My name is mark and I run the restoration project in the Duwamish Greenbelt for The Nature Consortium. The marginal mountain bike runs directly through a 4 year old restoration project. Weedwackers are undoing 4 years of work in 4 minutes. I have spoken with one active bike group and have asked for a moratorium on building any new trails in the Greenbelt until we can sit at a table and come to an agreement. That group informed me that there were others active in the Greenbelt as well. The Nature consortium supports multiple use of the Greenbelt. If you or anyone you know is working on this project please cease building new trails and contact me immediately at buphalo@naturec.org. We would like to work together for everyone's benefit. Also, the use of chainsaw and weedwackers is illegal in the Greenbelt - we can't even use them for restoration work without approval from the city.
Marginal Trail
- Thread starter buphalo
- Start date
top....
I was simply posting to bump the thread back up to the "top" of the bullitan board. Saying top just meant....that....cm16white said:
Seems like it's important info, the thread on tne marginal dh is many pages long, and her comes along a non-rider that has some very important things to say about it. I just think they should all see it.
I just hope the Consortium group realizes there is more than one group building in that area. Apparently some others are building stuff in the same area from what I was told. Keep in mind not everyone reads these boards and the deeds of others are not representative of all.
It is important that we play ball with these folks. They are good people and have been helpful to us already so come on guys and step up. I don't know who is building outside our group but we need to find out and put the brakes on and set up the ground rules.
I was told there is a bike shop on California Ave(?) or nearby. Maybe they have the low-down on the others.
From what i understand, Marks concerns are with the construction of NEW trails. They don't want us just making our own path or clearing areas for new trails because they have certain areas they have restored. I will be out on the trail tomorrow afternoon if anyone wants to come out and ride or help out with the current trail.
It is true that my main concern is that new trail building stops until an agreement can be reached.
It is false that the city is on board with this project despite an approval of a weak trail 3 years ago.
I completely understand that there are many groups active in the greenbelt.
It is my goal to get as many of these groups into this conversation and i could use your help in rounding these folks up, especially if you are concerned that they may reflect up your activity.
I am personally interested in seeing the mountain bike trail flourish. it just has to be in an environmentally conscious manner.
It is false that the city is on board with this project despite an approval of a weak trail 3 years ago.
I completely understand that there are many groups active in the greenbelt.
It is my goal to get as many of these groups into this conversation and i could use your help in rounding these folks up, especially if you are concerned that they may reflect up your activity.
I am personally interested in seeing the mountain bike trail flourish. it just has to be in an environmentally conscious manner.
How does the trail negatively impact the restoration project?
mark, i will be out there again saturday morning if you would like to meet then. But until then, this forum could be used as a great medium for us to communicate with each other. And this way, everyone will be on the same page.
I guess i'll start this off and see where it goes. I see your two concerns of our trail expressed as this:
1. That no new trails be built
2. That the trails which are built be built in an environmentally conscious manner
We're already on board with you about the whole no new trails part. Where i would like a bit more input on is how our current trail is not built in an environmentally conscious manner? And if it is not, what can we do to get it up to your standards. Please be specific about what part of the trail you are refering to and feel free to use photos that we have already posted as a guide to what parts of the trail you are refering to. especially the parts where you claim 4 years of your work were undone in 4 minutes, i'm quite curious about this.
If there are any concerns you may have that you have not expressed, feel free to post them. This way everyone in the forum has a chance to respond.
I guess i'll start this off and see where it goes. I see your two concerns of our trail expressed as this:
1. That no new trails be built
2. That the trails which are built be built in an environmentally conscious manner
We're already on board with you about the whole no new trails part. Where i would like a bit more input on is how our current trail is not built in an environmentally conscious manner? And if it is not, what can we do to get it up to your standards. Please be specific about what part of the trail you are refering to and feel free to use photos that we have already posted as a guide to what parts of the trail you are refering to. especially the parts where you claim 4 years of your work were undone in 4 minutes, i'm quite curious about this.
If there are any concerns you may have that you have not expressed, feel free to post them. This way everyone in the forum has a chance to respond.
The Nature Constortium is aware of the fact that mountain bikers are now active on the trails and has ceased planting trees within 3' of the trail (actually ceased all planting till fall). however, some trees were planted near the trail during times when it was unused (during winter).
so one issue is that trail building and riding activity takes place during the summer and our planting takes place during winter, so it's not always obvious where bikers and restoration workers are doing their thing. i think this can be solved by getting on the same page as far as where each of the groups is working. also i can assure you that noboby planted in or near the trail with the knowledge that it was being used for this purpose...our work parties are volunteer based.
