike. I am using a Ti hardtail as my primary bike, and Adam Craig used to win Super-D races on a NRS, which locks up when you squeeze the rear brake. But I am also riding relatively easy trails and the harder ones I just slow down a bit.

When I am riding very difficult trails which I do want to maintain speed, there is only one option: my trail bike.

P.S. Australian Anthems come spec'ed with a 100 mm fork. Good move to upgrade.

James · May 30, 2007

I love that picture.

Adam also won a short track on a road bike...

I think it comes down to what you're most comfortable with. You can ride most trails on any bike, just a matter of how fast you want to go.

The person buying a high-end hardtail knows exactly what he wants, most people would be better served with a dually...

indieboy · Jun 1, 2007

adam didn't win the short track on the road bike, that was carl. adam may have as well but it wasn't the norba national, which is i'm sure what you're thinking of

James · Jun 1, 2007

indieboy said:
adam didn't win the short track on the road bike, that was carl. adam may have as well but it wasn't the norba national, which is i'm sure what you're thinking of

D'oh! That's right. I was freaking working there then, you'd think I'd remember...
Sheesh...

FBTMILF · Jun 8, 2007

Personally, It all depends on the course. There are a few where you could use a hardtail and do all right on the downhills. I have a FS XC bike that i race on and i wouldn't get a hardtail for race unless i could have a FS too. I just feel way more confident with a full bike rather than a hardtail.

MtnbikeMike · Jun 9, 2007

At most races, there will be a Beginner 45-49 category.

As far as advice goes, ride lots, have fun, pace yourself. That's just general stuff. Is there anything specific you'd like to know? There are penty of people willing to give your advice, but mainly you need to find out for yourself what works.

I forgot where I heard this quote but, "Listen to everyone, believe no one."

douglas · Jun 12, 2007

Old_Dude said:
Does anyone have any recommendations for how I could get started in XC racing? Are there events which accept old novices?

OD

1)go to a race
2)sign up (either 1st timer or Beginner 40-49)
3)line up at the apropiate time
4)ride your bike fast

Wumpus · Jun 12, 2007

Old_Dude said:
Also, I believe in listening first to my body. Past events make it pretty clear that if I ride my fully rigid 26" bike for more than 2 hours I will have pain the next few days in my lower back. I can go a little further with my 29" fully rigid bike and even further with my f/s bike.

I need to find a race, prepare for it and jump on the bandwagon.

Great advice - thanks & happy riding.

Norba(usa cycling?) race lengths are determined by time according to the rule book -- an hour or so for beginners.

ATOMICFIREBALL · Jun 22, 2007

Sport rider's opinion on regular trail ripping.
I ride an aluminum Trek 6700SLR hardtail with some riders that have BLUR's. I have to work harder hovering off the seat & losing monmentum over rough stuff to keep up because i'm being pounded by the roots.Especially in slow speed rooty corners. They drop me & i have to sprint to catch up.
When they are on a plush BLUR XC & BLUR LT's you can't do anything in some rough sections to keep up!
Overall i like hardtails,BUT the extra performance of FS is unmatched against a hardtail.
The only place i can accelerate away from them & drop em is on smooth areas & slight uphills ! I really can drop them there & that's cool. Hardtails have zero maintainance on the frame & no shock.

I guess pro's pick their ride for the particular race course.

luelling · Jul 16, 2007

ATOMICFIREBALL said:
Sport rider's opinion on regular trail ripping.
I ride an aluminum Trek 6700SLR hardtail with some riders that have BLUR's. I have to work harder hovering off the seat & losing monmentum over rough stuff to keep up because i'm being pounded by the roots.Especially in slow speed rooty corners. They drop me & i have to sprint to catch up.
When they are on a plush BLUR XC & BLUR LT's you can't do anything in some rough sections to keep up!
Overall i like hardtails,BUT the extra performance of FS is unmatched against a hardtail.
The only place i can accelerate away from them & drop em is on smooth areas & slight uphills ! I really can drop them there & that's cool. Hardtails have zero maintainance on the frame & no shock.

I guess pro's pick their ride for the particular race course.

I raced a Blur XC all last year and I'm racing a Scott Scale hardtail this year, so I can give some perspective. The Blur will be faster on really rough flat and especially downhill trails, BUT the carbon hardtail kills that bike most of the time due to the lighter weight and better acceleration. The Blur I had sucked your energy in the small chainring. The other difference as well is that I'm riding a carbon fiber hardtail (it give a really compliant ride).

