Kinesis DownHill Bike

Sir_Crackien · Oct 31, 2004

now only if they would make na FR version i would be interested. with all that machining how is it not going to be EXPENSIVE!

look good though, but to make a better accecment more info is needed

Sherpa · Oct 31, 2004

The bike looks sexy. Some geo. number would be awesome though.

zedro · Oct 31, 2004

looks very nice, but man theres gonna be a ton of chain interaction without a pulley in there....thats a really high foward pivot.

me89 · Oct 31, 2004

wow looks very nice and clean. i dig the red paint too.

also look at the bb hight thats got to be up there with a bullit at about 18-20in. and man your right that pivot point is way up there too. ohh and how much travel does that thing get. but other than those concerns the bike looks very attractive and looks like it could light up the trail.

Smelly · Oct 31, 2004

geo and price would be nice. i think the front end looks cheesy...

Jm_ · Oct 31, 2004

say goodbye to your rear derailer.

speedster · Oct 31, 2004

Looks like the same type of suspension design the B1 has.

dexterq20 · Oct 31, 2004

me89 said:
also look at the bb hight thats got to be up there with a bullit at about 18-20in.

Ummm... check your numbers bro, that doesn't sound right.

Anywho, looks like accessing the shock on that bike for adjustments is gonna be a bitch-and-a-half.

punkassean · Oct 31, 2004

squarewheels said:
geo and price would be nice. i think the front end looks cheesy...

Bingo...

Looks quality but ewww that's a fugly front triangle.

zedro · Oct 31, 2004

its funny, when i look at the headtube area, i see strong. You guys just see ugly.....

it does have B1-ish design elements to it.

CBJ · Oct 31, 2004

zedro said:
its funny, when i look at the headtube area, i see strong. You guys just see ugly.....

it does have B1-ish design elements to it.

Unfortunately I think there are more things that look wrong than right on that bike. If its a great riding bike that is another question.

Smelly · Oct 31, 2004

zedro said:
its funny, when i look at the headtube area, i see strong. You guys just see ugly.....

it's does look strong, but it also looks cheap. i don't want to get into the never ending form vs. function debate, but it looks cheesy and cheap-o. can't they make it just as strong and look good? even if that frame is gonna retail for dirt cheap, like 1200, i still think they should make it look nice. just because something is cheap doesn't mean it has to look the part.

as for shock placement, i'm with dexter. everyone LOVES having to take the shock off the bike to make adjustments. :rolleyes:

zedro · Oct 31, 2004

squarewheels said:
it's does look strong, but it also looks cheap. i don't want to get into the never ending form vs. function debate, but it looks cheesy and cheap-o. can't they make it just as strong and look good?

yeah thats always the problem in designing something in such a market, theres is that expectation. I know i feel that guilt when i'm designing a concept, making such important engineering decisions such as "uhg that looks ugly, no one will wont to ride that...". Hell i think its wrong when the relative shock position doesnt follow a natural line in the frame structure (cough ElCuervo cough).

its a tough little game.

JRogers · Oct 31, 2004

I don't have as many reservations as others on here do. I think it looks pretty darn cool. There appears to be quite a bit of concern for the aesthetics in the production and design. As for the pivot location and pedaling, doesn't look like it would be any worse than an Orange 223, possibly better because of the linkage. Also, it does not look like it would be too hard to reach the shock adjustments. If anything, you'd just have to take off the rear wheel, depending on the shock. No worse than other frames out there.

NineFingers · Nov 1, 2004

Looks P.I.M.P! :thumb:

Rik · Nov 1, 2004

That's the... fourth, I think, frame I've seen with the same downtube. I guess it's going to be like the monocoque front end Norco and so many other companies used in the early 90's, very popular...

ohio · Nov 1, 2004

I have my reservations about the pivot locations of both the main swingarm (Orange 223) and the floating brake arm (erg, brake jack, anyone?). Probably too late to change the main pivot, but I would rethink it as much as possible if I were Kinesis.

KoeniE · Nov 1, 2004

ohio said:
I have my reservations about the pivot locations of both the main swingarm (Orange 223) and the floating brake arm (erg, brake jack, anyone?). Probably too late to change the main pivot, but I would rethink it as much as possible if I were Kinesis.

Why? what are you afraid of when you look at it ?

thaflyinfatman · Nov 1, 2004

KoeniE said:
Why? what are you afraid of when you look at it ?

Huge amounts of chain extension, which means it will pedal really poorly (skip and jerk all over the place due to pedal kickback) over rough stuff, and the floating brake will actually CAUSE brake jack, rather than prevent brake squat.

