[MinorThreat]

I don't understand why there is this idea that mountain biking isn't TV friendly. There's more than enough technology out there to properly broadcast downhilling, and usually a massive crew of spectators on course . . . As far as I know, downhill skiing is the more popular of skiing disciplines (compared to slalom), . . . .

I think it's a combination of factors. First of all, there are a LOT more downhill skiers, both as a percentage of the skiing population and in sheer volume, than there are downhill MTBers; so many more people can relate personally to downhill skiing. Add to that the fact that downhill skiing is an Olympic sport - - just think of how many sports most people would not pay much attention too except for the fact that they get televised every four years. Finally, part of that is the monster $ it would take to camera-up a MTB DH course as opposed to a skiing run. Because ski slopes are open, sight-lines are relatively long and give television spectators a much better perspective of the speed involved when they can have long pans. Compare that to the, maybe, 50 feet or so in the woods that a cameraman on a DH course can capture.

I also don't buy that the sport needs a gravity discipline that pitches people head to head in order to attract the common man.

I really think that IS the crux of it. We all understand it, can appreciate it and dig it; but to the layman spectator, racing is head-to-head competition. To them, one person on a course against nothing but the clock is just a time trial that should lead up to the "real" action.

 

[sbabuser]

THAT has been my vision, which I am yet going to make happen right here in the woods outside Spokane, WA. I think I even have the venue now - - gonna scope it out in the next month or so.

Sounds like fun to me. That, and UT's short travel dh lite races...

 

[BC VAN]

last year i worked for the Jeep King of the Mountain series, winter as a ops guys and summer as a course builder.....
even with todays technology it cost a lot to film those events and they were half the distance of downhill....i cant even tell you how many loads of cable i loaded and unloaded into snowcats...

we literally had to set up a 20 X 20 area completely with wooden sub floors on the snow and all of the equipment to shoot to TV quality.

as far as Dual Slalom VS 4x and outside industry support

last year i was in on a meeting that was to decide the format, Paul Mitchell marketing head was also as they spend a bunch of money with the series....

when Dual Slalom was brought up the response was...we did it 15 years ago, fans that tune into television like contact and head to head racing,

i think we have to step outside of our cycling bubble to see what appeals to others aside from us....

we are fans of cycling and its history and culture and understand the excitement of a good Dual Slalom race, but true fans of MTB racing is a very very small number to outside industry companies looking for exposure.

good thread though digging the ideas

Not sure if mountain biking will come back to that nationally televised level of yonder. But with the advent of Freecaster and the intardwebz, there really is an opportunity for proper broadcasting.

I don't understand why there is this idea that mountain biking isn't TV friendly. There's more than enough technology out there to properly broadcast downhilling, and usually a massive crew of spectators on course. I also don't buy that the sport needs a gravity discipline that pitches people head to head in order to attract the common man. As far as I know, downhill skiing is the more popular of skiing disciplines (compared to slalom), yet I keep on hearing that 4X, slalom, etc. is the golden child that could potentially woo sponsors and progress the sport.

I think the reality is that these other head to head gravity disciplines are even more of a niche sector of biking, and the real issue is how to make them grow. Clearly if it is to be maintained as a BMX style of racing, it should be treated as such, and the courses should be up to snuff and their needs to be an infrastructure in place for novices to participate and practice at this. Lumping this type of riding with downhill just doesn't seem to work since it seems to need someone with a specific type of vision and the right tools to implement it.

 

[MDJ]

last year i was in on a meeting that was to decide the format, Paul Mitchell marketing head was also as they spend a bunch of money with the series....

when Dual Slalom was brought up the response was...we did it 15 years ago, fans that tune into television like contact and head to head racing,

i think we have to step outside of our cycling bubble to see what appeals to others aside from us....

Let me turn this around just for arguments sake. So a marketing guy from a hair care company is telling us the fans of cycling (isn't that us?) want contact and head-to-head racing??

We are the fans that would tune into this, and most of us are saying we want to see DS racing because we think it is more exciting.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad they are supporting the sport and thank you for all of your work on this. However, I Tivo'd those races but after watching one, just deleted the rest.

