[DRB]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18386897/

A department of the Iraqi prime minister's office is playing a leading role in the arrest and removal of senior Iraqi army and national police officers, some of whom have apparently worked too aggressively to combat violent Shiite militias, according to U.S. military officials in Baghdad.

Although some of the officers appear to have been fired for legitimate reasons, such as poor performance or corruption, several were considered to be among the better Iraqi officers in the field. The dismissals have angered U.S. and Iraqi leaders who say the Shiite-led government is sabotaging the military to achieve sectarian goals.

At the national level, some U.S. officials are increasingly concerned about the Office of the Commander in Chief, a behind-the-scenes department that works on military issues for the prime minister.

One adviser in the office, Bassima Luay Hasun al-Jaidri, has enough influence to remove and intimidate senior commanders, and her work has "stifled" many officers who are afraid of angering her, a senior U.S. military official said. U.S. commanders are considering installing a U.S. liaison officer in the department to better understand its influence.

"Her office harasses [Iraqi commanders] if they are nationalistic and fair," said the U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity out of concern over publicly criticizing the Iraqi government. "They need to get rid of her and her little group."

 

[Westy]

Don't worry the surge will take care of it.

 

[valve bouncer]

But but but but...N8 says we're winning and we're all a bunch of nancy-boys.

 

[$tinkle]

does this fit here?

NYTimes: Qaeda Leader May Have Been Killed, Official Says

can't see how this hurts (unless, of course, you're rooting for the terrorists). you do love the usa, ja?

 

[Westy]

does this fit here?

NYTimes: Qaeda Leader May Have Been Killed, Official Says

can't see how this hurts (unless, of course, you're rooting for the terrorists). you do love the usa, ja?

Things really took a turn for the better when we killed Zawahiri. All we need to do is kill the thousands of others that waiting in line for the job and it will be Mission Accomplished.

 

[$tinkle]

zarqawi, you racist
zawahiri is alive & well, still smuggling felafels in his faraway spice laden flaps.

 

[$tinkle]

al-masri's wiki entry is a mess. nothing like his scat-soaked rags, of course.

so seeing how he was [allegedly] killed by other muslims, what does this mean?
- the surge is working b/c it's forcing sunnis & shias to fight each other (and not us)
- the surge is failing b/c it's forcing sunnis & shias to fight each other (and not us)

that's mind blowing. nothing like al-masri's mind of course, which is literally blown.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

al-masri's wiki entry is a mess. nothing like his scat-soaked rags, of course.

so seeing how he was [allegedly] killed by other muslims, what does this mean?
- the surge is working b/c it's forcing sunnis & shias to fight each other (and not us)
- the surge is failing b/c it's forcing sunnis & shias to fight each other (and not us)

that's mind blowing. nothing like al-masri's mind of course, which is literally blown.

So, like, throwing a country into a civil war is totally cool now? Remind me how a surge is going to remedy this....I mean other than complete annihilation of the population of the country.


Edit: And, no, I don't think that your "the surge is/isn't working" options have actually anything to do with sunnis and shias killing each other. There was a power vacuum. Peeps are trying to fill it. Hatred boils over. Same 'ol, same 'ol.

 

[$tinkle]

So, like, throwing a country into a civil war is totally cool now? Remind me how a surge is going to remedy this....I mean other than complete annihilation of the population of the country.

you & i know full well if the goal were complete annihilation we wouldn't do it so up close & personal. never was the point of my post; rather it was to smoke out people like you who already have written off our military (remember them? the guys who are doing the work?). maybe you didn't mean this. it is fair for me to infer this, however.

so what do you do with this report from the state dept, which states terrorist attacks are down. certainly, you'll agree bush isn't trying to catch bees w/ honey, but rather the lord of the flies w/ his flypaper strategy.

you aren't going to try & make the argument out of whole cloth that where we create the terrorists, we don't have the bragging rights to their declining numbers, are you? that would be more than daft.

