[BC VAN]

there are so many issues with executing good 4x racing in the states. here are just a few

funding, it cost a lot to build a true proper course, depending on dirt, equipment and time available it could be 5 to 25 g to build a course! the only place this makes sense is private land,bike or city parks where a course can live permanently so the cost can be offset by multiple races, income can be brought in from sponsors and entry fee's.

competent designer, if a individual does decide to pony up the dough now they have to find a designer, the easy part is the jumps....the hard part is the turns....the size, distance and shape of the berms make or brake the course and racing....it is super hard to nail it the first time through...so if your limited on time it can turn into a crap shoot...often 3 feet difference of where the inside in relation to the berm is will make the difference.

grass roots, we have no where to do this type of racing/riding, it is getting better, i know that bike parks are starting to include them but riders are uncomfortable racing with others if they never do it on the local level.

hats off to the colorado region and any other promoter/series that still does 4x, for pushing forward with 4x racing to keep preparing riders for world cup format racing, like it or not, at the highest level of racing thats the format.

all being said i would rather do crappy slalom more then crappy 4x....a bad DS can still be fun, but bad 4x really isnt very fun.

 

[BC VAN]

i agree with you Stik,

but i don't fault the riders....if they can make a career out of being a specialist i think it is smart... doing just 4x minimizes the risk of injury, i think DH is way more dangerous,
i tried for a couple of years to get Norba to create a combined overall for the DH and DS or 4x, if they would create a combined title and give it the highest honor as far as recognition and reward i think we would see a lot of really well rounded riders develop again.

Something has always irritated me about 4x 'specialists', like the fact the top 4x specialist riders would get slaughtered in a DH race (see Kintner, Prokop).

I will get over it though, it used to irritate me that Mcgrath went supercross only and stopped doing outdoors, but I moved on.

 

[spornographer]

i dont think so,

good course design would let the format shine a lot better.....im not sure what video its in..i think one by Clay Porter?
but there is footage of a course Glen Jacobs did in Tasmania....if someone could find and post that (i'm not good enough on the computer) you'll see how a good course makes the format realize its true potential.

but that's one course in years of 4x racing. i guess i should rephrase and say part of the reason the format is flawed is because it takes a $$$ track to get things done seemingly right.

(for the record, i'm not anti-4x. i just think slalom serves the general mountain biking population better, regardless of what the UCI says is gospel for elite world cup competition. this whole thread/discussion is awesome!)

 

[Transcend]

Dual will have better turn out racerwise, costs less to run and almost always guarantees good racing, even on a crap course. What's not to like?

I like 4x (I raced BX), but it will never be done right by the UCI unfortunately I don't think.

 

[ska todd]

A couple years back at a World Cup I found myself in a discussion with some riders about these same topics. One of the ideas thrown out there by a rider was to run 4X World Cup in the traditional "off season" - Sept to Feb.

His logic was rather well thought out and everyone agreed that it could work out pretty well. There is precedent with the UCI and in cycling with cyclocross being the off-season compliment to road racing. It also draws comparison to moto.

Some of the advantages:

1. Move gravity mountain biking closer to population centers
a. Can run races in typically hot areas indoors or if they are Northern Hemisphere they could be run outdoors.
b. Can hold races in "flat" areas and not have to be worried about the DH event needs.

2. Access to places such as Southern Hemisphere, Middle East, Caribbean, Southern USA that would not typically see World Cup gravity mountain biking b/c of scheduling, weather, or topography.

3. For the racers
a. off-season racing to keep in shape
b. better chance for higher wage by racing both seasons
c. more exposure for riders from non-traditional mtb countries
d. cross over of athletes from BMX & vice versa
e. ability to race 4X and DH without worrying about blowing yourself up and compromising your living in the other

4. Courses
a. built specifically for the venue and the discipline and not force fit
b. better course construction b/c more financial & time resources from promoter (ie. not splitting time & money on DH course)

5. Other
a. enclosed or confined outside venues close to population centers better able to draw media
b. better TV exposure since will be shown in Northern Hemisphere winter when viewership goes up
c. more fans attending since they won't be out riding/racing themselves

Thoughts?