I personally think our sport is better off just remaining on webcasts. It hasn't looked good on TV and I think will be better served on the web.

 

[MinorThreat]

Let me turn this around just for arguments sake. So a marketing guy from a hair care company is telling us the fans of cycling (isn't that us?) want contact and head-to-head racing??

I think you are missing the big picture here. A marketing person from a non-cycling-related product is not talking about cycling fans at all - - he is talking about a hoped-for television audience in the millions (that the sponsor is paying big dollars to try to reach) who don't understand (or care) that "cycling fans" think dual is "racing."

You know, I'm getting a bit of deja vu here in all these discussions, thinking back a few decades prior when supercross and stadium-cross were being bashed as "not real motocross" and more akin to a circus sideshow. But it's just that form of racing that got motocross into major metropolitan markets, in front of non-motorcycling spectators, blew the lid off dirt bike sales and put some kind of motocross bike under a kid on darned near any suburban block in America.

 

[stiksandstones]

I think I said back on the first page, that the UCI and the current sponsors of the world cup AND potential sponsors, love 4X, because of one thing=crashes.

Sex sells...
Crashes sell.

 

[MinorThreat]

^^ True that. People don't watch hockey for the fast precision skating or to witness the skill of working a puck. Other hockey players may go watch it for that. But the rest go to see a fight .

 

[Homey]

Does the sport need to grow (in the U.S) from the ground up or is it established?

I think the sport needs a "re-birth" in the U.S. There is no money to produce these "made for TV" events unless RedBull or Monster gets involved. They will not get involved if you can barely fill a Pro mens bracket and only (8) women show up to race the womens class. There has to be a spark (Like the Glen Helen 4x) and there has to be some follw-up events to make it seem as if the sport is strong enough to sustain itself. Potential sponsors need to be present and need to be aware of the potential of the sport.

Glen Helen is in the heart of SoCal where all of these sponsors are based. All of the heavy equipment (dozers) is in-place at the track, the fans are there, the cameras are there, and the potential sponsors are there. I know the fans would be much happier to watch a "Giant 4x" with DH bikes than a bunch of fat old guys on pitbikes trying to climb Mt. Saint Helen.

If you can't do that then DS needs to come back to NORBA. DS means low cost for the event and more entries for racing and a much higher ROI.

The idea for DS/4X/BX in the off-season in "urban" ares is the best idea I have heard so far.

 

[Inclag]

I think I said back on the first page, that the UCI and the current sponsors of the world cup AND potential sponsors, love 4X, because of one thing=crashes.

Sex sells...
Crashes sell.

Clearly. Isn't that rule #1, 2, and 3 of any head to head racing sport? Why do you think this video was plastered everywhere on TV. No one gives a damn about horse racing.

If contact sells, so be it, and I don't disagree in the least But who wants to participate in a sport that has no infrastructure for non-pro's? People would love watching BMX'esque 4X if it was built like that Beijing Olympic "Hell Track". But how is mountain biking ever going to reach that point if there are no 4X cross tracks for people to ride at year round? Look at the contrast between grass roots BMX and 4X/Slalom. It couldn't be any more different.

Serious question. How many 4X tracks exist in New England, or for that matter the Atlantic Coast???? I'd be surprised if there were more than 5 in New England. Now contrast that to how many there are for BMX.

I just don't see how 4X or slalom will ever get a fair shake if it is kept as the red headed stepchild to downhill unless it caters more to downhillers with courses that incorporate mountain biking/downhilling features. It's either that or 4X/Slalom should separate itself IMHO in order to succeed.

 

[stiksandstones]

Does the sport need to grow (in the U.S) from the ground up or is it established?

I think the sport needs a "re-birth" in the U.S. There is no money to produce these "made for TV" events unless RedBull or Monster gets involved. They will not get involved if you can barely fill a Pro mens bracket and only (8) women show up to race the womens class. There has to be a spark (Like the Glen Helen 4x) and there has to be some follw-up events to make it seem as if the sport is strong enough to sustain itself. Potential sponsors need to be present and need to be aware of the potential of the sport.

