[GPERKINS]

I was looking on Litter mag and saw a feature that read:

"The industry still hasn’t learned that by embracing DUAL SLALOM over the combat-heavy MTX (or 4x), they will sell more short-travel, gravity suspension bikes because participation will increase. Here’s why: Very few downhillers make the cross over into gated racing because they don’t want their season cut short by Guido Tschugg or any other dip**** with a hard-on for contact. Look at any combo event with both DS and DH, and you’ll see the downhillers will participate. 4x is dumb. Companies, when you make the move, I get 2% of “slalom” bike sales."

I'm not necessarily talking about increasing slalom bike sales, even though that is probably a positive by-product of switching over. But do you guys think that switching from "combat-heavy MTX" to Dual slalom would bring back some attention to the sport in world cup racing and local/national racing and would get more racers involved. And in turn, get resorts to start actually caring about Dual slalom.

Lets the discussion.......................... BEGIN!

 

[NY_Star]

I belive that DS shows real talent on a Mt bike., not an over sized BMX race on a DH Slope.

 

[Bicyclist]

If there was a local series that has DS racing, I'd probably be inclined to give it a shot, but I have no interest in 4X/MTX/BMX on a MTB or whatever you want to call it at all.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

If there was a local series that has DS racing, I'd probably be inclined to give it a shot, but I have no interest in 4X/MTX/BMX on a MTB or whatever you want to call it at all.

Yup.

I'm all for 4x as well, but would probably never race it. I will definitely race dual sooner or later.

 

[thom9719]

the 4X format needs a change, we either need to go back to Dual, or all 4X courses need to be like the Vigo course, where it actually requires a mountain bike and the riders have rocks and lines to negotiate.



Kyle,

 

[stiksandstones]

A rehashed argument....4X sucks, but it is not going anywhere, UCI loves it and any current OR potential sponsor they have, they love it too.

#1 reason='THE CRASHES'

I kid you not.

 

[4xBoy]

Get rid of 4X and return DH to the days of Mammoth.

That would be awesome.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

yeah bring back the kamakazii (sp?) run! see who can stay off the brakes the longest


also 4x suck i would never race it. i on the other hand would love to give DS a good try

 

[stiksandstones]

2003 and 04, or 02'??? they did the mammoth kamikazi during the national, was a 'special event' not part of the national and I think like 5 people did it.

People bitch and complain about this weekends world cup DH track and the worlds track...they would really pee their diapers over the Kamikazi these days, everyone is sooo GNAR now.

 

[Salty4X]

you guys are real pvssys. I think there is room for both on the local and national level. I like Dual just as much, but am tired of everyone jumping on the 4X blows because my gina hurts wagon. DH is already the most revered gravity sport and maybe you should just keep riding that, shut up and concentrate on being good at one thing instead of sucking at both. contact is where its at, fvkn sally's Now lets see what that'll start.

 

[juanbeegas]

Seriously, from a spectator's point of view, 4X is more "entertaining". I'd think the entertainment value is what keeps it alive. The more people drawn to watch an event, the more money sponsors can make through advertisement. DS, on the other hand, has more spectator value from a rider's point of view and in all honesty, I think that's where it fails to get revenue. With 4X, the average joe can watch it and still enjoy it. Many people can watch DS, but all they'll see are 2 grown men riding their bicycles. They won't understand the technicalities of the sport. With 4X, they see the air time, the crashes, the aggression that comes with the territory.

 

[fortenndu]

I personally have raced DS a lot more then 4x but I enjoy racing 4x more. I don't think it has a place in WC racing though. The only reason I like it is because I "have a hard on for contact" and having the competition that close pushes me a lot harder. WC racing should showcase a riders skills on a bike not who can take a hit and keep on going, that's what football is for.

 

[CRoss]

Out of DH, DS, and 4x, DS gets the most national TV air time with the Jeep King of the Mountain series.

Just something to think about.

 

[ska todd]

Properly this would be "dual slalom" and not "dual". That is too easy to confuse with the short lived "duel" of mid-late 90's World Cups.