-ska todd

 

[Pip3r]

Running 4x in the off season is a super good idea! I had never thought of that. I would think team budgets could be an issue. Then again, getting the races closer to urban areas would definitely bring more exposure in and maybe get spectators there excited enough to tune into the DH world cup later on. Ill never forget going to the Red Bull Soap Box derby race in Providence and being blown away by the thousands of people there just to watch heaps of crap fly down a hill, just because it was something to do on a nice day and right in the middle of the city!
The total separation of events too might make the different disciplines easier to differentiate and understand to the general public.

 

[stiksandstones]

A couple years back at a World Cup I found myself in a discussion with some riders about these same topics. One of the ideas thrown out there by a rider was to run 4X World Cup in the traditional "off season" - Sept to Feb.

His logic was rather well thought out and everyone agreed that it could work out pretty well. There is precedent with the UCI and in cycling with cyclocross being the off-season compliment to road racing. It also draws comparison to moto.

Some of the advantages:

1. Move gravity mountain biking closer to population centers
a. Can run races in typically hot areas indoors or if they are Northern Hemisphere they could be run outdoors.
b. Can hold races in "flat" areas and not have to be worried about the DH event needs.

2. Access to places such as Southern Hemisphere, Middle East, Caribbean, Southern USA that would not typically see World Cup gravity mountain biking b/c of scheduling, weather, or topography.

3. For the racers
a. off-season racing to keep in shape
b. better chance for higher wage by racing both seasons
c. more exposure for riders from non-traditional mtb countries
d. cross over of athletes from BMX & vice versa
e. ability to race 4X and DH without worrying about blowing yourself up and compromising your living in the other

4. Courses
a. built specifically for the venue and the discipline and not force fit
b. better course construction b/c more financial & time resources from promoter (ie. not splitting time & money on DH course)

5. Other
a. enclosed or confined outside venues close to population centers better able to draw media
b. better TV exposure since will be shown in Northern Hemisphere winter when viewership goes up
c. more fans attending since they won't be out riding/racing themselves

Thoughts?

-ska todd

When my wife was on the norba board, back in the dark ages, she proposed (with a pretty sweet powerpoint presentation) an off season series consisting of only short track and Dual (or slalom) to be held in larger markets (L.A., Boston, NYC, etc...) she even went so far as to contact large sponsors in these markets who expressed interest....but was laughed at from the USAC goons, she was still racing, was getting over the whole thing and just threw in the towel.

When she quit racing and went to work for hansens marketing, she proposed this notion to UCI about having dual/4x series in the winter months, the notion did not gain any traction again and she scrapped any ideas for MTBing and went on to something completely un-bike related.

 

[MinorThreat]

When she quit racing and went to work for hansens marketing, she proposed this notion to UCI about having dual/4x series in the winter months, the notion did not gain any traction again and she scrapped any ideas for MTBing and went on to something completely un-bike related.

That is so too bad. Underlying current in all this seems to be the lack of vision and a true commitment to advancing the gravity end of mountain biking by the governing bodies.

 

[BC VAN]

i would say that is the major reason... i would say that the execution more so then the format itself is what is flawed.

format

but that's one course in years of 4x racing. i guess i should rephrase and say part of the reason the format is flawed is because it takes a $$$ track to get things done seemingly right.

(for the record, i'm not anti-4x. i just think slalom serves the general mountain biking population better, regardless of what the UCI says is gospel for elite world cup competition. this whole thread/discussion is awesome!)

 

[BC VAN]

all very good thoughts and points, you wonder why these logical concepts can't be put into action?

aside from all of this posted, i think that the key to more participation is rewarding riders who do both events, they should receive the highest honor i think?, instead they are not only not recognized but penalized by riders who are specialist.