Glen Helen is in the heart of SoCal where all of these sponsors are based. All of the heavy equipment (dozers) is in-place at the track, the fans are there, the cameras are there, and the potential sponsors are there. I know the fans would be much happier to watch a "Giant 4x" with DH bikes than a bunch of fat old guys on pitbikes trying to climb Mt. Saint Helen.

If you can't do that then DS needs to come back to NORBA. DS means low cost for the event and more entries for racing and a much higher ROI.

The idea for DS/4X/BX in the off-season in "urban" ares is the best idea I have heard so far.

Great post.

You are aware of EC's mountain cross he did at Glen Helen right? It was a success, the drunk fans loved it I think, good battles, etc..

I 'think' MONSTER is plenty stoked on having one of the greatest riders this decade in Sam Hill vs paying a sh1tton of money for an entire series. Same with RedBull, they are happy having a few painted helmets than having an entire series-not to mention in redbulls case, they would want to make some odd obscure series anyways, not just sponsor something already existing.

Ya know the Supercross scene is at an interesting crossroads...it looks to be all crazy successful, but if MONSTER had not come in as the title sponsor this year, there probably would not have even been a series. The energy drinks alone, I feel are keeping the entire MX scene alive right now, if energy drinks pull out...they are F-ed.

As we know, its an awful time to be looking for a sponsor for some MTB events. But the right person, with the right presentation, with the right speaking qualifications could do anything OR MTBing might just need a whole lot of luck. My ex-boss Travis Chipres grabbed more outside industry dollars than anyone in the entire industry in the last 15 years and all due respect but he is the last person you would think to pull in some coin---I guess I mean anything is possible, or not???

 

[Inclag]

^^ True that. People don't watch hockey for the fast precision skating or to witness the skill of working a puck. Other hockey players may go watch it for that. But the rest go to see a fight .

Haha. I play hockey, and there are not many more things more beautiful than seeing Phil Kessel unload a wrist shot in full stride. Reminds me of vintage Joe Sakic. To the non-fan, what you said may be true. But there are probably on the magnitude of a million non-hockey players whom are fans of the game that appreciate the skill and speed of the sport.

 

[MDJ]

I think I said back on the first page, that the UCI and the current sponsors of the world cup AND potential sponsors, love 4X, because of one thing=crashes.

Sex sells...
Crashes sell.

First, I agree completely that crashes sell.

But... let's put this in perspective - how many people worldwide watch the Tour de France compared to 4x? Do they watch road racing for the crashes? No. Sure, it's cool to see a big pile up but people don't watch 6 hours of coverage in hopes of seeing someone's bloody ass hanging out of his lycra.

The UCI governs dozens of different cycling events that aren't based on crash potential. Surely, there can be another redeeming factor for 4x, right? And if I'm not mistaken, it not like there is a lot of money or sponsors in 4x.

Whether it's 4x or DS, this is not a mainstream sport. It will not become the next Supercross and played on prime time TV Saturday nights.

---------

On another note, I know of people who did their first DS at the Otter and had a blast. They will be back to race again next year. These are people who would never race a 4x. Personally I don't care if DS gets back to the WC level, but I do think it is the way to go for amatuers.

 

[MinorThreat]

Hey, maybe we could just make it all pump-track racing. But no contact. Separate tracks. Four-run format: clockwise; counter-clockwise; switch tracks; repeat.

 

[stiksandstones]

First, I agree completely that crashes sell.

But... let's put this in perspective - how many people worldwide watch the Tour de France compared to 4x? Do they watch road racing for the crashes? No. Sure, it's cool to see a big pile up but people don't watch 6 hours of coverage in hopes of seeing someone's bloody ass hanging out of his lycra.

The UCI governs dozens of different cycling events that aren't based on crash potential. Surely, there can be another redeeming factor for 4x, right? And if I'm not mistaken, it not like there is a lot of money or sponsors in 4x.

Whether it's 4x or DS, this is not a mainstream sport. It will not become the next Supercross and played on prime time TV Saturday nights.

---------

On another note, I know of people who did their first DS at the Otter and had a blast. They will be back to race again next year. These are people who would never race a 4x. Personally I don't care if DS gets back to the WC level, but I do think it is the way to go for amatuers.

just some random babble:

-Tour De France viewership, I will grant you that one, although I saw OLN's TDF ratings about 5 years ago and it was less than xgames...but that's the TOUR. How many people watch/follow fleche-wallone, or liege bastonge liege, or other road events?