Not a bad concept, but it needs refinement IMO.

dw · Nov 1, 2004

Hey Kevin,

On your top slider on your chainguide, use the top hole and lower the slider so that it is about 2.5mm away from your chain. The bottom hole on the top slider is really only used on V10s and a couple other frames 95% of bikes use the top hole on the top slider.

Have fun!

dw · Nov 1, 2004

thaflyinfatman said:
Huge amounts of chain extension, which means it will pedal really poorly (skip and jerk all over the place due to pedal kickback) over rough stuff, and the floating brake will actually CAUSE brake jack, rather than prevent brake squat.

Not a bad concept, but it needs refinement IMO.

Just an FYI. the floating brake arm on that bike will not cause brake "jack" The floating brake geometry on that bike will allow less suspension compression under braking than without it.

Dave

thaflyinfatman · Nov 1, 2004

dw said:
Just an FYI. the floating brake arm on that bike will not cause brake "jack" The floating brake geometry on that bike will allow less suspension compression under braking than without it.

Dave

Rightio - so what's the difference between that and jacking? (I am aware that [pro-] squat and jack are not the same thing, being that most bikes get some amount of squat)

I was under the impression that (pro-) squat (regarding braking input only) was a compression force induced on the suspension system, and that jacking (anti-squat) was the opposite, an extension force induced on the system - have I missed something here, or is there a technical definition that I misused, or what?

dw · Nov 1, 2004

Brake "jack" is caused when a suspension actually forces suspension extension under braking. The Profile bikes and Schwinn 4 banger are great examples of this. Anything less than forced suspension extension under braking is.

Pro squat under braking IS a forced compression of the suspension, but you can still have some extension even with pro squat. If you have absolutely zero suspension manipulation under braking (zero squat, the point just between pro squat and anit squat), your suspension will extend.

dw

KoeniE · Nov 1, 2004

Price in europe will be 1999 including a fox DHX 5.0 shock

geometry
head angle 66 deg
axle to bottom of headtube 590mm
seat angle 68 deg
rear clearance 440mm
wheelbase 1450mm

Hope you know enough for now

Grtz Koen

ssaddict · Nov 1, 2004

I never realized how much looks are becoming an issue, you guys sound like a bunch of whiny bitches on Melrose Ave.

LOL

I'm with JR, It can't be much different that this other very popular and successful bike... cept maybe a better CG.

zedro · Nov 1, 2004

wow i never realised how high the 223s pivot really was.

of course from what i saw at the races in a fast choppy section, i guess some like their suspension work work better than others...

Funky Monk · Nov 1, 2004

Have to agree with people who said the front triangle looks cheap...especially the headtube/downtube gusset thingy...yech...better do something about it. A sheet of high quality, well thought-out stickers should remedy that a bit, though.

I mean, imagine an M1 without stickers...def. takes away from the overall aesthetic package...

Otherwise seems pretty neat.

thaflyinfatman · Nov 1, 2004

dw said:
Brake "jack" is caused when a suspension actually forces suspension extension under braking. The Profile bikes and Schwinn 4 banger are great examples of this. Anything less than forced suspension extension under braking is.

Pro squat under braking IS a forced compression of the suspension, but you can still have some extension even with pro squat. If you have absolutely zero suspension manipulation under braking (zero squat, the point just between pro squat and anit squat), your suspension will extend.

dw

Right - but as you say, with zero squat the suspension will extend under braking (due to the rider/bike weight shift forwards, right?) - so with any extension force, the suspension would extend even more, correct? So I'm still missing the difference between that and "jack", given that there is an extension force acting on the suspension.

"Anything less than forced extension under braking is"... is what?

dw · Nov 1, 2004

thaflyinfatman said:
Right - but as you say, with zero squat the suspension will extend under braking (due to the rider/bike weight shift forwards, right?) - so with any extension force, the suspension would extend even more, correct? So I'm still missing the difference between that and "jack", given that there is an extension force acting on the suspension.

"Anything less than forced extension under braking is"... is what?

OK, Jack is actual suspension extension, after all is said and done, when you are riding the bike. Over the years though, riders confused the feeling of "jack" with "packing" which means something totally different when talking about dampers and bumps.

This is why I dont use general laymans terms for describing suspension performace. They are generally misused and confusing.