A couple years back at a World Cup I found myself in a discussion with some riders about these same topics. One of the ideas thrown out there by a rider was to run 4X World Cup in the traditional "off season" - Sept to Feb.

His logic was rather well thought out and everyone agreed that it could work out pretty well. There is precedent with the UCI and in cycling with cyclocross being the off-season compliment to road racing. It also draws comparison to moto.

Some of the advantages:

1. Move gravity mountain biking closer to population centers
a. Can run races in typically hot areas indoors or if they are Northern Hemisphere they could be run outdoors.
b. Can hold races in "flat" areas and not have to be worried about the DH event needs.

2. Access to places such as Southern Hemisphere, Middle East, Caribbean, Southern USA that would not typically see World Cup gravity mountain biking b/c of scheduling, weather, or topography.

3. For the racers
a. off-season racing to keep in shape
b. better chance for higher wage by racing both seasons
c. more exposure for riders from non-traditional mtb countries
d. cross over of athletes from BMX & vice versa
e. ability to race 4X and DH without worrying about blowing yourself up and compromising your living in the other

4. Courses
a. built specifically for the venue and the discipline and not force fit
b. better course construction b/c more financial & time resources from promoter (ie. not splitting time & money on DH course)

5. Other
a. enclosed or confined outside venues close to population centers better able to draw media
b. better TV exposure since will be shown in Northern Hemisphere winter when viewership goes up
c. more fans attending since they won't be out riding/racing themselves

Thoughts?

-ska todd

 

[stiksandstones]

^ like most things in life, a financial reward would get most to do both events. Like a gravity omnium that EC has mentioned, but then you will get the XC boys crying the blues "We race a long and difficult XC then have to race short track".

SPeaking of, I always found it funny the world cups do not have a 'short track' event, like the USA races...short track created to 'save the sport' according to one heavy set NORBA guy back in the day.

 

[stiksandstones]

Cedric update from 4X in belgium
(first time they are doing a 4X with a XC world cup)
Can they just kill 4X already?


from cedric:
Cedric Gracia is back from practise ! The Belgium jumps to small ! What a f@ck ?

 

[stiksandstones]

more 4x drama....love it
from 4x specialist and olympic something or other

HOUFFALIZE, BELGIUM
We are at the second round of the World Cup for 4x in Belgium!! It is nice and green here, probably from all the rain that is falling down as I type. Bryn has come with me to this event as Logistics manager/ mechanic He rented a little motor home (for almost the same price as a regular van), which we delicately named "The battle truck" after he sideswiped an Audi on the Autobahn, minor scratches, no biggie. But I think it looks more like Elvis from the side . 4x track looks like it was built for ants. Jumps are so small, no rythm, but there are it has high speed right from the start, and some difficult turns depending on flag placement. Dirt is sand for drainage so maybe I will concentrate on those challenges instead of the lack of difficulty. I was pretty bummed when I saw this track, but I am still ready and happy to be here.

 

[ska todd]

Stik & EC - Maybe the climate is right for something like this now vs a few years back. It's the only way I could see 4X moving ahead as a viable discipline.

Regarding the omnium concept, I don't think it will bring any changes. The DH specialists will just ride DH, the 4X guys just the 4X. You'll still have the same DH & 4X champs and then a guy who is pretty good at both but not a podium rider taking the overall.

Didn't they use the the standard XC for the short track originally, like a quali? And wasn't it something BITD where the DS was used as qualifiers for the DH? Maybe something like this would be the only way to integrate it?

Oh and Houfallize? I was hoping this might be the savior for 4X by combining it w/ XC and the rabid Belgian fans. Sucks those fans will see a lame race.

-ska todd

 

[Transcend]

4X doesn't need a saviour. It needs an executioner.

 

[ska todd]

c'mon Fraser, you don't have to sell hardtails like some of us do

-ska todd

 

[Transcend]

c'mon Fraser, you don't have to sell hardtails like some of us do

-ska todd

Hardtails make killer slalom bikes.