-What highlights do you see on the 11oclock news during tour time?....crashes.

-supercross is not always live on saturday nights, they had 2 or 3 lived televised supercross races (on speed, not a network) and the rest of the season you can only listen to live audio (not free either) on the web....MTBing has LIVE coverage via www.freecaster.tv, so in that respect we are more ballin' than supercross (yes supercross is on the next day on speed and cbs, but you mentioned live).

 

[MDJ]

just some random babble:

-Tour De France viewership, I will grant you that one, although I saw OLN's TDF ratings about 5 years ago and it was less than xgames...but that's the TOUR. How many people watch/follow fleche-wallone, or liege bastonge liege, or other road events?

-What highlights do you see on the 11oclock news during tour time?....crashes.

-supercross is not always live on saturday nights, they had 2 or 3 lived televised supercross races (on speed, not a network) and the rest of the season you can only listen to live audio (not free either) on the web....MTBing has LIVE coverage via www.freecaster.tv, so in that respect we are more ballin' than supercross (yes supercross is on the next day on speed and cbs, but you mentioned live).

Yeah, not arguing with you - I mostly agree with you on this topic. My point was basically that the UCI should care more about the cycling aspect of the sport than the gore factor like they do the other disciplines. But I guess they don't see much on cycling aspect to support.

As far as road racing, Versus still runs the other classics and I would bet the viewership is in thousands of times more viewers in the US than the Paul Mitchell series was last year. Yes, the news only shows crashes but it's the fans that watch the full coverage, not the random person that sees a crash on the news.

I agree with your last point. Freecaster is great for the sport and I think I mentioned earlier that I think this is were our sport is best served rather than normal TV outlets.

 

[stiksandstones]

I am not inferring UCI goes around selling 'crashing' events to get sponsors...I hope that is not what I am portraying, they just won't get rid of it because there are sponsors involved that do not mind it and find the crashes exciting....according to what I heard from a UCI 'dude' and a person at a car company who is involved with sponsorship of UCI.

 

[Homey]

Great post.

You are aware of EC's mountain cross he did at Glen Helen right? It was a success, the drunk fans loved it I think, good battles, etc..

Totally aware of that. I think the idea needs to be re-hashed. It was a successful formula in the perfect location...EC and TLD need to do it again.

 

[stiksandstones]

Totally aware of that. I think the idea needs to be re-hashed. It was a successful formula in the perfect location...EC and TLD need to do it again.

Yes, would make a much better half time show than 'toyota sumo wrestlers' or the 'ktm kids race' or the 'ktm huckflipfmx jam'.

 

[luiz carlos]

I think this is a record...104 men and 24 women in Houffalize.


