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maestro? Giants new line?

oly

oly

skin cooker for the hive
Dec 6, 2001
5,118
6
Witness relocation housing
new MBA (nov 2004) has a full page add by MAESTRO.... with a frame showing parts missing. you connect the dots to see the suspension plates. They also have a website where you can do it yourself. www.suspensionmadeharmonious.com .

Looking in the magazine its pretty clear theres no GIANT add in this issue, and upon some other looking on other websites (a birty told me where to look).... i found this from eurobike..... (linked from Dropmachine)

http://www.dropmachine.com/media/data/514/2P9130209.jpg
http://www.dropmachine.com/media/data/514/2P9130208.jpg


I also wonder how these designs differ from the DW bikes? They look to be pretty similar.....but im no expert..... anyone care to guess??
 
oly

oly

skin cooker for the hive
Dec 6, 2001
5,118
6
Witness relocation housing
VV.... i think your still only remembering the early protos of DW's new system. From the photos ive seen from the pinkbike previews and other tidbits posted here and there it seems like the Maestro is pretty damn similar..... Have you connected the dots on the new website?? The last one i would say is the FR rig. Is this a case of a 1000 pound gorilla looking over your shoulder in math class??? I get the feeling there may not be much talk of it here....... if there is some sort of standing conflict.....
 
Incubus

Incubus

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
562
0
Boston, MA
ViolentVolante said:
its quite different, the DW bikes have the bottom shock pivot on part of the lower linkage arm instead of on the frame. too bad no pics of the FR rig
Click to expand...
As DW already illuded to, that's only true about the Sunday frame.
 
binary visions

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,102
1,153
NC
oly said:
VV.... i think your still only remembering the early protos of DW's new system. From the photos ive seen from the pinkbike previews and other tidbits posted here and there it seems like the Maestro is pretty damn similar..... Have you connected the dots on the new website?? The last one i would say is the FR rig. Is this a case of a 1000 pound gorilla looking over your shoulder in math class??? I get the feeling there may not be much talk of it here....... if there is some sort of standing conflict.....
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There's about a trillion different arrangements that could be made using two linkage plates like that... VPP, Karpiel, DW, Canfield, all use a similar setup.

Giant isn't going to try to seriously infringe on someone else's patent - they're way too large a company for that. It wouldn't be a matter of a few frames sold and let's hope they don't notice this patent infringement.. Any patent they infringed on would get noticed instantly and they'd get their pants sued off.
 
Incubus

Incubus

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
562
0
Boston, MA
I can already see the debates... Much like anytime someone post a pic of their Nicolai hardtail, some undoubtedly will post: 'Nice Evil'. We get to see it all over again!
 
binary visions

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,102
1,153
NC
dante said:
FSR??
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Giant originally wasn't going to sell the NRS in the U.S.

When they decided to bring it to the market, they had to pay Specialized, of course. But originally it was a product that was going to be sold in Europe.

edit: I say this like I'm an authority on the subject. In reality, it's just what I've heard from several seperate sources, none of whom tend to spread unfounded rumors.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
if my host didn't suck so ****ing much, i woudl gladly give you guys the links to the pages with the new Giants on them, including a close up of the linkages. However, i am a bit stuck withthem for the moment, so thats that.

I asked them if it was similar to the DW link, and they replied, and i kid you not, "we aren't familiar with this design"

:/
 
binary visions

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,102
1,153
NC
GiantDHRider said:
Thats exactly why Giant would copy the design...they're a large company and have plenty of lawyers to argue any potential lawsuits in court
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Yep, and that makes great business sense.

Instead of using an un-patented design and selling thousands and thousands of bikes (which they would do, regardless of the type of suspension used - they put together a good bike, with a good parts spec, for a great price), they should use a patented one, thereby completely negating their improved sales with the fees that they're giving to lawyers, and the bad publicity they're generating for themselves...
 
Incubus

Incubus

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
562
0
Boston, MA
When DW spoke of the Yakuza single-pivot bikes he said something to the effect of it being as different from a bullit as a single pivot bike could get. Despite the fact that at first glance it looks like a bullit (or many other single pivot bikes for that matter).

That said, isn't it possible that though they appear similar, they're quite different? BV already pointed out that the IH bikes aren't the first to use two linkage plates and a unified rear triangle.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned giant 'ripping off' specialized with that extruded shock mount on the down tube.
 