 

[ska todd]

Yes, perhaps even better than 4X

-ska todd

 

[stiksandstones]

Stik & EC - Maybe the climate is right for something like this now vs a few years back. It's the only way I could see 4X moving ahead as a viable discipline.

Regarding the omnium concept, I don't think it will bring any changes. The DH specialists will just ride DH, the 4X guys just the 4X. You'll still have the same DH & 4X champs and then a guy who is pretty good at both but not a podium rider taking the overall.

Didn't they use the the standard XC for the short track originally, like a quali? And wasn't it something BITD where the DS was used as qualifiers for the DH? Maybe something like this would be the only way to integrate it?

Oh and Houfallize? I was hoping this might be the savior for 4X by combining it w/ XC and the rabid Belgian fans. Sucks those fans will see a lame race.

-ska todd

You are right I think, 4x is so ****astic now that it needs some change so I think the timing is good for something.

There is a way to get DH racers involved in it, but I think it has to do with getting rid of the gate haha.
Guys like a Kovarik/Neethling/Peat for example, who can rip at 4x, but have a crappy start...maybe borrow 4 barndoor gates from snowboarding.

I think about the Otter slalom, how hammered Sam Hills legs were (rightfully so! 16 runs of sprinting!) when it was over and it affected his DH performance the next day. So lets say the otter was a world cup, I have to ask myself 'where is the incentive for him to do BOTH events'? and that incentive comes from the event PAYING him good prize money, his sponsors wanting him to do well in 2 events per weekend vs 1 and the fans wanting to see him race in 2 big events per weekend.

I think back to riders I worked with in the past and I pushed them so hard to race both, more exposure, stoke the sponsor out and for someone like my wife who could win both events in a weekend that was double payday (she would get slalom and DH prize money, slalom and DH bonus money, slalom and DH tv time, slalom and DH mag pics....all from ONE WEEKEND). (ya ya EC, I know chick racing is way easier than the boys)

Maybe time for sponsors to say "hey...we want you racing both events".

Do you, the fan want a Greg Minnaar winning every DH world cup, or would he be getting sponsor/fan mileage if he was lets say 5th every weekend in DH and getting round of 8 4x results?


4X riders I don't think have the pull DH riders have with UCI. If a prokop, rinderknecht, kintner complain, it goes in one ear out the other...but if Peat, Minnaar, Sam, Fabien voice some concern, they are the sports bread and butter, maybe they would listen to them???

 

[Transcend]

Slalom finals Friday, XC Finals Saturday, DH Finals Sunday

Good for fans, good for venues, good for sponsors and promoters...

 

[stiksandstones]

Slalom finals Friday, XC Finals Saturday, DH Finals Sunday

Good for fans, good for venues, good for sponsors and promoters...

DHers want to party saturday night, wake the XCers up.

How about slalom thursday, free beer
friday karting
DH saturday
XC sun
haha

 

[ska todd]

I think a few years back it might have made sense, but now the competition in the top 5, top 10, top 20 is so tight that you need those legs for the next day. A top 5 in the DH gets more exposure that the winner in the 4X. The top 10 in DH probably better than the top 3 slots in 4X. Where do you see shots of 4X...ever?

It's also the whole "a broken racer can't race" philosophy. Would you risk having your top 5 DH guy race for a maybe top 10 4X and have him taken out by a guy with "a hard on for contact" (props to litter)?

-ska todd

 

[MinorThreat]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and pot-stirrer again. Sorry in advance.

Would it help the crossover if the title, rather than being DH or 4X or slalom, was a Gravity title? And, instead of having both DH and 4X or dual at each venue, there is one at one venue one week and the other at another venue the next week. In order to garner enough points for a title, you HAVE to race the different disciplines to stand a chance of winning.