1 66 AUS19821216 GRAVES Jared YETI FOX SHOX FACTORY RACE TEAM 45.49 Q
2 77 SUI19810504 RINDERKNECHT Roger GT BICYCLES 45.51 Q
3 72 NED19780519 WICHMAN Joost 45.76 Q
4 67 GER19760514 TSCHUGG Guido GHOST A.T.G. PRO TEAM 45.98 Q
5 70 FRA19861010 SALADINI Romain TEAM SUNN 46.33 Q
6 71 GER19880304 FISCHBACH Johannes GHOST A.T.G. PRO TEAM 46.48 Q
7 78 FRA19800826 DELDYCKE Mickael 46.55 Q
8 80 CZE19810401 PROKOP Michal 46.55 Q
9 154 GBR19850226 ATHERTON Gee ANIMAL COMMENCAL 46.65 Q
10 87 FRA19850624 DERBIER Quentin 46.80 Q
11 76 NED19830330 MEIJER Jurg 46.92 Q
12 69 GBR19820125 ATHERTON Dan ANIMAL COMMENCAL 46.97 Q
13 68 FRA19780323 GRACIA Cédric 47.08 Q
14 73 CZE19850705 TATARKOVIC Kamil 47.18 Q
15 84 SVK19870522 VITKO Matej 47.27 Q
16 65 ESP19810301 ALVAREZ DE LARA LUCAS Rafael SPECIALIZED FACTORY RACING 47.34 Q
17 179 SUI19870716 GSPAN Dominik 47.46 Q
18 74 GBR19780602 BEAUMONT Scott ROCKY MOUNTAIN UK 47.50 Q
19 75 SVK19820410 POLC Filip MS EVIL RACING 47.52 Q
20 127 BEL19910814 MAGIS Johnny 47.52 Q
21 106 GBR19830202 FERRIS Duncan 47.53 Q
22 118 GER19830927 SEIDEL Nico GHOST A.T.G. PRO TEAM 47.53 Q
23 148 GER19900613 GÖHLER Aiko 47.65 Q
24 79 GBR19890907 LACEY Lewis CHAIN REACTION CYCLES/INTENSE 47.84 Q
25 100 SUI19840802 SEYDOUX Pascal 47.84 Q
26 115 FRA19800813 FAURY Matthieu 47.86 Q
27 96 GER19860316 GOTTSCHLICH Florian 47.87 Q
28 95 SUI19890908 GRAF David 47.94 Q
29 137 CZE19890120 STASEK Adam GHOST A.T.G. PRO TEAM 48.03 Q
30 182 GBR19910216 KERR Bernard 48.04 Q
31 175 GBR19900204 DOWIE Tom 48.10 Q
32 147 SWE19900720 AXELSSON David 48.19 Q
33 88 GER19850429 SCHÄFER Thomas SOLID ACLASS FACTORY TEAM 48.21 Q
34 146 FRA19850123 MORLAND Jeremy 48.23 Q
35 105 CZE19770324 KVACEK Radim 48.26 Q
36 113 SUI19820208 JAEGER Lukas 48.36 Q
37 92 SUI19831216 GERBER Sidney 48.39 Q
38 178 FRA19890403 LOCQUET Kevin 48.40 Q
39 101 SUI19880730 FREI Martin 48.44 Q
40 104 SVK19880617 PESKO Marek 48.46 Q
41 83 SUI19880303 SCHMID Reto 48.53 Q
42 108 GBR19910704 ROBERTS Scott 48.54 Q
43 117 CZE19860620 MUHLHANS Petr 48.60 Q
44 132 NED19880608 PRIJKEL Daniel 48.71 Q
45 82 NED19860215 VAN VEGHEL Joey 48.76 Q
46 102 SUI19820530 KIENER Adrian 48.76 Q
47 85 GBR19841006 EVANS William 48.81 Q
48 89 CZE19870217 MECHURA Lukas CHAIN REACTION CYCLES/INTENSE 48.81 Q
49 168 SVK19920518 ERSEK Jan 48.84 Q
50 169 CZE19821114 NOVAK Jan 48.84 Q
51 144 BEL19830209 LENSSENS Kristof 48.86 Q
52 109 FRA19830911 GADOIS Ludovic TEAM VARIO RACING 49.01 Q
53 90 AUS19700901 HUNTINGTON Randal 49.02 Q
54 123 CZE19920227 RIHA Jakub 49.15 Q
55 81 GBR19741123 LONGDEN Will 49.20 Q
56 103 GBR19890403 CAMPBELL-JENNER Patrick 49.21 Q
57 110 GER19861103 SCHERZ Stefan 49.21 Q
58 141 BEL19750809 GEORGES Laurent 49.38 Q
59 126 SLO19870807 KNEZ Ziga 49.44 Q
60 181 GBR19850112 GOULD Jordan 49.44 Q
61 160 GER19901217 GLADEN Dominik 49.76 Q
62 128 GER19880521 VÖLKER Jens 49.85 Q
63 122 SUI19790203 MUTHER Werner 49.88 Q
64 161 GER19700320 FUHRMANN Oliver 49.88 Q
65 163 CZE19910408 KIMMEL Erik 49.89
66 107 GER19861104 HANKO Adrian 49.90
67 111 SUI19881101 FURRER Pascal 50.14
68 139 SUI19910616 KISTNER Benjamin 50.18
69 156 GER19831019 FÜLLE Daniel 50.22
70 112 POL19891209 PARADOWSKI Piotr 50.29
71 180 SUI19900406 GSPAN Nicolas 50.44
72 125 CZE19841005 SIMECEK Robert 50.51
73 165 FRA19871115 GATEAU Vincent 50.51
74 91 POL19870827 BARAN Lukasz 50.58
75 98 POL19880327 KULESZA Robert 50.62
76 138 FRA19840403 RICCI Ghislain 50.66
77 155 SUI19910130 BUCK Martin 50.68
78 174 GER19920519 WRSTALA Maximilian 50.68
79 167 BEL19910613 DELHASSE Philippe 50.83
80 152 GER19830204 WÖLFL Georg 50.88
81 124 NED19910511 VAN LANKVELD Mark 51.04
82 129 BEL19800929 WUYTS Frederik 51.08
83 157 BEL19760120 THIRY Christophe 51.42
84 140 GER19830225 THALMANN Bela 51.66
85 177 GER19760807 DECKER Klaus 51.68
86 142 GER19890704 BRÜCKNER Petrik 51.74
87 134 SUI19880815 WEISS Mirco SCOTT 11 51.78
88 133 GER19900310 BÖRSCHIG Hannes 51.88
89 164 NED19920721 COMBEE Leo 51.89
90 131 GER19900314 HAHN Ole 52.06
91 171 GER19880410 WENDSCHUH Kai 52.58
92 172 GER19910104 KEWITSCH Michael 52.72
93 173 CZE19800131 MITKOV Bozan 53.38
94 153 GER19820608 KARWARTH Andy 53.92
95 86 CZE19880308 TEJCHMAN Premek 54.36
96 151 BEL19721123 GEERTS Guy 54.36
97 93 GBR19810310 WARDELL Dave 55.58
98 143 BEL19880428 MARÉCHAL Sébastien 56.66
99 136 BEL19661003 LECOCQ Christophe 56.95
100 119 GER19820120 CHRISTIAN Kai Steffen 58.22
101 135 GBR19920826 KNIGHT Tom 59.57
102 159 BEL19680715 HUYDTS Pierre 1:01.88
103 121 CZE19890428 PYTLIK Jakub 1:05.63
104 116 GBR19840113 NORTON James 1:11.30