I think I've made myself rather clear where my sentiments lie. 3X is the future.

-ska todd

 

[grimm]

Wow, i mustve been out of the loop for too long. i didnt think they raced duAl or duEl anymore.. thought it was all about this 4x stuff now..

If im not mistaken, dual is two people racing on two courses next to eachother, whilst duel was two people on the same course, right?

 

[stiksandstones]

Out of DH, DS, and 4x, DS gets the most national TV air time with the Jeep King of the Mountain series.

Just something to think about.

Jeep series is dead and done.

 

[IH8Rice]

Jeep series is dead and done.

did Paul Mitchell not get any mtb'ers to buy their product?



i personally like DS more better. its fun to race someone side by side w/ gates thrown in the mix and having to rail the entry and exit of the berms perfectly.... to me 4x is like the old 4 person DH runs....4 dudes racing on a small DH style course goin for broke

 

[spornographer]

A rehashed argument....4X sucks, but it is not going anywhere, UCI loves it and any current OR potential sponsor they have, they love it too.

#1 reason='THE CRASHES'

I kid you not.

i believe that for sure.

does the UCI and/or sponsors not see the discrepancy between the amount of money put into the event vs the SMALL numbers of participants and viewers? do they not care about that? we all read Jill's comment about the women's field having "depth" with only 9 riders in SA. that's pathetic.

If slalom was a UCI event, you'd probably see a lot more DHers participating because they wouldn't fear injury from carnage. hold qualifiers on one day and race on the other and maybe only do round of 16 so it runs more quickly and riders won't get fried. it would be ELITE. just think if half the dirt in the SA 4x track was used for a slalom track...SICKNESS!

as for the "pvssy" and "gina" comments...that's why bmx racing still rules and has its place. BMX has quality tracks that are consistent, rider contact, multiple riders and actual rider participation.

if 4x tracks were built with the "mountain" in mind, that would be cool, too. i wonder if we'll see any tracks in the U.S. like that this year? you know, a little more "mountainy" than "BMXy".

off to sea otter...thanks for bringing up this discussion. i think it's fun to talk about.

 

[boogenman]

I like dual slalom more, I would probably race dual again if I didn't have to push back up to the top. It would be nice to school Ih8rice too, wanna push my bike for me?

 

[IH8Rice]

It would be nice to school Ih8rice too, wanna push my bike for me?

guy, ill push my bike and your bike up the hill this year to race you!

 

[Sonic Reducer]

there is contact in bmx sure but a lot of stuff that I have seen in 4x would get you punched in the face at a bmx race. I have gotten thrown some ridiculous block passes in 2x, like a slower kid 15' back practically cutting a switchback berm, intentionally crashing into me full force and highsiding me off. definitely a bitch move. but what can you do, rubbings racing especially in 4x. maybe they need to start handing down more DQ's for overly aggressive riding.

 

[MinorThreat]

I think DS should stay in skiing where it was lamely adapted from. But then, I came from a flat track and MX background where a little bar-banging was to be expected and nobody got whigged out over it.

I agree with Kyle though, that mountaincross should be reworked into something better than downhill BMX. Just sems to be too short/groomed/hole shot wins. There needs to be enough length to a course to allow more lead-swapping.

I'm a DHer who would participate if I thought there's be a chance of getting more than 20 seconds of head-to-head action. Right now, both dual and MTX seem lame.

 

[Homey]

4X is a cluster**** for anyone less than a pro and even the pro's look like a cluster more often than not. I think people forget about watching DS. I think DS is more exciting to watch because you can watch the riders technique and see their strengths on the track. The racing is close the whole way down the track rather than the first and last turn. The tracks are easier to produce and 90% of the riders would rather race DS IMO.

 

[Leppah]

I'd rather race DS than 4x. Too many guys that want to take you out if they can't start as fast as the rest. At least in dual you can make up a little bit of time if you don't get the best start in world without worrying about being taken out by someone cutting you off or undercutting you.
4x seems like it's always over as soon as it starts unless you have someone racing that isn't afraid to take you out instead of using their skills to get ahead.