I KNOW you are all tired of the parallels I draw, but think of the AMA Grand National circuit - - races are comprised of mile, half-mile, TT and short track. There are racers who are "specialists," in that they are better at one of those (there are guys that own the big mile and there are some that shine in the doglegs and jumping of the TT, etc) but they all have to race 'em all to accumulate enough points in the race for the #1 plate.

Seems to me a series like that would save people's legs and make for more well-rounded competition. Is that a naive thought?

 

[slyfink]

Stik, is this when the 4X on the off season begins to make sense again? That way the athletes wouldn't burn their legs out trying to compete in two events. They would also be able to train differently as each season approached.

Personally, as a spectator (i.e. I'm not in the industry), I would love it. First of all, the true talent of the racers would show, and not just their fitness (I think that's one of the key things that differentiates mtbing from other cycling disciplines - bike handling skills), and secondly it would prolong the season. Keeps me (the consumer) watching more, and consuming more, and it gives the promoters and sponsors more visibility.

And with Freecaster and the likes now broadcasting over the interweb instead of on tv... it might change the dynamics at play in the UCI decision-making process no?

Is it feasible to think that a consortium of riders, team managers and event promoters could band together to make the pitch to the UCI? Kinda like the way the pro-tour teams in road cycling have a "union" and are able, granted to varying degrees, to influence the UCI and other bodies?

Just thinking out loud here....

 

[Gobig]

I agree. 4x tracks need some help on the World Stage. Maybe start with the hanging of 4x Phil would ge the ball rolling. And someone like EC in full control.
Why not have 3 events over a WC weekend DH, DS,4x!

Stik you seem to bag on Prokop and co but they still getting the name out there in BMX as well during a season so still pretty good from a sponsors point off view. ( Double dipping! )
Just cause they don't race DH you play them.
Yes Propkop would not be a player in DH just the same as the top DH guy in BMX apart from Graves and the Lopes, Cully, King , Carter era.
Lets face it the top DH boys don't race 4x cause there 2 busy after the DH finals getting saused up in the beer tent playing it 100+ G club !!!
Fans like it all in my book ! and the fans love Stiks Freeze caster interviews as well!

 

[Pip3r]

If an 'offseason' winter series got put together who said it had to be 4x or Slalom? Why not have both (but only 1 even per weekend), to mix it up a bit. Almost like the Qashqai series where it was the same principle of 'free ride' but mixed up with different types of specific events.
Having a 'gated racing' series where each event is a bit different could be real interesting. Slalom, Duel, 4x, 6x, Urban, BMX track, drag race, whatever! That would also give flexibility to possible venues to construct what would work best for them instead of demanding tracks meet certain criteria that just aren't practical in a certain local.

 

[Homey]

DS/4X in the off season would keep gravity in the media year-round which would make manufacturers happier I would think. Same reason SX/MX has opposite seasons.

Also, NO MORE FLAT TRACK COMPARISONS!!!

 

[stiksandstones]

I agree. 4x tracks need some help on the World Stage. Maybe start with the hanging of 4x Phil would ge the ball rolling. And someone like EC in full control.
Why not have 3 events over a WC weekend DH, DS,4x!

Stik you seem to bag on Prokop and co but they still getting the name out there in BMX as well during a season so still pretty good from a sponsors point off view. ( Double dipping! )
Just cause they don't race DH you play them.
Yes Propkop would not be a player in DH just the same as the top DH guy in BMX apart from Graves and the Lopes, Cully, King , Carter era.
Lets face it the top DH boys don't race 4x cause there 2 busy after the DH finals getting saused up in the beer tent playing it 100+ G club !!!
Fans like it all in my book ! and the fans love Stiks Freeze caster interviews as well!

First off GoBig, my typing makes it looks like I don't like a prokop, not the case. I respect his (and the like) talents-big time! not to mention Prokop and most of the 4x specialists are pretty good people. And getting the name out there is a point I hear a lot, but I have seen freecaster live 4X numbers vs DH and it pales.