Erosion is a major issue: I realize the steep hills are the fun ones, but some of the trails are really accellerating the rates of erosion. there are a couple of landings for jumps that are wide swaths of steep grade that has been completely stripped of vegetation to serve your needs.
Wetlands: One of the trails goes through one of the few wetlands in that area. it is a pretty intact wetland with many key species (its the trail the curves through an area of skunk cabbage. The trail is already there and it looks like you have some drainage beneath it, but you will need to keep maintaining that drainage and cease any additional construction or alteration in and near that and other wetlands. We should meet specifically about wetlands sometime.
Holes: they are being dug to make jumps. they are destructive, dangerous, and unattractive. we need a better method for this activity.
Native plant destruction: much of the work i've seen out there involves some type of clearing and usually it has incuded many native plants. whether or not The Nature Consortium planted them or not, that action is undoing our progress. perhaps we could work on a transplant program or something in the fall.
Weedwacking: I don't know who is doing it, but it's happening. i can't use one to remove blackberry for restoration purposes without a permit from the city.
trash has been an issue as well. i am well aware that the restoration project is responsible for some of this as well (the bottoms of the watering cartons are biodegradable but still look bad and the pots for the trees should have been picked up a month ago) I have just recently come into this position and am getting my bearings, but a tenative track pick up is scheduled for monday the 10th. however, gatorade bottles, snack bar wrappers, a biking shirt and other litter has been found along the mountain biking trail.
ok, so that's a start of a conversation. please make sure as many folk as possible read this. Also know that i am psyched about the trail on a personal level. On a professional level, The Nature Consortium would really like to work with you. You guys are incredibly industrious. I would like to arrange mountain-biker specific work parties where we can focus around the trail. I'll do it at your convenience. it would demonstrate your willingness to collaborate and enable me to put resources toward your trail.
Is there a way to get all of the trail builders into one group?
I'm open for suggestions.
so one issue is that trail building and riding activity takes place during the summer and our planting takes place during winter, so it's not always obvious where bikers and restoration workers are doing their thing. i think this can be solved by getting on the same page as far as where each of the groups is working. also i can assure you that noboby planted in or near the trail with the knowledge that it was being used for this purpose...our work parties are volunteer based.
Erosion is a major issue: I realize the steep hills are the fun ones, but some of the trails are really accellerating the rates of erosion. there are a couple of landings for jumps that are wide swaths of steep grade that has been completely stripped of vegetation to serve your needs.
Wetlands: One of the trails goes through one of the few wetlands in that area. it is a pretty intact wetland with many key species (its the trail the curves through an area of skunk cabbage. The trail is already there and it looks like you have some drainage beneath it, but you will need to keep maintaining that drainage and cease any additional construction or alteration in and near that and other wetlands. We should meet specifically about wetlands sometime.
Holes: they are being dug to make jumps. they are destructive, dangerous, and unattractive. we need a better method for this activity.
Native plant destruction: much of the work i've seen out there involves some type of clearing and usually it has incuded many native plants. whether or not The Nature Consortium planted them or not, that action is undoing our progress. perhaps we could work on a transplant program or something in the fall.
Weedwacking: I don't know who is doing it, but it's happening. i can't use one to remove blackberry for restoration purposes without a permit from the city.
trash has been an issue as well. i am well aware that the restoration project is responsible for some of this as well (the bottoms of the watering cartons are biodegradable but still look bad and the pots for the trees should have been picked up a month ago) I have just recently come into this position and am getting my bearings, but a tenative track pick up is scheduled for monday the 10th. however, gatorade bottles, snack bar wrappers, a biking shirt and other litter has been found along the mountain biking trail.
ok, so that's a start of a conversation. please make sure as many folk as possible read this. Also know that i am psyched about the trail on a personal level. On a professional level, The Nature Consortium would really like to work with you. You guys are incredibly industrious. I would like to arrange mountain-biker specific work parties where we can focus around the trail. I'll do it at your convenience. it would demonstrate your willingness to collaborate and enable me to put resources toward your trail.
Is there a way to get all of the trail builders into one group?
I'm open for suggestions.
I am away for the weekend but I am going to PM a few people that may be doing something up there somewhere. I'll get back to you on this, Mark.
I think it's cool that you are willing to collaborate with us.
I know from experience that most groups feel entitled to kick out bikers at the slightest prompting.
I know from experience that most groups feel entitled to kick out bikers at the slightest prompting.
