[thePINKster]

i'm going to write a controversial paper on how we should legalize more trails in the norcal area to get more kids off the streets, and onto the mountains.

later, this might be taken to the walnut creek city counsel along with a petition to legalize trails, preferrably in walnut creek open space, what all of you know as limeridge (AKA: mach 5, or that cool concord trail in hellagreasy2) . i am well aware that this has been a mission that many have tried and failed, but my grandmother who works with the law vowed to me to help with this... and once she gets determined, she wont get out of your face until she wins...

so, i'm trying to make my paper as persuasive as possible, and i need your help!!!! any input or arguments that you have supporting this issue would be VERY appreciated.
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

 

[HarryCallahan]

Pinkster,
I'm going to throw out an idea for you, but you'll have to do the research. I would suggest hooking up with a good librarian at a university library.
Parks have to be managed to protect them for the long terms, but also to reflect the changing use demands of the people they serve. As an example, I remember reading that when it was developed, games were not allowed on the grass in New York's Central Park, as it was not seen as an appropriate use relative to the intent of the park. Obviously, times change.

 

[sanjuro]

Since your paper directly affects me , I suggest writing about cases where bikers and their riding organizations has improved their local trail systems.

The main reason why bikes are banned from certain areas (besides the sticks up people's asses) is the belief that riding destroys the trails. If you could cite examples where trail building help to improve the overall environment, it would be fruitful.

I would contact IMBA for more information, and feel free to PM with any questions.

 

[freerider858]

IMBA is definatley a first resource. I went before my town to propose bike trails and had spent a couple of hours jotting down ideas and statistics from the IMBA site. Give it a look it should help. Good luck

 

[OGRipper]

Sanjuro is right, trail damage is the most often cited reason I hear. I suggest you find evidence that biking doesn't do any more damage than other trail users. (Try IMBA's website and go from there.) That evidence, combined with the fact that cyclists are often more willing than others to help with trail maintenance, could mean that the net environmental effect is minimal.

My theory is that the aggregate impact on trails increased when bikes arrived, and the finger is being unfairly pointed at the newcomers who have just as much right to be on the trails as others. When bikes arrived there were suddenly lots more people out there, so the overall impact increased. But the environmental impact would not be much different if there were suddenly twice as many equestrians, or hikers, or whatever.

But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

 

[thePINKster]

Since your paper directly affects me , I suggest writing about cases where bikers and their riding organizations has improved their local trail systems.

i was hoping if any of you had local stories to tell that i can maybe cite in my paper..

thanks for the suggestion about visitin and contacting IMBA. great idea,i dunno why i didnt think of it.

thanks for all the help, and hopefully this will be the start of something great!

 

[HarryCallahan]

OG Ripper made some good points. There are some studies that have been done on the relative impacts of bike tires, hooves, and horses, including a very neutral one done by the parks department in New Zealand some years ago. Overall, the studies show comparable wear and tear from each user group, with each group being bad in some situations and Ok in others. And volume of use is defintely a factor. Wear and tear is not a sign that the use is destructive, it is a sign that more folks of whatever group are using the trail and trail maintenance needs to be stepped up. As an analogy, if your local park empties trash cans once aweek during the winter, that's probably fine. If they try and do the same thing in the summer and the can overflows, it is because park users are littering or more people are using the park and the can needs to be emptied more often?

OGripper also said this:

But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

This is also a key point. I can't say it better.

 

[OGRipper]

Overall, the studies show comparable wear and tear from each user group, with each group being bad in some situations and Ok in others. And volume of use is defintely a factor. Wear and tear is not a sign that the use is destructive, it is a sign that more folks of whatever group are using the trail and trail maintenance needs to be stepped up.

Yeah. And unfortunately mountain bikes started getting popular at a time when outdoor recreation of all kinds started to explode. It is easy to manipulate statistics to show a correlation between the rise of mountain bikes and increased wear and tear, but the causal connection is less clear.

 

[justsomeguy]

But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

True, but another ongoing problem at Lime Ridge is the tools who think that digging/building ON THE EXISTING HIKING trails is a smart thing.

"Back in the day" before Lime Ridge was made into a formal park pretty much anything was possible out there. With Crystal Ranch et al adding thousands of homes right next door and the land being aggresively managed, a few punks making micro doubles on hiking trails gets a bunch of notice.

Good luck with your paper but realistically you have zero chance of opening those hiking trails to mountain bikes, despite having Super Law Granny.

If you want to ride Mach 5 and others just pick the right time of the week, and day. It's not that hard.