Elite Women (just show up and you’re in w/ only 24 girls trying).

1 1 USA19811024 KINTNER Jill 49.48 Q
2 2 NED19820707 BEERTEN Anneke SUSPENSION CENTER 49.86 Q
3 3 CZE19890427 LABOUNKOVA Romana 51.01 Q
4 4 CZE19830904 HORAKOVA Jana 51.51 Q
5 5 USA19820125 BUHL Melissa 51.87 Q
6 6 FRA19860527 RAGOT Emmeline SUSPENSION CENTER 51.97 Q
7 7 AUT19801112 MOLCIK Anita 52.24 Q
8 8 SUI19810926 OETJEN Lucia 52.65 Q
9 9 ECU19840319 MARGGRAFF Diana 52.72 Q
10 10 RSA19791124 PETTERSON Joanna 52.99 Q
11 11 JPN19830401 SUEMASA Mio 53.08 Q
12 12 GBR19820827 GRIFFITHS Fionn NORCO WORLD TEAM 53.12 Q
13 13 SUI19820323 SEYDOUX Rachel 53.46 Q
14 14 AUS19830822 HUNTINGTON Sarsha 53.72 Q
15 15 CZE19861010 TOTHOVA Katarina 53.93 Q
16 16 AUT19850212 HOHENWARTER Angelika 53.98 Q
17 17 GER19850819 MARTH Steffi 54.57 Q
18 18 NED19830321 JONKER Marielle 54.78 Q
19 19 AUT19830811 FRUHWIRTH Helene Valerie 55.21 Q
20 20 SLO19900209 KNEZ Neza 55.70 Q
21 21 ESP19770825 CASTRO FERNANDEZ Eva 56.27 Q
22 22 CZE19890218 VOTAVOVA Tereza 58.75 Q
23 23 GER19661208 LEHMANN Elfriede 1:01.28 Q
24 24 GER19840907 TELTSCHER Stephanie 1:01.42 Q

 

[ZoRo]

Why don't the UCI listen a bit to their top riders??