Unfortunately I have to leave town on the 21st. I will try to get some of my friends to attend. Come on people, let's help out. Only a few hours on a Saturday.
From the BBTC list serve.
Do you remember Southwoods? Read about what the Northwest Crew has done since
then.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=41658
Urban Sparks has worked with Seattle Parks for the whole three years since
Southwoods was mowed down in Shoreline. The work has paid off. They graciously
accepted our invitation to see what's going on on Queen Anne. They were stunned
and they committed to put BMX in parks.
If you'd like to support BMX as time goes on, please send:
your full name
your mailing address
your email address
a phone number in case we need to call you out to a rally
We are building a large constituency to show Parks that voters want Bicycle
Skills Parks. A note of support would be good if you'd like to write one.
BMX is important in its own right, but Urban Sparks has also been making the
case that Bicycle Skills parks of all types should be in Seattle parks. We've
even made the pitch one-on-one with Mayor Nickels. Bicycle Skills Parks
include: trials parks, BMX parks, and MTB parks. The pitch is that we can
effectively use any size piece of land to bring a healthy sport to the
neighborhoods of Seattle. Though we're presently focusing in Seattle with our
limited resources, we have open dialogues with King County as well. When King
County Executive Ron Sims picked up his Seattle to Portland ride packet, I
encouraged him to read page 12 of the current Stranger.
If you value this new development, please send a donation to Urban Sparks and
support the mission whenever you can. The work to get Bicycle Skills Parks
takes time and delicate negotiation. But letters like this make it all
worthwhile:
http://www.urbansparks.org/Images/I-5 Shiosaki to Tomkinson Letter 071\
403.pdf
http://www.urbansparks.org/Images/Heidi Wills I-5 letter 12-20-02.pdf
Let's get additional Bicycle Skills Parks!
Ride on,
Jack Tomkinson
Urban Sparks 992-2779
www.urbansparks.org
4229 Baker Ave. NW
Seattle, WA 98107
Do you remember Southwoods? Read about what the Northwest Crew has done since
then.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=41658
Urban Sparks has worked with Seattle Parks for the whole three years since
Southwoods was mowed down in Shoreline. The work has paid off. They graciously
accepted our invitation to see what's going on on Queen Anne. They were stunned
and they committed to put BMX in parks.
If you'd like to support BMX as time goes on, please send:
your full name
your mailing address
your email address
a phone number in case we need to call you out to a rally
We are building a large constituency to show Parks that voters want Bicycle
Skills Parks. A note of support would be good if you'd like to write one.
BMX is important in its own right, but Urban Sparks has also been making the
case that Bicycle Skills parks of all types should be in Seattle parks. We've
even made the pitch one-on-one with Mayor Nickels. Bicycle Skills Parks
include: trials parks, BMX parks, and MTB parks. The pitch is that we can
effectively use any size piece of land to bring a healthy sport to the
neighborhoods of Seattle. Though we're presently focusing in Seattle with our
limited resources, we have open dialogues with King County as well. When King
County Executive Ron Sims picked up his Seattle to Portland ride packet, I
encouraged him to read page 12 of the current Stranger.
If you value this new development, please send a donation to Urban Sparks and
support the mission whenever you can. The work to get Bicycle Skills Parks
takes time and delicate negotiation. But letters like this make it all
worthwhile:
http://www.urbansparks.org/Images/I-5 Shiosaki to Tomkinson Letter 071\
403.pdf
http://www.urbansparks.org/Images/Heidi Wills I-5 letter 12-20-02.pdf
Let's get additional Bicycle Skills Parks!
Ride on,
Jack Tomkinson
Urban Sparks 992-2779
www.urbansparks.org
4229 Baker Ave. NW
Seattle, WA 98107
I have this feeling that all who were planning on attending will be away or unable to make it on the 22nd. Not going to be a good impression of the biking community.
Perhaps we should schedule a different date/time with Mark to ensure maximum turnout from the biking community? I would hate to see a small->no turnout reflect badly on all the hardwork that has been put into that area.
Perhaps we should schedule a different date/time with Mark to ensure maximum turnout from the biking community? I would hate to see a small->no turnout reflect badly on all the hardwork that has been put into that area.
I'm planning on taking that day off from work to show up... I just need more details about when and where to meet w/the tree peep's...seand said:
if it gets rescheduled I can do the next Sunday after this weekend or show up late 3 or 4pmish Sat 29th...
~Mike Cheney
I've not been to marginal yet but it really does sound like these guys want to compromise. Other people that had an issue would immediatly want to kick all of the bikers out for good
like what ioscope said
like what ioscope said
mike -
22nd, 10am-2pm. The focus will be solely on the mtb aspect of the greenbelt - dennis' trail. Where? Park in the highland parking lot (off of marginal way).
