[Homey]

EC can chime in and correct me....
but ya, I think EC was the first one to take a '4 rider' format and make an event. The troy lee glen helen test event, called '4 man cycle race' was the first one I know of, EC put it on and the drunk MX fans loved it. EC had a vision to create the PCA 'progressive cycle association' and I think 'mountaincross' would have been the bread and butter of that. I think his goal was to have huge 4cross only events around the world.

EC later did another test event in vermont during a national and I think one more somewhere, those test events he did went pretty well, riders liked it, fans liked it, there was passing, MASSIVE jumps and technical obstacles.....SO the 'craze' kind of took off, but it just failed miserably and was poorly executed by that european governing body

I think a downfall of this was the one guy who had the vision (EC) was peaking in his career too, he became a contender for DH racing during this new sport happening (4cross) and he was also still kicking butt in head to head racing, so he was getting paid nicely, having to train, wanting to continue being a top american/intl rider, but ALSO had everyone saying "EC, what do we do next with mountain cross???....EC how do we build the track???".

He had a vision, it started out beautifully and has died in my opinion. Watching africa it was same ole follow the leader BS. Waste of money, time and energy. But like I said, last I heard, the UCI loved it and their sponsors like the 'ohhhh crashes!'.

Right on. That makes sense. The tracks he was designing were HUGE and I don't think they were suited for anyone less than a pro (male). The first Sea Otter 4x was another one he did...I remember everyone but Cedric casing that 40' double on their first try. Those were the few good american 4x tracks, the rest sucked. The last couple races I did back in '03 were terrible. Herbold designed the WORST track ever in Durango. I think there was 1 jump that anyone could jump and everything had to be rolled...plus it had whoops in it on flat ground after a flat 180. Big Bear was not much better. They wouldn't let anyone other than the pro's do the "pro line" so the am's had to peddal up hill and try to jump a tabletop at the bottom of the course. I lost interest in racing after that year, then I got married, then all of my trails got plowed and my riding buddies moved to Bend and Colorado...as you can see - sucked from there on out

 

[ZoRo]

It's amazing to me that we pay to race, there is barely any TV coverage (none in the US), the spectators don't pay a dime to watch the event and we have to race 4x because there are more crashes and the powers that be think that it is more marketable. It's funny when they say that because the marketing for these events is terrible for anyone outside the MTB industry and the attendance has gone down as well. Our money needs to go back into the events rather than attracting TV and outside sponsors. The racers should be the ones who decide what events to run and if they chose to run 4x then I'm shocked!

Good point!

Plus slalom is not as costly to put together as a 4x race which commands sh*t loads of dirt and a competent guy-girl to shape the track.

There is one podcast from the Fluidride series that focuses on a slalom race and everybody, the spectators AND racers seem to have a blast being there competing or spectating.

I hope slalom catches on!

 

[DORO]

For those interested in DS. East Side holding it down.

http://highlandmountain.com/what_up/slalom.php

 

[MinorThreat]

Maybe I just came from the 'wrong' background to understand this so someone please school me. Why is the idea of side-by-side racing on 30-pound machines at 25 mph so frightening in compared to side-by-side racing at 40-45 mph on 175-lb machines?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or facetious; I'm just trying to understand where people are coming from in the love of Dual (which seems such an archane format to me) over MTX (which is or seems so straightforward in concept).

 

[Ithnu]

I'm glad to see most people prefer slalom. I bought a Transition Double last year for slalom. Last year in the MSC there were 2 DS and 3 4X. This year there is 1 DS and 4 4X, I was hoping it would go the other way. But one venue that had DS (Keystone) isn't back on the series and Sol Vista is building a 4X track instead of DS. I was hoping for 3 DS races this year, I got 1.

I don't think I'm even going to bother to race any of them. I'm actually going to sell the bike, I need the cash with the wife unemployed. And why keep an expensive bike around for 1 race?

If DS makes a come back in a year or two I'll buy a cheap hard tail. In the meantime mountain bmx'ers can race while I practice DH.

 

[stiksandstones]

Maybe I just came from the 'wrong' background to understand this so someone please school me. Why is the idea of side-by-side racing on 30-pound machines at 25 mph so frightening in compared to side-by-side racing at 40-45 mph on 175-lb machines?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or facetious; I'm just trying to understand where people are coming from in the love of Dual (which seems such an archane format to me) over MTX (which is or seems so straightforward in concept).

you bring up flattrack moto racing....
the toothless, retarded, illiterate, older brother of motorcycle racing.