Leave BMX talk out of it, this is mountain bikes son, big boy bikes. I have always said in a perfect world, BMX would be your preschool and then you graduate into mountain bike Downhill...there should be an age limit on BMX, 25 yrs old and you are OUT.

I will also add, the 4X ONLY riders are like the ghosts of the circuit. When I worked for freecaster in Austria last year, DH riders were everywhere to be found, talking the smack, interviews, gossip, hanging in the pits.....We could not find any 4X riders, they were all gone....maybe getting prepared for their HUGE event of 30 seconds.....

 

[luiz carlos]

DS/4X in the off season would keep gravity in the media year-round which would make manufacturers happier I would think. Same reason SX/MX has opposite seasons.

I think it's a good idea....

 

[Transcend]

I think it's a good idea....

That's because you are neither traveling as an athlete, traveling as a journalist or funding a team as an owner/sponsor.

 

[MinorThreat]

Also, NO MORE FLAT TRACK COMPARISONS!!!

It's a sideways thing. I'll try to refrain .

 

[ska todd]

That's because you are neither traveling as an athlete, traveling as a journalist or funding a team as an owner/sponsor.

Actually, the added costs aren't that much more. If you are already carrying a 4X rider it's the same basic cost, just shifted to different months. If you are a large team or have a lot of global distributors, you know that there are requests all 12 mos of the year for sponsored athlete visits. A global format would meet these needs. It's all in the same vein. It might impact privateers/freelancers a bit more than the "factory" guys but no one would be holding a gun to anyones' head. Most pro roadies don't race cross in the winter, some do as do some XC guys. It's treated rather separately by the teams and the riders.

I'd envision something like this for a "schedule"? Give riders off Dec for X-Mas and Mar to prep for DH season.

Sep - Las Vegas
Oct - Munich
Nov - Dubai
Jan - Hong Kong
Feb - Sydney

-ska todd

 

[Gobig]

First off GoBig, my typing makes it looks like I don't like a prokop, not the case. I respect his (and the like) talents-big time! not to mention Prokop and most of the 4x specialists are pretty good people. And getting the name out there is a point I hear a lot, but I have seen freecaster live 4X numbers vs DH and it pales.

Leave BMX talk out of it, this is mountain bikes son, big boy bikes. I have always said in a perfect world, BMX would be your preschool and then you graduate into mountain bike Downhill...there should be an age limit on BMX, 25 yrs old and you are OUT.

I will also add, the 4X ONLY riders are like the ghosts of the circuit. When I worked for freecaster in Austria last year, DH riders were everywhere to be found, talking the smack, interviews, gossip, hanging in the pits.....We could not find any 4X riders, they were all gone....maybe getting prepared for their HUGE event of 30 seconds.....

Man if you had to quit bmx at 25 no one would off won anything. Everyone peaking late 20s these days.... ha ha

Your right the 4x guys are pretty low key... Need to image it up a bit more maybe. Most 4x guys are Euro Low key dudes!
I think 4x numbers are down at least WCs, its just to expensive to travel round the World these days for 1 hours racing max. ( well i guess Boom Boom is still living the dream )
Like someone say 4x/ DS dies a bit during the winter making it hard to grow. Need more winter events off some kind to keep it rolling.
We love it all Stik . XC, DH, Super D, DS, 4x, MTX, BMX and of course the fans..
Ok im out, time for Wahoos then Iron Wok to check out the local roaches!

 

[SuspectDevice]

Before 4x became a sport for cherry picking NBL stars, we were all headed down the road of BSX, as EC mentioned earlier on.

Dyer, Noble and Rose were convinced back in '99 that BSX was the future of spectator-friendly gravity racing... I think it still is... Phil Saxena does the best he can with 4x tracks, as far as I can tell. But their is only one of him.... Glen Jacobs... We need you back man. We need Carter, Ebbet and Chase back in the track building game. We need a title sponsor (Remember the Vans BSX triple crown that never panned out?)

