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ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
An Open Letter from Michael Moore to George "I'm a War President!" Bush



February 11, 2004 (67th anniversary of the Great Flint Sit-Down Strike)

Dear Mr. Bush,

Thank you for providing the illegible Xeroxed partial payroll sheets (or whatever they were) yesterday covering a few of your days in the National Guard. Now we know that, not only didn't you complete your tour of duty, you were actually paid for work you never did. Did you cash those checks? Wouldn't that be, um, illegal?

Watching the press aggressively demand the truth from your press secretary -- and refusing to accept the deceit, the dodging, and the cover-up -- was a sight to behold, something we really haven't seen since you took office (to watch or listen to the entire press conference, or to read the full transcript, go here).

More than one reporter pointed out that those pieces of paper your press secretary waved at them yesterday mean nothing. Even if they aren't forged documents, getting paid does not necessarily mean you showed up to do your duties. As retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year veteran, told the AP:



"Pay records don't mean anything except that you're in or you're out," said Smith. "It doesn't necessarily reflect what duty you've actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period."

Mr. Bush, this issue is not going to go away -- and I think yesterday's actions just dug you into a deeper hole. You're probably wondering why the heck this story won't just die. You probably thought that after I brought it up last month and then got slammed by Peter Jennings for uttering the "d" word, the whole matter would just disappear as fast as bag of blow being thrown out the window of a speeding car on a deserted Maine highway.

But your "desertion" didn't go away -- and here's the reason why. You have sent countless numbers of our sons and daughters in the National Guard to their deaths in the last 11 months. You did this while misleading their parents and the nation with bogus lies about weapons of mass destruction and scary phony Saddam ties to al Qaeda. You sent them off to a never-ending war so that your benefactors at Halliburton and the oil companies could line their pockets. And then you had the audacity to prance around in a soldier's uniform on an aircraft carrier proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" -- while the cameras from your re-election campaign ad agency rolled.

THAT is what makes this whole business of you being AWOL so despicable, and makes the grief-stricken relatives want to turn away from you in disgust. The reason your skipping-out on your enlistment didn't matter in the 2000 election was because we were not at war. Being stuck in a deadly, daily quagmire now in 2004 makes your military history-fiction and your fly-boy costume VERY relevant.

You still have not answered the questions surrounding your National Guard "service." Let me repeat them as simply as I can for you (all of them based on the investigative work of the Associated Press and the Boston Globe):

1. How were you able to jump ahead of 500 other applicants to get into the Texas Air National Guard, thus guaranteeing you would not have to go to Vietnam? What calls did your father (who was then a United States Congressman representing Texas) make on your behalf for you to get this assignment?

2. Why were you grounded (not allowed to fly) after you either failed your physical or failed to take it in July 1972? Was there a reason you were afraid to take the physical? Or, did you take it and not pass it? If so, why didn't you pass it? Was it the urine test? The records show that, after the Guard spent years and lots of money training you to be a pilot, you never flew for the rest of your time in the Guard. Why?

3. Can you produce one person who can verify that he served with you in the Guard during the year that your Texas commanders said you did not show up? Why have you failed to bring forth anyone who served with you in the Guard while you were in Alabama? Why hasn't ONE SINGLE PERSON come forward?

4. Can you tell us what you did when you claim to have shown up in Alabama for Guard duty? What were you duties? You were grounded, so what did they have you do instead?

5. Where are the sign-up sheets that would have your name and service number on them for each weekend you showed up? Aaron Brown on CNN told us how, when he was in the reserves, he had to sign in each time he reported, and his guest from the Washington Post said, that's right, and there would be "four copies of that record" in the files of various agencies. Will you ask those agencies to release those records?

6. If you were in fact paid for that time when you apparently went AWOL, will you authorize the IRS to release your 1972-73 tax returns?



7. How did you get an honorable discharge? What strings were pulled? Who called who?

Look, I'm sorry to have put you through all this. I was just goofing around when I made that comment about wanting to see a debate between the general and the deserter. I had no idea that it would lead to this. And there you were, having to suffer through Tim Russert on Sunday, saying weird things like "I'm a war president!" I guess you believe that, or you want us to believe that. Americans have never voted out a Commander-in-Chief during a war. I guess that's what you're hoping for. You need the war.

But we don't. And our troops in the National Guard don't either. I know you see the writing on the wall, so why not come clean now? We are a forgiving people, and though you will not be returned to White House, you will find us grateful for a little bit of truth. Answer our questions, apologize to the nation, and bring our kids home.