Edit: And, no, I don't think that your "the surge is/isn't working" options have actually anything to do with sunnis and shias killing each other. There was a power vacuum. Peeps are trying to fill it. Hatred boils over. Same 'ol, same 'ol.

kafir, please.
you think we're fighting for their attention?. tell me how you understand our reason(s) for the surge, and what it hopes to accomplish, both short & long term. (single-space, 1" margins, 10pt verdana)

 

[Secret Squirrel]

you & i know full well if the goal were complete annihilation we wouldn't do it so up close & personal. never was the point of my post; rather it was to smoke out people like you who already have written off our military (remember them? the guys who are doing the work?). maybe you didn't mean this. it is fair for me to infer this, however.

I doubt that this administration ever meant to toss the country into a civil war. They wanted a larger presence in the mid-east. Great. What ended up happening, though, IS civil war. Now the surge is to try and control it. Guess what? It's not gonna work. All we're gonna see is more body bags rollin' off of C5's.

so what do you do with this report from the state dept, which states terrorist attacks are down. certainly, you'll agree bush isn't trying to catch bees w/ honey, but rather the lord of the flies w/ his flypaper strategy.

Great, terrorist attacks are down. I guess killing our boys on their land is better than killing our boys on our land...but the result is the same. And no, I did not mean to sound like I was writing off the military and the sacrifice that they're making over there.

While Shurb & Co. are deftly manuevering the flypaper, hatred continues to grow. But I guess once we catch the lord of the flies all this will go away and peeps be rejoicing once more...

you aren't going to try & make the argument out of whole cloth that where we create the terrorists, we don't have the bragging rights to their declining numbers, are you? that would be more than daft.

Attacks down = Yay

So why is almost every month in Iraq worse (in terms of civilian casualties anyway) than the month before? Or do car bombings at markets in a "conflict zone" not equal terrorist activities? (fwiw, it does equal terrorist activities to me due to the fact that they're not specifically targeting soldiers in these instances. Our soldiers are a lot easier to spot...)

kafir, please.
you think we're fighting for their attention?. tell me how you understand our reason(s) for the surge, and what it hopes to accomplish, both short & long term. (single-space, 1" margins, 10pt verdana)

I guess I'm missing what you mean by "fighting for their attention"....We took out the dictator of a country. People saw an opportunity for power. Now we're caught up in the middle of it and the administration thinks tossing more troops in-country will solve the problem of centuries old hatred. That's what I was trying to get across. I could come up with a whole bunch of theories (from what Rove put in George's Wheaties to how messed up Cheney is from his lesbian daughter conflicting with his beliefs) and it wouldn't even come close to the reality.

 

[$tinkle]

What ended up happening, though, IS civil war. Now the surge is to try and control it. Guess what? It's not gonna work. All we're gonna see is more body bags rollin' off of C5's.

i'll freely admit this: they have a stronger stomach for war than us, if for no other reason the best life can be for them (in the short-term anyway) isn't much better than all-out war. but, that's a cultural thang.

interesting article at TNR: Congressional leaders are illiterate on Iraq. (free subscription).

here, lemme paste:

Maybe it was a slip of the tongue. But, when Nancy Pelosi confessed last year that she felt "sad" about President Bush's claims that Al Qaeda operates in Iraq, she seemed to be disputing what every American soldier in Iraq, every Al Qaeda operative, and anyone who reads a newspaper already knew to be true. (When I questioned him about Pelosi's assertion, a U.S. officer in Ramadi responded, incredulously, that Al Qaeda had just held a parade in his sector.) Perhaps the House speaker was alluding to the discredited claim that Al Qaeda operated in Iraq before the war. Perhaps. But the insinuation that Al Qaeda's depredations in Iraq might be something other than what they appear to be has become a staple of the congressional debate over Iraq. Thus, to buttress his own case for withdrawal, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "We have to change course [away from Iraq] and turn our attention back to the war on Al Qaeda and their allies"--the clear message being that neither plays much of a role there.

What is going on here? There are two possibilities: First, Reid and Pelosi could be purposefully minimizing the stakes in Iraq. Or, second, they don't know what they're talking about. My guess is some combination of the two. Political maneuvering certainly contributes to the everyday pollution of Iraq discourse. But a lot of the pollution derives from legislators being functionally illiterate about the war over which Congress now intends to preside. In this, of course, they're hardly alone. The Bush administration's wretched Iraq literacy has been well-chronicled. But, with Congress demanding a louder say in the management of the war, the same knowledge gap that plagued our arrival in Iraq looks like it will be revived just in time for our departure.