 

[MDJ]

I bought a bike for slalom
I race dual slalom
I don't race 4x

I also race BMX occasionally. I just don't have any interest in 4x. The course in PMB looked like it would be a blast to ride. But, once again it was just a drag race to the first turn and then it was over. To each his own, but to me it is boring.

 

[luiz carlos]

Dual would be good for two things:

The return of all downhillers stars and the possibility of the people see all course and the battle for 1st place.

 

[chillindrdude]

i personally like 4x. i agree that smooth 4X tracks are lame and should have more "roughage". i felt that the 4X track at World Cup #1 was pretty good, 2 rock gardens, a stairs/sandbar section, and a few off camber corners. graves won it, and he races both DH and 4X. perhaps they should combine points for both DH and 4X. and have just one title. you would have to do both 4x and DH to win the overall title.

 

[wysiwyg]

The top level riders still wouldnt want to race DS as they need to be fresh for the next days DH. DS or 4x it still takes it out of you.

 

[NY_Star]

If your looking for contact, go get a motocross bike and hit up your local track. Put a block pass on some one and go for it.

 

[intensified]

seems around here in the northeast that 4x hasnt been much of a thing in a while...???
most races offered DS for a while, havnt seen 4x in a few years.

4x tracks would take up more space than DS tracks so that can be an issue at a resort to leave set up all year.

I find both fun but never want to miss out on chair lift rides to get some DH runs in that i travel and pay all my money for.

 

[stumpjump]

I had some a$$ with a hankering for contact take my bike down last season and decided to just rum over my front rim. Ruined the rim and bent the front skewer to the point where I had to toss it. All he had to say was "rubbin's racin." I almost knocked him the *&*% out. Had to end my riding season early because that was my XC rig too.

Not saying that I don't enjoy slalom races but they have to establish better way of dealing with douchebags like this. It's one thing when you rub a little, it another thing ram someone with your bike in the middle of a berm.

 

[stiksandstones]

scroll to the mens 4x final...and following interviews
then discuss dual

 

[Mike Buell]

scroll to the mens 4x final...and following interviews
then discuss dual

The Video of that final show's exactly why there needs to be a better system for officiating most 4X races. The move that Kid tried to pull should of got him DQ'd. It comes down to position, If you've got it (your axle in front of the other guy), make the pass. If you don't and are coming from behind the other rider, and engage contact, especially with this force, you should be DQ'd. Rubbing is Racing, but being dangerous is just stupid, and should be punished. This rider should of backed off in this situation because he definitely didn't have position, and probably could of barely pulled that line on an open course.

A similar move like this was tried at Angel Fire a few years back, I won't bring up the names involved because it is behind both of them, but the guy doing the taking out was DQ'd on a protest from the other rider. There shouldn't of had to of been a protest though, there should be officials stationed down the course to step up make these calls. I don't think 4X needs to be over policed, just in obvious situations. Like where one guy sends the other over the berm.

 

[urbaindk]

I like the course and races at Wisp in MD. The top half is side by side, and then the track merges for the last half. For your fast qualifying riders, the merge is not an issue, as they are usually well ahead of the other rider. There's little or no fear of getting taken out. Things get exciting for the mid qualifiers and in the semi and final rounds where the riders are more equally skilled. Then the merge section becomes more important and the spectators love it. Also they usually run double-elimination so one bad run doesn't put you out. You can still claw your way back into the finals from the losers bracket.

 

[ska todd]

What you describe there is old school UCI Duel style I believe. Same type used in Jeep races I think too.

A couple clips of Duel action in the old Circus trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNh7fpRffYs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNh7fpRffYs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

-ska todd

 

[IH8Rice]

scroll to the mens 4x final...and following interviews
then discuss dual

ooooo the infamous video

 

[Zutroy]

What you describe there is old school UCI Duel style I believe. Same type used in Jeep races I think too.