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com

www.michaelmoore.com
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by I Are Baboon
Why the hell does everyone care so much about this guy? Really? I just don't get it. :confused:
No one cares about M. Moore... he just inserts himself into the liberal media and the liberal media pays attention to him because they are on an anti-Bush campeign trying to influence the election in Nov.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,504
20,303
Sleazattle
Originally posted by N8
No one cares about M. Moore... he just inserts himself into the liberal media and the liberal media pays attention to him because they are on an anti-Bush campeign trying to influence the election in Nov.
Better make sure you put on your tinfoil hat so liberal aliens don't use liberal sattelites to warp your brain with liberal mind control rays and make you a liberal.
 

derekbob

Monkey
Sep 4, 2003
198
0
Chico
Im not a fan of Michael Moore, but I like that letter except for one part. That is the part where MM tries to take credit for exposing GWB and forcing him to produce documents that were supposed to clear him and infact were incriminating. We all knew GWB was an AWOL draft dodger when we didnt elect him in 2000.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by I Are Baboon
Why the hell does everyone care so much about this guy? Really? I just don't get it. :confused:
He's good at getting attention. He has a knack for bringing his issues to the surface and making them public spectacle.

His "facts" may be as much opinion as the crap N8 posts, but like that drivel, it does get a response. There's value in that, even if it requires follow-up to find REAL facts.
 

derekbob

Monkey
Sep 4, 2003
198
0
Chico
Originally posted by N8
No one cares about M. Moore... he just inserts himself into the liberal media and the liberal media pays attention to him because they are on an anti-Bush campeign trying to influence the election in Nov.
I think I see some envy here
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Originally posted by N8
No one cares about M. Moore... he just inserts himself into the liberal media and the liberal media pays attention to him because they are on an anti-Bush campeign trying to influence the election in Nov.
Shesh, your as bad as the Hilary Clinton with this stuff. We had her yacking about the , "vast right wing...."

Now we have you any your "...anti-Bush" crap.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Just commenting on the pay stub issue:

Anyone have their exact pay stubs from the 70's?

Do you think you could get them?

I am guessing the paper work lost or degraded in Micro(phische?) in storage for 30 years.

I challenge that anyone here go back to their employer (whomever it was 10yrs ago) and ask for their pay stubs or a copy of their pay record. You are lucky if there is any electronic record past 2000 and paper records past (I don't kow how long but it aint 30yrs) like 8yrs.

Difficult to attain? Yes. Impossible? Not neccessarily, but near impossible at least.
 

derekbob

Monkey
Sep 4, 2003
198
0
Chico
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Just commenting on the pay stub issue:

Anyone have their exact pay stubs from the 70's?

Do you think you could get them?

I am guessing the paper work lost or degraded in Micro(phische?) in storage for 30 years.

I challenge that anyone here go back to their employer (whomever it was 10yrs ago) and ask for their pay stubs or a copy of their pay record. You are lucky if there is any electronic record past 2000 and paper records past (I don't kow how long but it aint 30yrs) like 8yrs.

Difficult to attain? Yes. Impossible? Not neccessarily, but near impossible at least.
Anyone here want to run for president? I challenge anyone here to run for president.
 

I Are Baboon

The Full Dopey
Aug 6, 2001
32,439
9,520
MTB New England
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Just commenting on the pay stub issue:

Anyone have their exact pay stubs from the 70's?

Do you think you could get them?

I am guessing the paper work lost or degraded in Micro(phische?) in storage for 30 years.

I challenge that anyone here go back to their employer (whomever it was 10yrs ago) and ask for their pay stubs or a copy of their pay record. You are lucky if there is any electronic record past 2000 and paper records past (I don't kow how long but it aint 30yrs) like 8yrs.

Difficult to attain? Yes. Impossible? Not neccessarily, but near impossible at least.
Hey, I can answer that since I work in payroll. :D Most employers can provide pay information going back for quite a while. It varies, depending on the company. But companies keep payroll records because they help with legal issues and audits, among other things. The last company I worked for had payroll records on microfiche going back to the late 60's. The fiche quality was just fine. My current employer has them going back to about 1970.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,504
20,303
Sleazattle
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Or anne coulter or whoever. It doesnt matter.
Yep, there are just as many right wing nuts as left wing nuts out there, Franken, Moore, Coulter, Limbaugh. They are all annoying in my opinion but they do serve as social checks and balances. The right pisses on the left and the left craps on the right.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,504
20,303
Sleazattle
Originally posted by derekbob
Anyone here want to run for president? I challenge anyone here to run for president.
I'll run, but not very hard. Write in for Westy. My platform is that everyone gets to retire for 10 years between the age of 20 and 40 then goes back to work until they die. Anyone who lives past 70 is executed.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
As a service to all of you who have not served your country in the US military (active or reserve) let me educate you on a few items:

1. One cannot be AWOL while a reserve or Guardsman in a drill status.

2. One is meeting the required number of drills (one weekend per month and two weeks active duty training some time during the year) or he is not.

3. If one is in an unsatisfactory drilling status, the commanding officer of the drilling reservist or Guardsman can notify the individual that he will be separated from the service after 12 unexcused drills.