Whatever explains the literacy gap, this much at least is obvious: Having been called into being by politicians on both sides of the aisle, the war in Iraq no longer bears a relation to anything they say. You don't need to cherry-pick quotes to prove the point: Nearly every time a senator's mouth opens, something wrong comes out. A typical example came a few weeks ago when Senator Joseph Biden took to the op-ed page of The Washington Post. In response to an equally surreal op-ed by Senator John McCain, Biden wrote,

The most damning evidence that the "results" McCain cites are illusory is the city of Tall Afar. Architects of the president's plan called it a model because in 2005, a surge of about 10,000 Americans and Iraqis pacified the city. Then we left Tall Afar, just as our troops soon will leave the Baghdad neighborhoods that they have calmed.

A minor detail perhaps, but "we" never left Tal Afar. In 2006, the First Brigade of the First Armored Division replaced the Third Armored Cavalry Regiment, actually boosting the number of Americans in the city. Biden's analysis will also come as news for the 25th Infantry Division, whose soldiers were patrolling the streets of Tal Afar even as the senator claimed otherwise. Not to single Biden out: Who can forget Representative John Murtha's suggestion that it would be a cinch for American forces to "redeploy" from Iraq to nearby Okinawa, 5,000 miles from Baghdad? Or House Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes not knowing whether Sunni or Shia populate the ranks of Al Qaeda? U.S. officers in Iraq say that, during their briefings to visiting delegations, they routinely find themselves subjected to examples of congressional oversight along the lines of: Is (the northern city of) Mosul east or west of Baghdad? What's the difference between a brigade and battalion?

As to why some of Capitol Hill's would-be war managers can't name more than a single Iraqi province, officers and journalists offer all kinds of theories. A common explanation points to the shrinking percentage of veterans in Congress, which amounts to a paltry fraction of the World War II cohort that legislated the war in Vietnam (and, incidentally, did a lousy job). But the ranks of the confused feature enough veterans, most notably Reid and Murtha, to disprove the theory. Another blames the reluctance of delegations to venture beyond the Green Zone or the bases they visit--and, then, their reluctance to be dazed by the sheer unfamiliarity of it all. "I'll never forget the helicopters coming in at night delivering wounded to the hospital in the Green Zone," the Iraq Study Group's Leon Panetta marveled to The Washington Post. "We've all seen 'M.A.S.H.,' and yet it was happening right there." Which brings us to yet another explanation for the literacy gap: Today's wise men don't exactly rise to the level of their predecessors. In place of William Bundy and Walt Rostow, we have Panetta and Vernon Jordan; as the custodian of William Fulbright's legacy, we have Harry Reid. The former hungered for the data and lacuna of war; the latter seem frankly uninterested.

[and on & on...]

 

[Echo]

So there are still people who think we can "win" in Iraq?

 

[lugnuts]

you folks are funny. Tell me again how many of you have actually been over to see whats happening first hand?

 

[Echo]

you folks are funny. Tell me again how many of you have actually been over to see whats happening first hand?

I've been to Bahrain, Kuwait, and Oman. Strangely, there was a time my whitebread ass could walk around Arab countries without fear of getting blowed up.

 

[lugnuts]

sweet, thats one person who has a valid opinion in my eyes. anyone else?

 

[Westy]

you folks are funny. Tell me again how many of you have actually been over to see whats happening first hand?

Exactly, we are winning the **** out of this one. The media just wants everyone to think we are losing. The only reason we are still there is winning for four years straight is so much fun it would be a shame to stop winning now.

 

[jimmydean]

you folks are funny. Tell me again how many of you have actually been over to see whats happening first hand?

I was there last time, no need to go back because it's worse this time around.

Although at some point I want to check out the big palm tree island thing, that would be cool. Last time I was in Dubai, there wasn't a whole lot to check out.