 

[thePINKster]

If you want to ride Mach 5 and others just pick the right time of the week, and day. It's not that hard.

ya, thats what i've been doing. that's what everyone's been doing. i just figured that if i have to write this paper, i might as well knock out a few other things with it by legalizing a trail or two.

also, i was thinking of talking to the clayton city counsel about this issue in mitchell canyon, because not only do i have "super law granny" but i also know the city manager of clayton pretty darn well...

and as far as this being ultimately impossible, your right, this might be a total complete failure... but i'd rather do it and give it a fair chance, especially since i've been soo blessed to be given great resources that would otherwise go to waste if i didnt utilize them.

but thanks for the input and we'll see what happens

 

[Brian HCM#1]

The problem is not Walnut Creek, it's East Bay Regional Parks. They are the ones who make the local trail rules, and it has been a loosing battle for years. The main reason for no single track in the Bay Area is the Hippies (Sierra Club). Every council meeting that happens around here for MTBing always has some hippies trying to stop our fun. Several years ago they were going to open ALL single track over at Morgan Territory in Livermore since it was seldom used, and I mean seldom. As soon as the Sierra club got word of that, they started hiking there all the time and put a halt to them opening it up for MTB fun.

 

[justsomeguy]

The problem is not Walnut Creek, it's East Bay Regional Parks.

The "problem" at Lime Ridge is Walnut Creek. It's a city park and the EBRPD has nothing to do with managing the park.

also, i was thinking of talking to the clayton city counsel about this issue in mitchell canyon, because not only do i have "super law granny" but i also know the city manager of clayton pretty darn well...

WTF is "this issue in mitchell canyon"??

If you're talking about singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon, you'll be wanting to have Super Law Granny talk to the folks at the State Parks, since Mitchell Canyon is part of Mount Diablo State Park and "knowing" the City Manager of Clayton will mean exactly squat.

 

[stratguy1618]

The "problem" at Lime Ridge is Walnut Creek. It's a city park and the EBRPD has nothing to do with managing the park.



WTF is "this issue in mitchell canyon"??

If you're talking about singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon, you'll be wanting to have Super Law Granny talk to the folks at the State Parks, since Mitchell Canyon is part of Mount Diablo State Park and "knowing" the City Manager of Clayton will mean exactly squat.

Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning. At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause. In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all. If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.

 

[justsomeguy]

Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning.

If stating facts is bitching, then so be it. The OP is utterly confused about the land access issues.

If you find the facts to be annoying then I would suggest that you stop tormenting yourself and quit reading the thread.

At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause.

If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?

In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all.

Since when is providing facts, based upon direct experience with the areas (both physical and legal) in question, being negative?

I disagree, this can't directly affect me, since some kid writing a paper and petitioning for MTB access to hiking trails in Lime Ridge and siccing Super Law Granny on the Clayton City Manager to open up singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon has exactly a ZERO chance of success. Just the facts.

"so post something productive or post nothing at all"

Fortunately, confused people like you don't get to decide what I post. You do make me laugh though.

If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.

Wow, that's amazing!

Totally inconsequential but your Googling skills are quite impressive.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning. At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause. In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all. If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.

Look kid, you're young. Which basically means us old folks have been fighting with local parks & EBRPD since you were a sperm swimming around in your dads sack. We have tried & tried to convince them about trail damage etc. We live in a hippie infested area which means loosing battles every time. As much as would love to see them open up legal single track in this area, it's very unlikely to ever happen. I'm not saying don't fight it, definitely go for it. However don't expect them to budge on anything.

 

[thePINKster]

If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?

wow.. how encouraging.

then I would suggest that you stop tormenting yourself and quit reading the thread.

and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself

Fortunately, confused people like you don't get to decide what I post. You do make me laugh though

what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

wow.. how encouraging.



and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself



what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.

Like stated before, unfortunately it's a loosing battle. If your Grandma has some pull go for it, she may be the best shot outside the 30-50 year old crowd. Unfortunately the younger crowd won't have a chance and never will.(please don't take it personally)

 

[thePINKster]

Like stated before, unfortunately it's a loosing battle. If your Grandma has some pull go for it, she may be the best shot outside the 30-50 year old crowd. Unfortunately the younger crowd won't have a chance and never will.(please don't take it personally)

i understand that the city wont listen to a bunch of teenagers complaining.. thats why i'm getting help from older people... i dont take that personal at all.

it has been a losing battle, and might continue to be, but it only takes one fight for it to change.

"They always say time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol

 

[sanjuro]

I guarantee nothing will happen if no one tries. Good luck.

 

[justsomeguy]

and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...

 

[sanjuro]

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...

Give it a break. A 15 year old beat your ass, and all you can do is cry louder...