4. Once notified, the individual can make up the unexcused drills and return to a satisfactory drilling status.

5. If you are in the National Guard, a state trooper can show up on your door step and escort you to your duty station (or the brig) depending on what movements you have missed with your unit.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Originally posted by I Are Baboon
Hey, I can answer that since I work in payroll. :D Most employers can provide pay information going back for quite a while. It varies, depending on the company. But companies keep payroll records because they help with legal issues and audits, among other things. The last company I worked for had payroll records on microfiche going back to the late 60's. The fiche quality was just fine. My current employer has them going back to about 1970.
Do you think that is normal?

I don't.

Past 10 years is almost time to shred.

Seriously. I don't think 40years is normal....alteast not stubs or actual paper work...maybe a system print out or journal. i spent about a half year at a county office and they had a hand kept Cash Receipts journal from the dawn of time and it was set to be trashed when someone yanked it for sentimental reasons. It was pretty cool but nothing that was meantto be kept around....actaully they found it behind shelving.....is why it lasted as long as it did.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I don't think 40years is normal
You keep saying 40. It's 32 years.

I have no idea if that makes any difference. I don't work for the government.


I just like math
 

derekbob

Monkey
Sep 4, 2003
198
0
Chico
Originally posted by $tinkle
Im not envious of anyone here, I am upset that the popular vote dosent decide a presidental election however. To tell the truth, if the situation were reversed and GWB had won the popular and Gore had won the electoral and presidency, Id be the first to say, "Dam, we just dodged one hell of a bullet!"
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by ummbikes
7. How did you get an honorable discharge?
My biggest concern is the logic that was presented. He said (during the Meet the Press Interview), "There may be no evidence, but I did report. Otherwise I wouldn't have been honorably discharged."

All rhombuses are squares...

There are other ways that an honorable discharge could be gotten (instead of deserving one). And Moore's point that the then Congressman of Texas might have been able to pull some strings is an alternative solution to that conundrum. The logic sounds like it is a sleight of hand (when it wouldn't seem it would be necessary).
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Originally posted by ohio
You keep saying 40. It's 32 years.

I have no idea if that makes any difference. I don't work for the government.


I just like math
If IAB has pay records from the 60's? :confused: I wasn't talking about GWB and his records....wich BTW is a long time to keep around....or find when you really need to (Like he needed to...)
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by derekbob
Im not envious of anyone here, I am upset that the popular vote dosent decide a presidental election however. To tell the truth, if the situation were reversed and GWB had won the popular and Gore had won the electoral and presidency, Id be the first to say, "Dam, we just dodged one hell of a bullet!"
As to Algore lossing the election lemme say with relief, "Damn, we just dodged one hell of a bullet!"

Seems like the Founding Fathers knew exactly what they were doing by establishing the electorial college.
 

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
40,618
9,620
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Just commenting on the pay stub issue:

Anyone have their exact pay stubs from the 70's?

Do you think you could get them?

I am guessing the paper work lost or degraded in Micro(phische?) in storage for 30 years.

I challenge that anyone here go back to their employer (whomever it was 10yrs ago) and ask for their pay stubs or a copy of their pay record. You are lucky if there is any electronic record past 2000 and paper records past (I don't kow how long but it aint 30yrs) like 8yrs.

Difficult to attain? Yes. Impossible? Not neccessarily, but near impossible at least.
Oddly enough, until last year, I had the pay stubs from when I was a teenager through the present. about 17 years worth.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by charmin
There are other ways that an honorable discharge could be gotten (instead of deserving one). And Moore's point that the then Congressman of Texas might have been able to pull some strings is an alternative solution to that conundrum. The logic sounds like it is a sleight of hand (when it wouldn't seem it would be necessary).
Honestly, as much I'd like to see him dragged over the coals for this... he's now president and it's highly unlikely that we'll be able to disprove that he showed up.

People already have their minds made up about his character one way or the other... and I'd much rather see him taken to task on the issues and his work as president, not the work or lack thereof from when he was a (like most of us are or were) an irresponsible 20 year old.

The dems are going to be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't let this one go (they've already done as much damage as they can) and start focusing on real policies. The more KERRY has to answer questions about Bush's service, the less presidential and more petty he's going to seem.
 

I Are Baboon

The Full Dopey
Aug 6, 2001
32,439
9,520
MTB New England
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Do you think that is normal?

I don't.

Past 10 years is almost time to shred.

Seriously. I don't think 40years is normal....alteast not stubs or actual paper work...maybe a system print out or journal. i spent about a half year at a county office and they had a hand kept Cash Receipts journal from the dawn of time and it was set to be trashed when someone yanked it for sentimental reasons. It was pretty cool but nothing that was meantto be kept around....actaully they found it behind shelving.....is why it lasted as long as it did.
None of the companies I've worked for keep paper records. It's all fiche and electronic data. Microfiche is small and 40 years worth of fiche does not take up that much storage room. Payroll records are one of those things companies do not like to destroy. Now in the electronic age, fiche has been replaced with CD ROM, and in some cases, data is simply stored on a network. I really can't say what's normal, but being a payroll manager myself, I would not let the company I work for destroy any payroll records unless it was backed up on fiche or CD.