 

[lugnuts]

Exactly, we are winning the **** out of this one. The media just wants everyone to think we are losing. The only reason we are still there is winning for four years straight is so much fun it would be a shame to stop winning now.

hey I'm not saying we are winning or losing here, I'm just wondering who has been over and formulated their own views based on things seen with their own eyes. I'm sure the media gets paid to tell the whole 100% accurate truth all of the time. I mean, why wouldn't they, right?

 

[$tinkle]

So there are still people who think we can "win" in Iraq?

we're called patriots.
we have tights that accentuate our manliness.

 

[jimmydean]

hey I'm not saying we are winning or losing here, I'm just wondering who has been over and formulated their own views based on things seen with their own eyes. I'm sure the media gets paid to tell the whole 100% accurate truth all of the time. I mean, why wouldn't they, right?

Also, my National Guard unit was in Iraq and they are now in Afghanistan, so I have a good idea based on first hand accounts from good friends of mine.

 

[lugnuts]

Also, my National Guard unit was in Iraq and they are now in Afghanistan, so I have a good idea based on first hand accounts from good friends of mine.

thats right, you were the eleven bang bang that got out not too long ago, right? You mentioned that in another thread. So, what are your buddies saying these days? Progress or no?



That palm tree island thingy is pretty cool BTW. I caught a Discovery channel show about it not too long ago.

 

[ohio]

I'm just wondering who has been over and formulated their own views based on things seen with their own eyes.

I don't need to walk into a fertilizer factory to know it smells like ****.

 

[lugnuts]

I don't need to walk into a fertilizer factory to know it smells like ****.

Well then don't go complaining about the smell.

 

[$tinkle]

I don't need to walk into a fertilizer factory to know it smells like ****.

but they do have tours

 

[dhbuilder]

you folks are funny. Tell me again how many of you have actually been over to see whats happening first hand?

bingo !!!
there's a few military men i've talked to and one neighbor who's an engineer who's spent a ton of time there.

trust me.
m.s.n.b.c. is a left leaning propaganda news organization.
nothing anyone who works for them says is anything but agenda driven.
all their shows are pretty much a joke.
i watch em when i need a good laugh.

but you can tell how successful they are in their indoctrunating style by the views of oh so many right here.

 

[H8R]

sweet, thats one person who has a valid opinion in my eyes. anyone else?

To judge opinions as valid, you must have a valid opinion yourself.

Please state your credentials.

 

[jimmydean]

bingo !!!
there's a few military men i've talked to and one neighbor who's an engineer who's spent a ton of time there.

trust me.
m.s.n.b.c. is a left leaning propaganda news organization.
nothing anyone who works for them says is anything but agenda driven.
all their shows are pretty much a joke.
i watch em when i need a good laugh.

but you can tell how successful they are in their indoctrunating style by the views of oh so many right here.

And that's why I get all my news from FOX. lthumbsdown:

 

[$tinkle]

Please state your credentials.

i've got "hail to the chief" ringtone & know 4 masonic passwords

 

[lugnuts]

To judge opinions as valid, you must have a valid opinion yourself.

Please state your credentials.

Not necessarily. I don't need to have an opinion in order to question someone else's. The point is that if they really know what they are talking about and are not just spewing a bunch of crap they read/heard on the news, then I would hold their views at value, regardless of which direction they lean.

And my credentials are irrelevant.

 

[H8R]

Not necessarily. I don't need to have an opinion in order to question someone else's.

And my credentials are irrelevant.

Thought so.

 

[lugnuts]

thought so? Whats that mean?

 

[BurlyShirley]

bingo !!!
there's a few military men i've talked to and one neighbor who's an engineer who's spent a ton of time there.

Well, through the same channels, Ive heard alot of negative things from friends of mine who've spent time there. I've only been out 3 years now, so I still know alot of Marines (one of which just died, LCpl. Adam Bishop of Dickson, Tn.) who are involved and have been there that tell me things are NOT so good. To me it sounds like they all hate their lives, see the mission as pointless and wish they could come home and get out of that godforsaken hellhole for good. Same old stuff they say...the same people you help out one day are shooting you the next, things are getting worse, etc... And these arent exactly Michael Moore fans if you know what i mean, either. MSNBC, Fox and the rest have their agendas, but the daily disasters we see on the news arent being made up. I dont know if leaving is the right answer. Personally, Id like to see our govt. plead to the UN for international help in the interest of SAVING LIVES first and foremost.