 

[thePINKster]

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...

you sound awfully annoyed...

you are putting in a lot of time and effort. its funny how you have to validate yourself to some "kids" at how amazing you are at bicycling..

and if you're sooo old, well move over grandpa.. a bunch of kids are gonna start passing you up on the trails..

and "Super Law Granny" has assessed the situation. she said that you "are a narrow minded, under educated, uninformed biased idiot... and those are nice words"

 

[justsomeguy]

you sound awfully annoyed...

you are putting in a lot of time and effort. its funny how you have to validate yourself to some "kids" at how amazing you are at bicycling..

and if you're sooo old, well move over grandpa.. a bunch of kids are gonna start passing you up on the trails..

and "Super Law Granny" has assessed the situation. she said that you "are a narrow minded, under educated, uninformed biased idiot... and those are nice words"

Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete.

"a lot of time and effort?????????????"

A few minutes sharing facts with you is "a lot of time and effort"?? Think before posting please!

If your Super Law Granny truly said that (which you and I know didn't happen) then she is even more confused than you are.

p.s I don't care if a bunch of kids, or adults, or circus midgets, pass me on the trail, as long as they have at least half a clue about what is going on with local trail access issues. You have a LONG way to go untill you reach that point, based upon your incredibly misinformed posts. You need to get together with Super Law Granny and do some serious studying, pronto!!

 

[thePINKster]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time.. so i'm gonna be the mature one to stop all this mumbo jumbo...

btw, i found this inspirational quote and thought of you :

"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it. " - malcom x

....... too bad you werent man enough.

 

[sanjuro]

Think before posting please!

Please.

 

[justsomeguy]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time..

Yet you still reply...

So, if indeed you're being so productive, as has been claimed, what results have you produced again?

You claim to have some kind of special understanding/connection to local land issues yet you have shown that you are particularly uniformed about the realitiy of MTB access to Lime Ridge and Mitchell Canyon.

Old business but what exactly do you think Super Law Granny can do about your mysterious "issue in mitchell canyon"???????

 

[stratguy1618]

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride?

I don't think she said you didn't ride, she was just giving you a suggestion of something better you could do with your time than rant at 16 y/o's on the internet. Though nothing may happen, no change ever happens without someone try to change it. How do you think skaters got skateparks to pop up all over the place?

 

[SPrider]

you guys are all stupid for arguing over the keyboard, dont get so emotional over stupid people, dont say anything if your gonna be negative, go do something else, i dont wanna hear any gayness anymore

 

[pbr]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time.. so i'm gonna be the mature one to stop all this mumbo jumbo...

....... too bad you werent man enough.

Good luck with the paper, and the fight. As for the "grouchy old guy," I'll put money on you schooling him on a ride.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

How do you think skaters got skateparks to pop up all over the place?

There is a BIG difference. There was nowhere to ride skateboards besides on the street or in front of your house. There are PLENTY of places to ride MTB's off road. However it's all fire trails & no single track. The Park's will say "You have places to ride off road, just stay off the single track".

 

[keen]

This thread has turned from a positive gesture into a childish finger pointing session. What's wrong with someone taking a stance for mt. bikers ? Do those haters think she will crash and burn and make things worse or fall on deaf ears ? If these internal mt. bike squablles reflect our skills to organize and approach no wonder our voices go unheard - hell I don't want to read this post anymore.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

So how may council meetings have you sat in on, or voiced your opinion in one? I'm not talking about signing a little petition at the LBS ether. Actually getting up and speaking to the people who make these decisions on trail usage? I have for several years only to lose every time.

 

[sanjuro]

So how may council meetings have you sat in on, or voiced your opinion in one? I'm not talking about signing a little petition at the LBS ether. Actually getting up and speaking to the people who make these decisions on trail usage? I have for several years only to lose every time.

I acknowledge your work Brian, and it is appreciated. However, public appeal has less to do with the message and more with the messenger. Possibly a girl and her grandmother might have more appeal than from another dude mtn biking.

Actually, all this negative talk might be doing her a favor. I find when the more people doubt me, the harder I work.

 

[justsomeguy]

However, public appeal has less to do with the message and more with the messenger. Possibly a girl and her grandmother might have more appeal than from another dude mtn biking.

Based upon those comments it's obvious that you haven't been directly invovled in land access issues.

It doesn't come down to how appealing the messengers are.

Unfortunately the issues are much, much more complex than that.

 

[OGRipper]

Classic stuff, this.

It will be a huge challenge and you may not get anywhere but frustrated...but you know what? Try anyway. Just be respectful and it can't hurt. IMO the more people working for these changes, the better.

Maybe you, Brian, and JSG can get together for a strategy session and discuss what approaches have failed miserably and what you might do differently...you know, work together to take advantage of disgruntled experience and youthful enthusiasm...yeah right!!!