From Graves Blog (he's talking about the SA World Cup 4x track) :

"For 4x the track was long, definately too long, but a step in the right direction as far as course design goes, it was fairly technical, and rough in sections, with mostly flat turns, but once again lacked any sections that would allow for clean passing opportunites, and due to the length the racing got really spread out by the finish. With the layout of the track maybe a couple tight corners follwed by a long straight with alternating big jumps and rocky sections might have worked well, also, once again, the first straight was too short, and things got a bit hairy at tims in the first turn, which we really need to get away from, people dont want to see 2 riders rolling down the track because the other 2 hit the deck in the 1st corner. "

 

[stiksandstones]

Why don't the UCI listen a bit to their top riders??

From Graves Blog (he's talking about the SA World Cup 4x track) :

"For 4x the track was long, definately too long, but a step in the right direction as far as course design goes, it was fairly technical, and rough in sections, with mostly flat turns, but once again lacked any sections that would allow for clean passing opportunites, and due to the length the racing got really spread out by the finish. With the layout of the track maybe a couple tight corners follwed by a long straight with alternating big jumps and rocky sections might have worked well, also, once again, the first straight was too short, and things got a bit hairy at tims in the first turn, which we really need to get away from, people dont want to see 2 riders rolling down the track because the other 2 hit the deck in the 1st corner. "

thanks for that, I totally forgot Graves had himself a blog.

 

[luiz carlos]

In my opinion it's time to Phil go...4X needs another ideas...Why not EC??Lopes??

 

[stiksandstones]

In my opinion it's time to Phil go...4X needs another ideas...Why not EC??Lopes??

It's not fun getting yelled at by the riders for $1000 a weekend of pay.

 

[ZoRo]

There is a good vid up on Freecaster showcasing the 4x track in Houffalize: http://freecaster.tv/live/1000006/1007132/nissan-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-houffalize-4x

Looks fun for us mortals, but it's definitely not World Cup level... although I'm sure it will make out for some good racing.

Once again, I know that BMX has a huge organisational and institutional advantage over gravity MTB, but can someone explain to me why they have tracks with HUGE doubles (read: that most people won't even attempt in a lifetime of mtbing) & perfect rythm sections while racing with some 20inch bike??? I mean don't you tell me the 4x pros would not be able to clear those kind of jumps with a 26inch bike with front or dual suspension (granted that the course is on a slight decline, not flat like a typical BMX course)?

Anybody remember the UCI DH BMX events? I think they had one at Woodward or something (I just remember the jumps being gigantic). I remember Lopes being quoted after he rode the track with his MTB saying it was perfect for a MTB style 4x race.

From one of the Earthed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0FCDUGDAF3U&hl=fr&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0FCDUGDAF3U&hl=fr&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[stiksandstones]

but can someone explain to me why they have tracks with HUGE doubles (read: that most people won't even attempt in a lifetime of mtbing) & perfect rythm sections while racing with some 20inch bike???

Because the track remains there, for a long time, if not 'forever'. MTB/4X tracks get built a few weeks before an event, torn down when its over.

 

[BC VAN]

im not sure if you read the whole post i put up?

my point was we have to stop thinking inside of our little bubble, the bicycle industry is giant, but the portion that make up true race fans is minimal.

a company like Paul Mitchell is more concerned with Millions of households then the pale number of Dual Slalom specific fans that would tune in....the Jeep time slot was usually directly after NFL games, mostly male's that have probably had a couple of beers during the game, haven't changed the channel and are milling around the house picking off the pretzel bowl....what do you think is going to appeal more to them..head to head action with riders banging or some guy trying to explain why he lost his heat but still won?

i think the craziest thing you mention is you tivod the Jeep races, watched the first one and deleted the rest....they were dual slalom format this year!

so what your saying is even the "fans of cycling" don't watch the dual slalom on TV.

honestly at this point of my career it doesn't have any effect on what i do....and i really do love both formats for different reasons, they are different types of racing with total different strategies, which is why i love both.

one more case in point, the Sea otter classic ( biggest bike festival of the year, 10,000 entries, yada yada) has what is regarded as the best Slalom of the year...definitely a classic, if you took all of the fans that were trackside this year (and this is the most i have seen in 4 or 5 years) charged them $10, you would struggle to pay the crews to set up and tear down the equipment as well as the editing and commentary crew.