We need the sugar-water companies to help out here. We need TroyLee to pull out his checkbook again and fund some more BSX races... He has to be sick of supermoto by now...

It's not 4x in the "offseason" that needs to happen, per se, it is pulling 4x away from DH venues into venues and events of their own.

The British have a rather vibrant national 4x series (at least compared to the US).

I look at it like this; on an amateur level, people do not want to push up a hill and ride in front of a crowd (Gasp! be judged by your peers as to your ability!!) when they can sit on a lift, and ride un-seen and un-judged in the woods. At the elite level (nationals, worldcup), there are not large enough budgets or enough daylight to really make combined events happen any more... 4x needs the axe... BSX needs to come back. Dual slalom... well, kids, a rake and some sticks is the essence of DS. All of us who love it... Well, we need to DIY.

It's a matter of value and perception. 4x/bsx tracks at permanent venues that stand alone near population centers for weeknight and early season racing would bring racers... I'm of the opinion that these venues should have dual slalom tracks, as a stepping stone to burly freaking BSX. Mix these tracks in with Moto venues... You don't need much of a hill... But a bigger, wider, desolate swath of earth, full of loam, and sand and stumps is fine. 3" of super firm rear suspension is what the bikes have as that is what the course requires, when we bring the mountain back into BSX, more practical bikes will become the norm... bikes that are fun to ride (I know I love my 5+5" bikes with DHish geo more than anything)

I'm also of the opinion that racing DS with just flags on grass is infinitely more fun, and involves more talent and skill, and is more fun to watch than a poorly built dual or duel course.

For those of us who care about gated racing, and even have a financial stake in it, it is up to us to fix the sport. That means athletes and bike companies. Ultimately it means investing in some break away gates, getting a few cases of Redbull Cola dropped off in a field, and building a sweet grassy track with some great rhythm that anyone from a 10 intermediate BMX grom to a wc DH pro can enjoy going as fast as possible on.

Slalom, 4x, Dual, etc are all way more accessible to new riders than DH, can happen anywhere with a bit of gradient ( I once raced slalom in St Augustine Fl, at an airport... It was still rad, because it was dual slalom).


That's my disjointed thoughts... We build slalom tracks and race in our yards, and have a sweet time... And we lend our support, labor and dollars (when we can) towards trying to bring back OG 4x/BSX. The money is there if we just step back from traditonal race venues... And the racing would be better to boot.

 

[Inclag]

Why not integrate mountain biking into 4X??? Instead of having an entirely sloped BMX course, axe half of it, and insert wide woods sections, drops, roots, and rock gardens.

If not, don't race it at mountain bike events since it has evolved into something that is a different animal, and would probably be more successful being run independently.

I don't care how big and gnarly the berms and jumps on the course are. I'm sure there are loads of people who would agree, but as an amateur level downhiller, I have a hard time getting into something marketed as a "mountain bike discipline" that has a widely different (relative to mountain biking) required skillset. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the sport, but DS, 4X, whatever, is something that has been forced down downhiller's throats forever, and it ain't downhill. There is loads more crossover between XC and downhill as far as technical skill IMHO.

So I see it like this. Either accept that it's a specialists sport and do everything possible so that it can grow--> Seperate it from the other mountain bike disciplines, Off-season schedule was a good idea. Or the sport needs to appeal to the mass populace of downhiller/mountain biker which I think will only happen by changing the course layout and minimizing the BMX side of the sport.

 

[ZoRo]

Best thread on the 'Monkey for a while. Refreshing change from the "New Bike" & "Boxxer or Dorado" type of thread!

Keep the interesting comments coming in!

 

[MinorThreat]

Why not integrate mountain biking into 4X??? Instead of having an entirely sloped BMX course, axe half of it, and insert wide woods sections, drops, roots, and rock gardens.

THAT has been my vision, which I am yet going to make happen right here in the woods outside Spokane, WA. I think I even have the venue now - - gonna scope it out in the next month or so.