I am meeting with Mark tomorrow at some point to do a walk around the woods and get some perspective on other areas of interest. If everything shapes up as the nature con people think it will, we should have a place that is quite active for quite a few different groups. That right there will be both impressive and precedental (is that a real word?).
22nd, 10am-2pm. The focus will be solely on the mtb aspect of the greenbelt - dennis' trail. Where? Park in the highland parking lot (off of marginal way).
I am meeting with Mark tomorrow at some point to do a walk around the woods and get some perspective on other areas of interest. If everything shapes up as the nature con people think it will, we should have a place that is quite active for quite a few different groups. That right there will be both impressive and precedental (is that a real word?).
I've rode the trail w/Casey and Forcaster(Denis)... Denis and Casey have explained what's up @ Marginal...
I want to show up because I think establishing a good repore will really help us come out of being 'cladestine', 'underground' dare I say 'outlaw' around here and eventually, someday we'll have the sort of thing going for us like the N Shore...
but I know it's baby steps first... and planting trees is important for our over developed Seattle area... trees make for better air quality...
now that I'm done w/my rant I'll have a :evil:, haha
I want to show up because I think establishing a good repore will really help us come out of being 'cladestine', 'underground' dare I say 'outlaw' around here and eventually, someday we'll have the sort of thing going for us like the N Shore...
but I know it's baby steps first... and planting trees is important for our over developed Seattle area... trees make for better air quality...
now that I'm done w/my rant I'll have a :evil:, haha
we do though. Threatenings of trail closures, upset locals, moratorium on building anything new...blah blah blah. Sound familiar? 
We are following in the footsteps nicely minus one small part - well over a decade, almost two, of trails nobody knew about!
We are following in the footsteps nicely minus one small part - well over a decade, almost two, of trails nobody knew about!
Str8OutaBallard said:
Well looks like i will be staying in town sat we are trying to move and have to go look for apts so i will go out to marginal will try to be there from 10 til 1 have apt at 1:30in west seattle
This is a little off subject but how does everyone else deal with landlords and bikes???
This is a little off subject but how does everyone else deal with landlords and bikes???
landlords and bikes -
depends on your apt/house setup. The last two apts we lived in one had a balcony so we just locked them out there. The other we converted the dining area into a bike "room". We tossed some office plastic flooring down to help preserve the carpet. Of course, we never had issues with the landlords regarding the bikes. They saw us carrying our bikes to/from the apt and always just said hi. Luckily now, we are in a house and have a dedicated bike room.
Bikes are not like pets, you don't have to let the landlord know you are going to be keeping them in the apt Just find a hose hookup outside the apt complex, buy a hose, and keep it clean.
On-topic -
it looks like I am going to be unable to make it out Sat. But I am meeting him today at some point to go over another project.
depends on your apt/house setup. The last two apts we lived in one had a balcony so we just locked them out there. The other we converted the dining area into a bike "room". We tossed some office plastic flooring down to help preserve the carpet. Of course, we never had issues with the landlords regarding the bikes. They saw us carrying our bikes to/from the apt and always just said hi. Luckily now, we are in a house and have a dedicated bike room.
Bikes are not like pets, you don't have to let the landlord know you are going to be keeping them in the apt
Just find a hose hookup outside the apt complex, buy a hose, and keep it clean. On-topic -
it looks like I am going to be unable to make it out Sat. But I am meeting him today at some point to go over another project.
My cousin and his wife were training on their bikes. A car lost control and hit both of them. David was killed. His wife has many injuries. He was a Shimano rep. They want me to give the Eulogy on Saturday in California. Thanks for stepping up to the plate! You know who you are.
Is this David that was the GT rep a while back?Forecaster said:
Condolences.
Saturday at 10 it is. Hopefully Mark can give us some good insight into how to maintian our trail properly.
Another thing to mention, if you can not make it to the meeting and you support this trail, could you send Mark an email showing your support for the trail. buphalo@naturec.org.
Here is a map created by Mark to show us where our trail is on the hill.
And since we're already going to be out there, is anyone up for shuttling the trail a bit before 10am or after?
Another thing to mention, if you can not make it to the meeting and you support this trail, could you send Mark an email showing your support for the trail. buphalo@naturec.org.
Here is a map created by Mark to show us where our trail is on the hill.
And since we're already going to be out there, is anyone up for shuttling the trail a bit before 10am or after?