Let me turn this around just for arguments sake. So a marketing guy from a hair care company is telling us the fans of cycling (isn't that us?) want contact and head-to-head racing??

We are the fans that would tune into this, and most of us are saying we want to see DS racing because we think it is more exciting.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad they are supporting the sport and thank you for all of your work on this. However, I Tivo'd those races but after watching one, just deleted the rest.

I personally think our sport is better off just remaining on webcasts. It hasn't looked good on TV and I think will be better served on the web.

 

[ska todd]

Here's a line from cyclingnews.com regarding the Hou-givesacrap-fallize 4X that just begs to be added to this thread:

One rider that was impacted by the crashes was men's UCI World Champion Rafael Alvarez de Lara Lucas (Specialized), who was run into from behind coming out of the first corner by someone trying to cut the corner. His day was over after his front wheel resembled a pretzel following the crash.

-ska todd

 

[slyfink]

Here's a line from cyclingnews.com regarding the Hou-givesacrap-fallize 4X that just begs to be added to this thread:

-ska todd

Yeah but...:

"The wide open turns meant that the term 'hole shot' meant less than usual. "You could see by the number of crashes that guys were taking chances," said Graves. "There was no one line, which made it very hard to protect a lead, and a fast start wasn't that meaningful."


I watched the highlights, and it was more exciting than PMB...

Oh, and good show for your rider in the downhill...

 

[yellowrake]

OK, End to all arguments!
We, Racer's Edge, Inc. and Wisp Resort, will be hosting the best Dual format race in the country to date, The Capital Cup. June 6, 2009, GES #2 and #1 of the E-13 dual Series.
We encourage others to take note - this is the way it's done. From format, to track building, to announcing, we have it dialed.
The track was completed this past week, aside from some fine tuning, and is friendly for the amature to the pro, from BMX'er to Downhiller, and from mountain boarder to Segway rider ( No joke, there's a local dude who rides the track every day on his Segway - The Resort even bought a fleet so they can host tours)
We are currently expanding the track to include some free-ride features, including a wall ride and several cross course jumps.
We guarentee to provide the best racing, plenty of passing lines with-out dirty racing, and the most fun you can have on two wheels.

 

[FarkinRyan]

DHBMX stuff

I'd just like to add that, as he is both the man AND made entirely of an iron and meat alloy, Brian Foster 3-tabled the big double on that track one year. Absolutely nothing to do with dual but easily 10-times cooler than a whole season of WC dual racing.

 

[buckoW]

How come contact and crashes are accepted in Velodrome racing?

 

[ZoRo]

Because the track remains there, for a long time, if not 'forever'. MTB/4X tracks get built a few weeks before an event, torn down when its over.

Good point,

Bromont built a permanent 4x track last year for the WC. Should be OK after this winter, but then again, it got buried in snow all winter long sooo... Anyway, the point is it got them another WC this year and 4x Canada Cup (the only one they have on the calendar in Canada... so it's pretty weird).

Maybe if they did not tear the tracks down after the races are over, more people would pick up the sport and try to race it. I know there is some liability issues involved in that type of track, but big doubles can always become tables, etc..

 

[yellowrake]

Good point,

Bromont built a permanent 4x track last year for the WC. Should be OK after this winter, but then again, it got buried in snow all winter long sooo... Anyway, the point is it got them another WC this year and 4x Canada Cup (the only one they have on the calendar in Canada... so it's pretty weird).

Maybe if they did not tear the tracks down after the races are over, more people would pick up the sport and try to race it. I know there is some liability issues involved in that type of track, but big doubles can always become tables, etc..

werd
thats what we're doing at Wisp. We stock-pile the dirt in tha fall, just knocking down the peaks, and use as transitions for winter features, and then we sculpt again in the spring. Track is looking sick for this year!

 

[ZoRo]

Your track sounds really nice. You should post pics of it or some vid of somebody roosting it.

 

[yellowrake]

will post plenty of pics after the Capital Cup....Stay tuned to racersedgeonline.com