Go up on a sparsely-wooded hillside with lots of natural features, ribbon off a motocross-track-width course in the rough (like '60s-'70s European-style MX) and have heads-up, four or five on the track racing. No manufactured berms and maybe just a few dozered jumps. Make sure it's at least :45 long and let the day's racing determines the lines; nothing contrived - - off-camber sweepers, off-camber hairpins, plenty of passing room. Sort of a mountain bike DH-Cross; something you'd want suspension for but a guy on a 5&5 or 6&6 bike could have fun mixing it up on.

I broached the idea on the Pac NW board a year or more ago and was told I was insane - - basically told by all my fellow downhillers that they like just themselves and the clock the way it's always been done and the thought of mixing it up head-to-head was nuts. Is it?

 

[slyfink]

THAT has been my vision, which I am yet going to make happen right here in the woods outside Spokane, WA. I think I even have the venue now - - gonna scope it out in the next month or so.

Go up on a sparsely-wooded hillside with lots of natural features, ribbon off a motocross-track-width course in the rough (like '60s-'70s European-style MX) and have heads-up, four or five on the track racing. No manufactured berms and maybe just a few dozered jumps. Make sure it's at least :45 long and let the day's racing determines the lines; nothing contrived - - off-camber sweepers, off-camber hairpins, plenty of passing room. Sort of a mountain bike DH-Cross; something you'd want suspension for but a guy on a 5&5 or 6&6 bike could have fun mixing it up on.

I broached the idea on the Pac NW board a year or more ago and was told I was insane - - basically told by all my fellow downhillers that they like just themselves and the clock the way it's always been done and the thought of mixing it up head-to-head was nuts. Is it?

That kinda sounds like what happens when I'm trail riding with my buddies and we get to a long downhill section. The passes come out, the elbows sometimes make an appearance and it's pretty good fun. The only problem I'd see with it is that a trail might get entirely blown out if lines aren't established, and if its in the woods it might not be all that spectator friendly. But still, it's a worthy idea, and worth looking into... Let us know how it goes...

 

[stiksandstones]

Why not integrate mountain biking into 4X??? Instead of having an entirely sloped BMX course, axe half of it, and insert wide woods sections, drops, roots, and rock gardens.

YA
Like a 'rock box'! (hopefully those that follow HB comedy will get that).

And your format has been done before, it worked, was a success, was on TV, got good ratings, riders made lots of money...it was called DH mania on FOX Sports, just go find a sponsor to do them again (heli's, 8 cameras, etc...) and you are golden.

 

[Inclag]

YA
Like a 'rock box'! (hopefully those that follow HB comedy will get that).

And your format has been done before, it worked, was a success, was on TV, got good ratings, riders made lots of money...it was called DH mania on FOX Sports, just go find a sponsor to do them again (heli's, 8 cameras, etc...) and you are golden.

Not sure if mountain biking will come back to that nationally televised level of yonder. But with the advent of Freecaster and the intardwebz, there really is an opportunity for proper broadcasting.

I don't understand why there is this idea that mountain biking isn't TV friendly. There's more than enough technology out there to properly broadcast downhilling, and usually a massive crew of spectators on course. I also don't buy that the sport needs a gravity discipline that pitches people head to head in order to attract the common man. As far as I know, downhill skiing is the more popular of skiing disciplines (compared to slalom), yet I keep on hearing that 4X, slalom, etc. is the golden child that could potentially woo sponsors and progress the sport.

I think the reality is that these other head to head gravity disciplines are even more of a niche sector of biking, and the real issue is how to make them grow. Clearly if it is to be maintained as a BMX style of racing, it should be treated as such, and the courses should be up to snuff and their needs to be an infrastructure in place for novices to participate and practice at this. Lumping this type of riding with downhill just doesn't seem to work since it seems to need someone with a specific type of vision and the right tools to implement it.