I hope you were not trying to say flat track is a successful OR popular sport.

 

[MinorThreat]

you bring up flattrack moto racing....
the toothless, retarded, illiterate, older brother of motorcycle racing.

I hope you were not trying to say flat track is a successful OR popular sport.

Well . . . it's at least as popular with spectators as gravity MTB racing - - meaning nobody outside other bike enthusiasts and racers' families. But at least it has a pro class that are true pros, in that they race for real purses. Pro MTB racing seems to have been relegated to something resembling minor league hockey.

Flat track certainly got eclipsed in popularity by motocross - - but, then again, that is another head-to-head-action racing sport. But 'toothless, retarded'?

I guess the other prong to my question is: Is 4X disliked so much because of the form that it has evolved into (labor-intensive, oversized gravity BMX tracks) or the very nature of the concept? I'm trying to figure out what it is about it that it's been embraced as motocross and boardercross but not us mountain bikers? If it was layed out as a rougher-hewn, more natural-terrain thing more like early European motocross would that make it more attractive? Or is doing your own thing in your own undisturbed line so ingrained in gravity MTB (one person against a clock or two people in separate lanes) that anything truly heads-up is distasteful?

Once again, I'm not trying to dis or belittle anyone, I'm just trying to figure it out. I loved racing flat track, indoor short track and MX when i was younger, lived for first-turn jams (although I much preferred getting hole-shots of course ) and would really like to figure out a way of capturing that essense in some form of gravity racing.

 

[Ithnu]

I guess the other prong to my question is: Is 4X disliked so much because of the form that it has evolved into (labor-intensive, oversized gravity BMX tracks) or the very nature of the concept? I'm trying to figure out what it is about it that it's been embraced as motocross and boardercross but not us mountain bikers? If it was layed out as a rougher-hewn, more natural-terrain thing more like early European motocross would that make it more attractive? Or is doing your own thing in your own undisturbed line so ingrained in gravity MTB (one person against a clock or two people in separate lanes) that anything truly heads-up is distasteful?

I've thought about this, I've raced boarder cross before and had a good time doing it. I may race it again next year. But I still haven't bothered with a 4X race.

 

[RD]

give me some Michelin MUD 1s, an unmowed half pipe at Killington, some kitty litter, some gates and some drunken college kids.

TRAIL 66 slalom at its finest. Oh the memories.

 

[BC VAN]

the original idea of 4 racers instead of the 2 man dual format that UCI was running was due to the the fact that the UCI Dual format had become take out races...with 4 riders if 3rd place cleans out 2nd the penalty was that the dirty rider most likely would still not advance.. in the finals you hope smart riding prevails.

i had discussed it with Troy Lee and he got us a gig at the Glen Helen Motocross National between the first and 2nd Moto's of the outdoor nationals, it was a big opportunity and i wanted to make it good.

i built the biggest stuff i thought we could jump in the small area provided, i think all of us riders were scared to hit the jumps but afterwards we were stoked and surprised that even the moto fans were pumped to, that day i realized that the format could be really good and we could do stuff on our bikes that would/could appeal to fans outside of MTB.

As Stik mentioned i was also in the middle realizing my potential as a Downhill racer on the World Cup circuit... my boss at GT gave me the choice to promote races or be a World Cup racer...so i did the Racer gig, a year later i switched to the Mongoose program and they embraced it as a chance to gain publicity through being connected to me as a promoter, so Brian Schmith and I built the Sea Otter and Vermont courses and everything was looking good again...fans loved it racers loved it and there was some good clean passing.
with Mongoose we also got a foot in the door to Gravity Games but the project got overbid and declined, i think had we got that gig things would be completely different now?
then it got adopted to Norba and World Cup and begun a tail spin that it is still in today.

the courses for Norba (understandably,but a bit to much) got watered down to make the amateur classes want to race and the world cup courses struggled to be built correctly to incorporate clean passing.

my vision was for big jumps that have long safe take offs and transitions....good flowing jumps on the straights with corners that make riders use both brakes and gears as well as sections that were rougher to reward riders on suspension ( all things that separate MTB from BMX)

what is out there now is hard for me to watch....sometimes the courses are really good with good lines and some passing...but most the time it is really bad....the consistency of good courses at the World Cup level is hard for me to understand?