That sentence was a leftover part of a couple of different sentences that I cut up. Ususally my replies are too damn technical so I have to re-word them so they make sense to as wide of an audience as I can. Hence the fragment that makes no sense.

dw

James | Go-Ride · Nov 1, 2004

zedro said:
yeah thats always the problem in designing something in such a market, theres is that expectation. I know i feel that guilt when i'm designing a concept, making such important engineering decisions such as "uhg that looks ugly, no one will wont to ride that...". Hell i think its wrong when the relative shock position doesnt follow a natural line in the frame structure (cough ElCuervo cough).

its a tough little game.

It's parallel under sag. Just like YOUR MOM WAS LAST NIGHT! Just kidding, I apologize that was out of place.

Curvy top tubes remind me of Wal-Mart bikes. But that doesn't mean anything by itself. Except that other people will think you're on a Wal-Mart bike.

zedro · Nov 1, 2004

James | Go-Ride said:
It's parallel under sag. Just like YOUR MOM WAS LAST NIGHT! Just kidding, I apologize that was out of place.

lol

well, she doesnt hang off the ceiling like a vampire...

Jm_ · Nov 1, 2004

Kevin said:
The track we tested on was pretty rocky and bumpy with some roots and I didnt notice any brake jack at all. The floating disc seems to work like it's supposed to.

About "The rear derailleur"
I really dont see it being at a real different location then other downhill bikes, correct me if Im wrong. Anyways we didnt even scratch it while testing so I really dont see any problem there.

About "Huge amounts of chain extension"
The bike peddled pretty decent I think. The spring was a little to light for me but it wasnt any worst then my 8" BigHit with a Vanilla RC.

Greetz Kev

And in 1998 or 1999, that might have been enough to call it a good bike and sell it. It's a semi-active high pivot.

Just because you didn't notice brake jack doesn't mean it isn't there. The only way to really know for sure would be to hook up a floating brake to it and directly compare on the same bike.

Secondly, a bike like that can pedal fairly well, on flat ground. The downside is that in rough terrain, your pedaling action fights the suspension action, creating feedback when you try to pedal through rough sections. It can actually make it pretty darn hard to get through such sections because when you try to pedal over an obstacle, the suspension doesn't work to it's full extent, creating what feels like a "spike" as you try to clear it. This isn't something we made up a week ago, this is very real and known. This is the reason the high pivot bikes are such a rarity these days, and most bikes that "look" similer (trek desiel) are actually not due to a chain-roller on the pivot, which essentially negates the pedal feedback characteristics.

When the Super 8 and other bikes came out, that Kinesis might have taken off, but if you want a better pedaing bike, a more active bike, and a better braking bike, there are several alternatives, and I'm sorry to say that there isn't one area where the kinesis will be evenly matched against the frontline DH bikes, IH Sunday or SGS, Specialized Demo, VPP10, etc....

biker3 · Nov 1, 2004

what Jm said considering he has ridden the bike and is the king of e-speculation, product thrashing and ownership bias. :nope:

zedro · Nov 1, 2004

biker3 said:
what Jm said considering he has ridden the bike and is the king of e-speculation, product thrashing and ownership bias.

dork, there are certain concepts that stay true from bike to bike. I dont hear hear you hacking on someone like DWs "speculations".

The Kadvang · Nov 1, 2004

biker3 said:
what Jm said considering he has ridden the bike and is the king of e-speculation, product thrashing and ownership bias.

Its a high single pivot bud, no 'e-speculation' required to tell how it will preform.

EDIT: Zedro beat me to it.

dw · Nov 1, 2004

zedro said:
dork, there are certain concepts that stay true from bike to bike. I dont hear hear you hacking on someone like DWs "speculations".

Thats because I dont speculate out loud. I investigate my speculations! :evil:

dw

zedro · Nov 1, 2004

dw said:
Thats because I dont speculate out loud. I investigate my speculations! :evil:

dw

thats the difference between speculations, and "speculations"...

biker3 · Nov 1, 2004

a number of reason master zedro.

1) I like giving shiver lovers ****
2)DW designs really cool bikes
and lastly DW didn't totally and completaly call out the bike saying it would not be able to compete with newer bike designs of today. JM is totally ripping someones creation and ripping against someone who has test ridden the bike. I know the bike probably won't perform as well due to its higher pivot but calling out someones hard work and time like that over the internet just isn't right IMO. As a bike designer yourself Zedro put yourself in the creators shoes......

*that may have been a little too light hearted and soft im sure ill get ripped to the max. HAHAHAHA

edit-hahaha zedro called me a dork, thats priceless yet harsh....

Kinesis DownHill Bike

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