 

[Transcend]

bingo !!!
there's a few military men i've talked to and one neighbor who's an engineer who's spent a ton of time there.

trust me.
m.s.n.b.c. is a left leaning propaganda news organization.
nothing anyone who works for them says is anything but agenda driven.
all their shows are pretty much a joke.
i watch em when i need a good laugh.

but you can tell how successful they are in their indoctrunating style by the views of oh so many right here.

Did you finish 9th grade or did you go straight to special NRA classes?

Fox news! all the news that's fit to make up.

 

[Changleen]

bingo !!!
there's a few military men i've talked to and one neighbor who's an engineer who's spent a ton of time there.

trust me.
m.s.n.b.c. is a left leaning propaganda news organization.
nothing anyone who works for them says is anything but agenda driven.
all their shows are pretty much a joke.
i watch em when i need a good laugh.

but you can tell how successful they are in their indoctrunating style by the views of oh so many right here.

Do you actually think about what you type before you type it?

 

[ohio]

Well then don't go complaining about the smell.

I'll put it this way: I don't need to worry about the details of whether Abdul the (former) Shop Owner is a friendly or a bomber today. All I need to know is that this war has gone on for 4 years, may or may not be intensifying but is certainly not rapidly ending, we have no clear strategy, we have no clear definition of victory, it has cost us in the neighborhood of $1 trillion, no one over there is a direct threat to the domestic US, and at this stage it doesn't really matter which direction the winds of popular Iraqi support (if there even is such a thing now that it has inarguably descended into sectarian violence) are blowing.

These are the facts, and that's all I need to inform an opinion of "We just shouldn't be there, or like Burly says we should beg and plead for help."

 

[DirtyDog]

hey I'm not saying we are winning or losing here, I'm just wondering who has been over and formulated their own views based on things seen with their own eyes. I'm sure the media gets paid to tell the whole 100% accurate truth all of the time. I mean, why wouldn't they, right?

So the average joe, on an average joe trip of average length, would see enough to know what is going on in a regional conflict? Is that a magic trip? Have you take this magic trip?

 

[jimmydean]

Well, through the same channels, Ive heard alot of negative things from friends of mine who've spent time there. I've only been out 3 years now, so I still know alot of Marines (one of which just died, LCpl. Adam Bishop of Dickson, Tn.) who are involved and have been there that tell me things are NOT so good. To me it sounds like they all hate their lives, see the mission as pointless and wish they could come home and get out of that godforsaken hellhole for good. Same old stuff they say...the same people you help out one day are shooting you the next, things are getting worse, etc... And these arent exactly Michael Moore fans if you know what i mean, either. MSNBC, Fox and the rest have their agendas, but the daily disasters we see on the news arent being made up. I dont know if leaving is the right answer. Personally, Id like to see our govt. plead to the UN for international help in the interest of SAVING LIVES first and foremost.

I got Occupation Dreamland on Netflix a few weeks ago and thought it was a very solid view of the crap that goes on outside the green zone.

It's about the 82nd, but in the end, the 82nd is replaced by Marines that have it a lot worse than the 82nd did due to the fact the locals are getting sick of the occupation.

There is a lot less of a slant and more of a focus on the lack of direction in the lower ranks about the overall mission and purpose.

 

[DirtyDog]

Do you actually think about what you type before you type it?

I should dig up his comments on Michael J. Fox's MS struggle. Probably the dumbest thing ever posted on the intarweb.

 

[ohio]

There is a lot less of a slant and more of a focus on the lack of direction in the lower ranks about the overall mission and purpose.

Go spew your propaganda elsewhere, Hippy. We don't need this defeatist talk of "lack of direction" from some ivory tower academic who's never stepped foot in a combat zone.

 

[jimmydean]

Go spew your propaganda elsewhere, Hippy. We don't need this defeatist talk of "lack of direction" from some ivory tower academic who's never stepped foot in a combat zone.

Nice.