in the states at the Norba level it became a question of budget...these courses are expensive to build and to do them temporary makes no business sense for Norba level stuff, but World Cup has the budget and its the highest level of racing....IMO there is no excuse for crappy courses, i wish i had the time to do the courses as i'm 100% confident that i could build them in a fashion that would be great passing with big jumps and good flow, seriously it's not that hard if you know what your looking at and understand the theory and concept behind building passing into a course.

like i told you at Sea Otter Stik, i would rather see Dual Slalom then the 4x we are being given these days......but i still think 4x is our best vehicle to bring new fans and sponsors to the sport.....a good 4x at night with lights music and beer, is very enjoyable to watch.
Unfortunately we all would have a better chance to find a leprechaun riding a unicorn holding a 4 leaf clover then getting all of that at the same time.

 

[stiksandstones]

 

[Homey]

Well...there's the proof from Stik!

When do we see "a good 4x at night with lights music and beer, is very enjoyable to watch."???

Seriously though, it would be nice to have a permenant track that was on some donated land. Sell it like they sell skate parks. I can dream, right?

 

[slyfink]

OK, so I've been following this thread since it started, but there's one thing that I still can't quite figure out: what is it about 4x today that you guys don't like? The only thing I have gleaned from this thread is that the courses are expensive to build and, mostly, the racing is too focused on contact and taking people out rather than on riding skill. But that's a function of the riders themselves and their chosen tactics, not the courses isn't it?

I've watched every 4x on freecaster since its been live, and love the action. I was really disappointed with what happened to Jared Graves at Worlds (& he seemed to have terrible luck in the 07 season), but other than that, holy hell is it ever fun to watch. I only got a sense of how big and how much skill these guys and gals need to have when I went to Bromont to watch the event live. Then, I got a chance to ride parts of the course before they knocked it all down. My God, you need TALENT to ride these. To rail those turns, keep enough speed to make the doubles, all the while battling it out with other riders to get the best line? un-fricken-real talent they got going...

So, my question remains, what is it about "modern" 4x courses that doesn't sit well with you guys? and I mean the courses, not the riders or their tactics?

If, as BC Van (is that really Eric Carter?!?) said its a question of course design, then why not find some better course designers?

 

[MinorThreat]

Seriously though, it would be nice to have a permenant track that was on some donated land. Sell it like they sell skate parks. I can dream, right?

That may be what it takes? A permanent course (or maybe 2 or 3?) down in SoCal under the lights built really well that can be 'anchor venues' for weekly racing year-'round (Friday nights?). Seems to me, those could become the Ascots, Coronas and Perris Valleys of 4X.

 

[stiksandstones]

That may be what it takes? A permanent course (or maybe 2 or 3?) down in SoCal under the lights built really well that can be 'anchor venues' for weekly racing year-'round (Friday nights?). Seems to me, those could become the Ascots, Coronas and Perris Valleys of 4X.

There is something brewing in the OC for a bikepark, they just got city approval a couple months back. The intent there is a family riding vibe for now, but the people involved have something like you mention in their heads. But its all fairy tales at this point...

 

[BC VAN]

so when/if you watched the last 4x race from South Afirica your telling me that you that the racing was entertaining? i personally thought it was very boring.... it is impressive to watch riders negotiate big obstacles at speed but from a racing stand point it was like a high speed parade.

to answer your question, what i dont like to see is one lined courses were riders are forced to one line because it is so much faster then riding any other line.

that usually happens for 2 reasons...the straightaways are to short to make it worth going outside, riding the berm to carry exit speed to pass on the straightaway....or the courses are so fast that everyone is riding down at the same speed without having to brake.

OK, so I've been following this thread since it started, but there's one thing that I still can't quite figure out: what is it about 4x today that you guys don't like? The only thing I have gleaned from this thread is that the courses are expensive to build and, mostly, the racing is too focused on contact and taking people out rather than on riding skill. But that's a function of the riders themselves and their chosen tactics, not the courses isn't it?

I've watched every 4x on freecaster since its been live, and love the action. I was really disappointed with what happened to Jared Graves at Worlds (& he seemed to have terrible luck in the 07 season), but other than that, holy hell is it ever fun to watch. I only got a sense of how big and how much skill these guys and gals need to have when I went to Bromont to watch the event live. Then, I got a chance to ride parts of the course before they knocked it all down. My God, you need TALENT to ride these. To rail those turns, keep enough speed to make the doubles, all the while battling it out with other riders to get the best line? un-fricken-real talent they got going...