Acadian

Acadian

Born Again Newbie
Sep 5, 2001
714
2
Blah Blah and Blah
dropmachine.com said:
I asked them if it was similar to the DW link, and they replied, and i kid you not, "we aren't familiar with this design"

:/
Click to expand...
like finding a kid standing in front of an empty cookie jar with his fingers and face full or chocolate and hearing him say "I didn't eat them!" :rolleyes:
 
dante

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Incubus said:
When DW spoke of the Yakuza single-pivot bikes he said something to the effect of it being as different from a bullit as a single pivot bike could get. Despite the fact that at first glance it looks like a bullit (or many other single pivot bikes for that matter).

That said, isn't it possible that though they appear similar, they're quite different? BV already pointed out that the IH bikes aren't the first to use two linkage plates and a unified rear triangle.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned giant 'ripping off' specialized with that extruded shock mount on the down tube.
Click to expand...
Yakuza Kumicho. Pivot location off by almost a foot. :thumb:
 
oly

oly

skin cooker for the hive
Dec 6, 2001
5,118
6
Witness relocation housing
davod said:
Well, DW didn't actually say that they were different, so they might be similar...
I might have actually been right!(I won't count on it)
read my original post here
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Ah, im always a day late and a dollar short. i Did a little search on maestro, but shoulda also searched giant since that was my hunch.

Oh well, back to my drawings.... im Trying to undestand some of the basic differences in suspension and axle path...i said basic.... just rotating some mock ups of the current offerings as i can see from pictures and such.....from all the stuff i read, i'd like a visual that ive created, not some marketing guy working in the art room.

So far ive drawn a FSR, DW(ish), and also the new V-10 based off BMXmans gread side view pic of his frame. The v10 confuses me because i thought it was supposed to make an S curve, but it didnt under what i'd consider normal movement(after rotating the links the way they would move from the shocks fully extended position). I did however get the S curve to develop if i hyperextended the links to make the rear go the other way...like i undid the shock and picked up on the seat. Now maybe i made a mistake in my assumptions, but from what i can see it just makes a modified curve.

Oh yea, and in 6 hrs ill be getting up to goto whistler!!!!
 
D

davod

Chimp
Jun 13, 2004
32
0
oly said:
Ah, im always a day late and a dollar short. i Did a little search on maestro, but shoulda also searched giant since that was my hunch.

Oh well, back to my drawings.... im Trying to undestand some of the basic differences in suspension and axle path...i said basic.... just rotating some mock ups of the current offerings as i can see from pictures and such.....from all the stuff i read, i'd like a visual that ive created, not some marketing guy working in the art room.

So far ive drawn a FSR, DW(ish), and also the new V-10 based off BMXmans gread side view pic of his frame. The v10 confuses me because i thought it was supposed to make an S curve, but it didnt under what i'd consider normal movement(after rotating the links the way they would move from the shocks fully extended position). I did however get the S curve to develop if i hyperextended the links to make the rear go the other way...like i undid the shock and picked up on the seat. Now maybe i made a mistake in my assumptions, but from what i can see it just makes a modified curve.

Oh yea, and in 6 hrs ill be getting up to goto whistler!!!!
Click to expand...
Just an aside, from what I understand, axle path doesn't matter *that much*. While a squiggle shaped path might have some odd tendencies, the only difference between most axlepaths is chain feedback (through the pedals). Anti-squat (unbobbiness) is determined by pivot or IC location, and where the chain is (hence the funny chainring systems on BMW's, among other bikes) and braking is something like that as well. So, theoretically, two identical axle paths could cause a bike to pedal radically differently, and vise versa (identical pedalling performance from different axle paths).

Don't take my word for it though.

Now, that was a completely useless piece of information :D
 
binary visions

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,102
1,153
NC
davod said:
Just an aside, from what I understand, axle path doesn't matter *that much*. While a squiggle shaped path might have some odd tendencies, the only difference between most axlepaths is chain feedback (through the pedals). Anti-squat (unbobbiness) is determined by pivot or IC location, and where the chain is (hence the funny chainring systems on BMW's, among other bikes) and braking is something like that as well. So, theoretically, two identical axle paths could cause a bike to pedal radically differently, and vise versa (identical pedalling performance from different axle paths).

Don't take my word for it though.

Now, that was a completely useless piece of information :D
Click to expand...
No, that's definitly not a useless piece of information... It's something that most people don't even think about, and DW has mentioned it a couple times in his discussions (not, specifically, how anti-squat is generated or anything, just the basic premise of the axle path not being the only thing that determines suspension performance).

oly, if you look back in the archives or do a search, it was determined (by people smarter than myself) that the V10 linkage in fact does not use the true S-curve from the VPP patents. If I remember correctly, someone said that the Blur, in fact, gets the real deal. Whatever, VPP or not the V10 is still one of the most popular bikes on the DH racing scene, so they clearly did something right.
 
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