(Joke of the day? HAHAHA, I kill me!!)

 

[justsomeguy]

Maybe you, Brian, and JSG can get together for a strategy session and discuss what approaches have failed miserably and what you might do differently...you know, work together to take advantage of disgruntled experience and youthful enthusiasm...yeah right!!!

Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?

You might be on to something there.

 

[sanjuro]

Based upon those comments it's obvious that you haven't been directly invovled in land access issues.

It doesn't come down to how appealing the messengers are.

Unfortunately the issues are much, much more complex than that.

Hmmm. I have never sat in a city or state council meeting. Members of my family involved in California politics do regularly though.

I am somewhat familiar with trail access in California, being a member of IMBA and the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship. And I have dug plenty of trail.

I don't think a school report is going to magically open Back Creek and Side-O. But the incredible negativity you showed at a girl's attempt, wrongheaded or not, to improve trail access is pretty stunning.

BTW, JustSomeGuy, what have you done to help the mtn bike community?

 

[justsomeguy]

BTW, JustSomeGuy, what have you done to help the mtn bike community?

It depends upon how you define "help."

In the obvious definition I have spent many, many, many hours at city meetings and as part of the Trails Working Group (serving on two committees) that was instrumental in protecting Joaquin Miller Park from the HOHAs and preserving mountain bike access.

I've done a boat load of trail maintenance (most recently six hours in 40 degree rain clearing brush at Oat Hill) and lead dozens of organized mountain bike rides that have introduced many riders to new riding areas/opportunities.

I helped to spread the message of the imminent threat to the Fruita Bookcliffs trail system to thousands of folks who would have been otherwise unaware of the problems.

I have given thousands of riders a virtual taste of many great trails and inspired them to ride/stoked their interest (if you can believe their emails).

I have helped a great number of riders during the winters endure hours on their trainers (again, if you can believe their emails).

I have celebrated the the folks who lay new trail and in doing so shown the BLM, various State's Parks folks, etc. the positive impacts that mountain bikers can have on the recreational options.

Does that answer your question or should I keep going?

 

[sanjuro]

It depends upon how you define "help."

In the obvious definition I have spent many, many, many hours at city meetings and as part of the Trails Working Group (serving on two committees) that was instrumental in protecting Joaquin Miller Park from the HOHAs and preserving mountain bike access.

I've done a boat load of trail maintenance (most recently six hours in 40 degree rain clearing brush at Oat Hill) and lead dozens of organized mountain bike rides that have introduced many riders to new riding areas/opportunities.

I helped to spread the message of the imminent threat to the Fruita Bookcliffs trail system to thousands of folks who would have been otherwise unaware of the problems.

I have given thousands of riders a virtual taste of many great trails and inspired them to ride/stoked their interest (if you can believe their emails).

I have helped a great number of riders during the winters endure hours on their trainers (again, if you can believe their emails).

I have celebrated the the folks who lay new trail and in doing so shown the BLM, various State's Parks folks, etc. the positive impacts that mountain bikers can have on the recreational options.

Does that answer your question or should I keep going?

And do you enjoy quashing the attempts of a young girl who is trying to get involved?

I think you need take a step back and stop patting yourself on the back, and look at all this.

It sounds like you have done almost much as I have for riders, and you should be happy a teenager is trying to help out, rather than flipping out at an attempt to learn more about working with the system.

Maybe nothing comes out of her paper. Maybe all this does is get her to come out for trail maintenance. Maybe this inspires her to become an advocate for trail access.

On the other hand:

"So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots?"

"Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?"

"Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete."

These are the kind of statements you're proud of?

 

[justsomeguy]

And do you enjoy quashing the attempts of a young girl who is trying to get involved?

Why do you equate stating facts with quashing? Facts are facts.

I think you need take a step back and stop patting yourself on the back,

Huh? You're the one that wanted to know what I had done. I haven't ever offered that kind of information, crowed about it, or done anything similar so how is simply answering your question "patting myself on the back"?

It sounds like you have done almost much as I have for riders,

Okay, that truly made me laugh out loud, considering that you haven't done any "heavy lifting" (as in the truly tedious, often boring, usually frustrating work of sitting across the table from folks, for hours and hours, who want nothing more than to ban bikes from the trails), among other things.

and you should be happy a teenager is trying to help out, rather than flipping out at an attempt to learn more about working with the system.

Damn, that's funny as well. You're confusing "flipping out" with beiing amused.

"So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots?"

"Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?"

"Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete."

These are the kind of statements you're proud of?

Taken in context, they are just fine.

The fact that your panties are bunched by a joke (assassination...) speaks volumes about you.