So, my question remains, what is it about "modern" 4x courses that doesn't sit well with you guys? and I mean the courses, not the riders or their tactics?

If, as BC Van (is that really Eric Carter?!?) said its a question of course design, then why not find some better course designers?

 

[gemini2k]

but i still think 4x is our best vehicle to bring new fans and sponsors to the sport.....a good 4x at night with lights music and beer, is very enjoyable to watch.

Fact. Watching the Worlds 4x at Rotorua a few years ago was just amazing. Good big courses = awezomeness.

 

[slyfink]

so when/if you watched the last 4x race from South Afirica your telling me that you that the racing was entertaining? i personally thought it was very boring.... it is impressive to watch riders negotiate big obstacles at speed but from a racing stand point it was like a high speed parade.

to answer your question, what i dont like to see is one lined courses were riders are forced to one line because it is so much faster then riding any other line.

that usually happens for 2 reasons...the straightaways are to short to make it worth going outside, riding the berm to carry exit speed to pass on the straightaway....or the courses are so fast that everyone is riding down at the same speed without having to brake.

Yeah, I did like the PMB races, but not as much the one in Vigo or Bromont for example... But maybe it was because it was the first race of the year and I was jonesing for some action, any action!

But I see your points. More lines would make for better entertainment, because even if a rider is shut out of one line, they can still make it up elsewhere. In PMBs defence though, I saw CG try that when he was shut out of the hole-shot and decided to hang back a bit boost a large jump (triple maybe?). But your point still stands, in most cases, the person who nailed the hole-shot would stay out front for the rest of the race.

Still, I think that's a problem with course design (as you pointed out), not necessarily the 4x as a format. I still think 4x is more entertaining for the average punter than DS. I know how much skill is required to ride DS caus' I (tried to) ride one course: the one in the Boneyard at Whistler, but I think for the average fan and the non-fan, 4x has more potential than DS.... (those little tiny berms are sooooo hard to rail at speed)

Here's hoping the course designers add some longer straight-aways, and passing locations on 4X courses!

 

[slyfink]

OK so I just watched the PMB 4X again. BC Van was right. it was looooong and boring. But I still think 4X is more fun to watch than DS. And I would encourage the UCI to make better tracks. Maybe they could hire EC to build them...

 

[ztlh13]

The WORLD has decided that 4X is the format of choice for racing and yet we (Americans) have to endure DS after DS race or like the posts have mentioned a lot of crap 4X courses b/c NORBA won't pony the bill for dirt, tractors and talented groomers.

If you want to race in a lane by yourself there is DH, we do not need DS and I will be glad when it finally dies a true death. One day soon there won't be any Americans battling in slalom b/c we don't give them the training grounds to develop their skills.

Yeah DS

 

[spornographer]

it shouldn't be an argument of "contact is just part of the sport, don't be a puss." it's the fact that the contact is excessive, dangerous and makes the event look like roller derby.

4x/mtx suffers from too much contact. if you're not first out of the gate, passing, based on skill, is seldom seen, so contact is necessary if you don't have a good gate. once momentum is lost b/c of contact (usually in the first corner), the race is over and boring.

boardercross favors technique/strategy over strength/contact and competitors seem to refrain from contact. 4x is all about the gate, boardercross isn't. yeah, start is important in boardercross, but passing, drafting, board prep and line choice are what win the race

motorized sports don't encourage heavy contact because lost momentum can quickly be regained. t-boning someone is a lot more risky on a 250lb bike as well, with less to be gained from the contact.

4x should be chainless, then it would be about skill, not gate snap or t-boning.

dual slalom is 100% skill and fitness-based and does not involve the risk of being taken out by a hot-head rider. if a competitor drifts into the other rider's line, they get the 1.5, no advantage.

edit: if a good 4x track forumla was possible, don't you think it would have been found by now? it's the format, not the track design.

 

[Ithnu]

If you want to race in a lane by yourself there is DH

If you want to bang elbows and worry about gate snaps instead of cornering there is BMX.

 

[sbabuser]

If you want to bang elbows and worry about gate snaps instead of cornering there is BMX.

+1.

For me, ds is more fun than 4x, and I like getting two opportunities to win per race. I can see why 4x wins from a scheduling standpoint though, it's obviously quicker and easier to fit into a wkend.

What is missing for both is places to practice, and we're working on that in CO...