A couple clips of Duel action in the old Circus trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNh7fpRffYs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNh7fpRffYs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

-ska todd

Keeps stuff was 1/2 DS...1/2 UCIish duel. Much better than straight up duel....plus most of the WC duel course were POSs.

 

[Homey]

scroll to the mens 4x final...and following interviews
then discuss dual

Hasn't 4x been EC's baby all along? Was the Glen Helen National the first 4x race put on by EC? IMO the interview just shows that if you are good in BMX then you should be good at 4x with all of the old BMXers being interviewed.

I think 4x is definitely derived from BMX and Slalom is definitely derived from MTB. My loyalty stays with Slalom...way more fun for the rider (who actually supports the event). It's amazing to me that we pay to race, there is barely any TV coverage (none in the US), the spectators don't pay a dime to watch the event and we have to race 4x because there are more crashes and the powers that be think that it is more marketable. It's funny when they say that because the marketing for these events is terrible for anyone outside the MTB industry and the attendance has gone down as well. Our money needs to go back into the events rather than attracting TV and outside sponsors. The racers should be the ones who decide what events to run and if they chose to run 4x then I'm shocked!

 

[stiksandstones]

Hasn't 4x been EC's baby all along? Was the Glen Helen National the first 4x race put on by EC? IMO the interview just shows that if you are good in BMX then you should be good at 4x with all of the old BMXers being interviewed.

I think 4x is definitely derived from BMX and Slalom is definitely derived from MTB. My loyalty stays with Slalom...way more fun for the rider (who actually supports the event). It's amazing to me that we pay to race, there is barely any TV coverage (none in the US), the spectators don't pay a dime to watch the event and we have to race 4x because there are more crashes and the powers that be think that it is more marketable. It's funny when they say that because the marketing for these events is terrible for anyone outside the MTB industry and the attendance has gone down as well. Our money needs to go back into the events rather than attracting TV and outside sponsors. The racers should be the ones who decide what events to run and if they chose to run 4x then I'm shocked!

EC can chime in and correct me....
but ya, I think EC was the first one to take a '4 rider' format and make an event. The troy lee glen helen test event, called '4 man cycle race' was the first one I know of, EC put it on and the drunk MX fans loved it. EC had a vision to create the PCA 'progressive cycle association' and I think 'mountaincross' would have been the bread and butter of that. I think his goal was to have huge 4cross only events around the world.

EC later did another test event in vermont during a national and I think one more somewhere, those test events he did went pretty well, riders liked it, fans liked it, there was passing, MASSIVE jumps and technical obstacles.....SO the 'craze' kind of took off, but it just failed miserably and was poorly executed by that european governing body

I think a downfall of this was the one guy who had the vision (EC) was peaking in his career too, he became a contender for DH racing during this new sport happening (4cross) and he was also still kicking butt in head to head racing, so he was getting paid nicely, having to train, wanting to continue being a top american/intl rider, but ALSO had everyone saying "EC, what do we do next with mountain cross???....EC how do we build the track???".

He had a vision, it started out beautifully and has died in my opinion. Watching africa it was same ole follow the leader BS. Waste of money, time and energy. But like I said, last I heard, the UCI loved it and their sponsors like the 'ohhhh crashes!'.

 

[yellowrake]

My 2 Cents - If anyone gives a hoot.

As a long time racer, former national champion and now promoter, I lobby for the "dual" format....Slalom (gated turns) on the top half of the course and one track at the bottom. This seems to be the best compromise for everyone's argument. The "Y" format has worked very well for us (Racer's Edge, Inc.) and promoters can even consider running double elimination...it still takes less time to execute than traditional dual slalom and will save money on timing - racers love it too! As for any contact...rubbing is racing, get used to it.

We have built some of the best tracks in the country and hope to see everyone else step up their courses...that's what makes a great race...Don't force the riders to have to make a sketchy move to win! You're all welcome to attend the 4th annual Capital Cup at Wisp Resort (June 5-7) to experience exactly what I'm talking about.