As far as which bike pros are winning on, my friend was marathon national series winner last year and he chooses the hardtail or fully based on the course.

ito · Jul 19, 2007

sanjuro said:
Well, car racing is a funny one. F1 and Indy obviously have nothing to do with the cars on the highway, although when something bad happens, like the Mercedes CLR fly-by, people do remember that. But the rise of NASCAR has to do with the fact that the vehicles resemble (barely and from only the outside) the cars on the road.

But people do not want XC bikes. My shop has zero hardtails over $1200, and no true XC bikes like the Scapel either. The average rider wants a 4-5 inch bike with moderately slack angles, which reflects in the amount of Stumpjumpers and Blur LT's we sell.

A good rider could do well on any bike. I am using a Ti hardtail as my primary bike, and Adam Craig used to win Super-D races on a NRS, which locks up when you squeeze the rear brake. But I am also riding relatively easy trails and the harder ones I just slow down a bit.

When I am riding very difficult trails which I do want to maintain speed, there is only one option: my trail bike.

First, that is an insane photo, what the hell is happening there?

Second, the $1000 hardtail market is all but dead for most shops I've seen. A few places are still able to rock it, but the larger guys can't. 29er movement is helping, but it is getting tough to sell a decent hardtail to someone when they can buy a "decent" FS bike for the same price.

As for racing. A year ago when I was doing most of my racing I saw the vast majority of expert, semi-pro, and pros racing on hardtails. In the SS category you get lots of dudes on rigid, but we/they are all freaks.

Despite the marketing that goes into selling FS bikes I believe that most races are still being won on hardtails. It would be interesting to see the difference between what Euro pros and American pros race (I feel like the hardtail market is bigger in Europe).

Anyone have Road to Athens or 24 Solo? Take a look at what they are riding in those, do endurance event athletes rock the 3-4 inch FS bike or are they still on hardtails? I know most of the Athens athletes had hardtails under them.

As for the technical course thing. I've seen some unreal technical sections at some of the XC races I've done. I agree that a more technical course would be more interesting, but from a racer standpoint I would be fairly ticked off if I showed up at a XC race only to find 30 miles of rock garden covered in slick mud. That root chute in the first photo is pretty tech, I've seen tamer DH courses, how technical does a course need to be?

The Ito

sanjuro · Jul 19, 2007

ito said:
First, that is an insane photo, what the hell is happening there?

That's a Mercedes CLR which had a few "uplifting" experiences, making it one of the most notorious race car designs.

ito said:
As for the technical course thing. I've seen some unreal technical sections at some of the XC races I've done. I agree that a more technical course would be more interesting, but from a racer standpoint I would be fairly ticked off if I showed up at a XC race only to find 30 miles of rock garden covered in slick mud. That root chute in the first photo is pretty tech, I've seen tamer DH courses, how technical does a course need to be?

Take the Downieville Classic XC course. It starts with a 4500' climb, but it ends up being 5500' of descents, much of it on the Downievillle DH course.

The one section which is not on the DH course is Pauley Creek, known for its baby heads:

I talked with Jason Moeshler, who won the XC race two years in a row. Last year he raced on a Nomad, but this year, he raced a Blur LT, which is a little lighter bike but similar geometry. Both bikes are over 26lbs with the best of everything.

Jason mentioned he was beaten by two other pros to the top of the mountain, but he passed both by the time he reached the babyheads, which is the still near the top. He said they were riding classic XC setups but they looked like roadies on the rocks. And I can only imagine where Mark Weir, riding a 30lb Nomad, passed these guys to his 2nd place finish.

I wish more races were like the Downieville Classic.

ito · Jul 19, 2007

sanjuro said:
Take the Downieville Classic XC course. It starts with a 4500' climb, but it ends up being 5500' of descents, much of it on the Downievillle DH course.

The one section which is not on the DH course is Pauley Creek, known for its baby heads:

If more races were like this I might be talked into running disc brakes.

The Ito

luelling · Jul 19, 2007

sanjuro said:

Looks like the Lemurian Chute from the original Lemurian Classic XC, man was that a fun race

Just Curious - How Many XC Pros Are Winning On What Type of Bike?

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