 

[slyfink]

4x should be chainless, then it would be about skill, not gate snap or t-boning.

now there's an idea... that would be awesome!

 

[MinorThreat]

+1.

For me, ds is more fun than 4x, and I like getting two opportunities to win per race. I can see why 4x wins from a scheduling standpoint though, it's obviously quicker and easier to fit into a wkend.

What is missing for both is places to practice, and we're working on that in CO...

OK - - now my next dumb question: Right now, 4X is pretty much all single-elimination, right? Would it help, and give people more racing opportunity, to do it as heats, semis and mains (motorsports style)? Top placings go to an A-B semi, rest to a C-semi. Finishing in the A-B semis dtermine going to A- or B-Mains and a C-Main as sort of a consolation round?

BTW, I'm soaking up the discussion and varying opinions; sorry if it feels like I'm stirring the pot.

 

[Ithnu]

BTW, I'm soaking up the discussion and varying opinions; sorry if it feels like I'm stirring the pot.

I see this as a great discussion, so no worries from me.

 

[stiksandstones]

OK - - now my next dumb question: Right now, 4X is pretty much all single-elimination, right? Would it help, and give people more racing opportunity, to do it as heats, semis and mains (motorsports style)? Top placings go to an A-B semi, rest to a C-semi. Finishing in the A-B semis dtermine going to A- or B-Mains and a C-Main as sort of a consolation round?

BTW, I'm soaking up the discussion and varying opinions; sorry if it feels like I'm stirring the pot.

Donny did his indoor las vegas 4-cross with a format like this...I heard he took the format from flat track. The spectators (all 9 of them) were given handbooks and pens to follow along, keeping points on who advanced.

That being said, I was so confused all night, had not a clue what was going on. The current format is fine for me (minus sucky tracks), if you fail, you are done

 

[slowitdown]

I belive that DS shows real talent on a Mt bike., not an over sized BMX race on a DH Slope.

true in my view as well, I see 4X / MtnX as BMX on MTBs. now that's a cool thing for the former BMX racer but it clearly favors BMX racers. if 4x or Mtn X had rough, technical tracks they might resemble MTB races a bit more, IMO.

I don't think racing should be conducted for the purpose of selling anything. it should be a contest among cyclists. I'm sure that's a weird perspective to offer, but it's what I think.

 

[olddogbmxer]

The biggest issue with 4X is that there are no good courses built, mostly temporary and with as little $$$ as possible which results in what we have today.BMX has the formula dialed in with great tracks all over the country, consistent rules, categories and costs.This brings us to the real issue with MTB racing - the venues are all private profit generating businesses instead of being operated by a sanctioning body like the NBL(while far from perfect)in BMX whose sole mission is to provide a place for people to race and revenue is put back into the organization, tracks and to the riders.It is a totally different model than MTB racing. I spent 10+ years racing in the NBL and then came into MTB and got involved with some mountains and also running a series and it can be very frustrating dealing with people who care absolutely nothing about the sport except for what they can put in their pocket(which is not in itself a bad thing as they are running a business).MTB is loaded with volunteers who at the end of the day are actually supporting businesses in their efforts to have a place to race.

 

[bpatterson6]

I happen to agree with EC on the track issues, but I disagree with others about contact and Gate snaps. Everyone has the same opportunity on the gate now that it's UCI random cadence at most venues. I think the bone headed moves that take out people and obvious efforts to t-bone people and commit a foul could be handled by having more on course judges to make crucial calls when these kinds of things take place. Right now, in the many such instances I've seen and from the Graves bit that went on a few years ago that's what should have happened, but no official was willing to make any call much less the right call. No matter what happens, there are just people who don't like 4x and have a bias toward it and I don't think you'll ever change those hearts and minds. Just my $0.02

 

[Homey]

There is something brewing in the OC for a bikepark, they just got city approval a couple months back. The intent there is a family riding vibe for now, but the people involved have something like you mention in their heads. But its all fairy tales at this point...

Is there anyone I can get in contact with to help out?


As far as 4x...EC nailed it with the comment about $$$ and US racing. Four guys with shovels cannot get a 4x course built and tested in the time they are given. UCI (as said before) has a formula, and a budget, that works thats why UCI events look so much better.

NORBA needs to attract riders back to the sport before they can get fans and sponsors. If they need a model all they have to do is look at the Sea Otter course and question the riders about what they want.

One more thing - can we stop comparing MTB's to Flat Track! Seriously...bad comparison (don't be too offended)

 

[MinorThreat]

One more thing - can we stop comparing MTB's to Flat Track! Seriously...bad comparison (don't be too offended)

Oh, that's entirely my fault, because that was my own frame of reference for tight, short-but-intense, contact-possible racing. Don't be too hard on me; I'm an old guy trying to find my way in a young guy's sport .

I'm also a volunteer race co-promoter and I'm trying to formulate an idea for a 4x-like form of racing that would have better mass appeal, both for racers and spectators.

. . . and I still think dual is one of the sillier things I've seen.

 

[Homey]

Oh, that's entirely my fault, because that was my own frame of reference for tight, short-but-intense, contact-possible racing. Don't be too hard on me; I'm an old guy trying to find my way in a young guy's sport .

That's cool. I was just giving you a hard time

Have you ever ridden a dual slalom course (a good one)? I think you might have a better understanding if you have. DS is one of the harder things to do when you are first starting out. I remember trying it for the first time in Irvine (2000). I didn't know anything about DS and found this track from the local bike store. I went there and saw a bunch of guy's and girls in matching uniforms with the same bike. I kind of laughed at first and thought they were weird. I didn't see them ride so I decided to take a run on the track. Man did I suck! I couldn't get through the first 5 turns without having to stop. It took a week or so before I could get down the course and when I finally got the hang of it, it was awesome! Turns out that the "weird" people where the Cannondale team (Lopes, ACC, Gracia, and some Sweed with a mohawk...hell, Stik was probably there too). Lopes was cool and gave me some pointers...didn't even know who he was until I saw him at my first Sea Otter. I got 2nd place in Beginner that year and was hooked from there on out.

DS is grass roots and is pure skill. I would hate to see it forgotten.

 

[stiksandstones]

Turns out that the "weird" people where the Cannondale team (Lopes, ACC, Gracia, and some Sweed with a mohawk...hell, Stik was probably there too).

Johann Engstromm-'The Swede with Speed'
greatest mud rider of all time.

 

[ZoRo]

Yeah for dual! Don't tell me that race doesn't look fun for the spectators AND racers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ls49-1acj9A&hl=fr&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ls49-1acj9A&hl=fr&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[ska todd]

Funny, Crankworx 07 slalom was a sh1tshow that turned into some good times for all. Some timing snafus turned into an impromptu photoshoot/bermblast session. That was rad. The event was then run the next day and JD almost knocked off Hill and Minnaar beat Hill for the win.

-ska todd

 

[ztlh13]

If you want to bang elbows and worry about gate snaps instead of cornering there is BMX.

I think this comparison is made b/c the courses we have been offered to date. MTX should be on a full-suspension bike and the course needs to reward a MTB rider with rock gardens and longer straights. And yes cornering is still a important component of 4X and the silent gate takes some of the gate emphasis away.

Ultimately, riders good at DS are usually good at 4X and vice versa. I think both highlight the MTB skills, but the currently accepted form around the world is 4X and America needs to get in line and quit reliving the good old days. I am an older rider that never raced BMX and didn't start riding a MTB until I was 27 and I like 4X much more. Plus in the southeast, all we have are DS courses, so I am not coming from a BMX biased background.

What I would like to see is a few rounds of motos to seed the racers, 4X is over fast so why not extend the qualifying to let all the riders have more race runs?

 

[stiksandstones]

Something has always irritated me about 4x 'specialists', like the fact the top 4x specialist riders would get slaughtered in a DH race (see Kintner, Prokop).

I will get over it though, it used to irritate me that Mcgrath went supercross only and stopped doing outdoors, but I moved on.

 

[sbabuser]

If you want to race in a lane by yourself there is DH, we do not need DS and I will be glad when it finally dies a true death. (

Seems like mostly ppl with bmx backgrounds say 4x is great, down with ds. And then the ppl without bmx background asking for ds.

If you truly want to bring more people in, you need to focus on a format that draws ppl with varying backgrounds.

 

[BC VAN]

i dont think so,

good course design would let the format shine a lot better.....im not sure what video its in..i think one by Clay Porter?
but there is footage of a course Glen Jacobs did in Tasmania....if someone could find and post that (i'm not good enough on the computer) you'll see how a good course makes the format realize its true potential.

edit: if a good 4x track forumla was possible, don't you think it would have been found by now? it's the format, not the track design.