[leprechaun]

Just got the new mountain bike fiction-at least they're good for stuff like this-
They have basically a 'derailleur' and a 7s cass inside now.Looks to be very similar to the Pete Speed version.Many may joke that they reverted back to a more simple system,but i feel that it proves they are not overly proud or close minded.They discovered(i beleve) they realised that despite the advantages of an infinetely adjustable ratio that the minute percentage of drag it had was not worth the benifit,and i would guess it's a lot lighter.
Personally i feel this is great news to mountain bikers since this tranny is far more possible to manufacture,and perhapse if they don't make it then others will take note and make something similar. :love:
Also there was an interview with Minnar and they said they are expanding their program and he will be racing 4x next year,but couldn't say what he would be riding.Also he said that Honda will be more open with the public about what is going on with their bikes.
OK now people can say it's still lame cuz it's ugly and stuff.

 

[Zark]

I'm dissappointed, but at least the derrailler can't be torn off by a rock when its in a box inside the frame. I guess it makes adjustments easier and your LBS mechanic won't want to kill you when you ask for a tune-up...well maybe not

 

[Transcend]

I heard this a few weeks ago, it bodes very well when coupled with our story that they are indeed looking to actively produce this bike. Direct from the words of their PR director in japan!

 

[dw]

This is EXACTLY what my sources insisted they were testing in the beginning of the 2004 season...

Dave

 

[Pip3r]

This is EXACTLY what my sources insisted they were testing in the beginning of the 2004 season...

Dave

which is even more reason we shoulda made that damn ransom note! haaaaaah

 

[Kornphlake]

So why the charade of having a half dozen technicians and a lengthy, in depth patent application? Not that I am doubting that the derailur in a box isn't the reality, I just wonder why they put on such a big show for something that would seem to be relatively simple.

 

[-BB-]

I think that they were recreating the wheel so to speak.

First they made the really fancy drivetrain w/ infinite gears and then, as stated in Krispy's post, they decided that a 7sp internal derailer would work well too.

 

[dhmtbj]

which is even more reason we shoulda made that damn ransom note! haaaaaah

seriously we definitely should have!

 

[DHanamal]

Honda 4X bike

Good thing Minnaar is back in 4X, when he was at Snowshoe he was filming during the 4X race, I'm sure he was dying to race on that course.

I think Honda figured out pretty quick that a manual shifting transmission is much more practical then any CVTs. Every pic that I've seen of that bike had an old shimano 7 spd shifter on the bars.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

So why the charade of having a half dozen technicians and a lengthy, in depth patent application? Not that I am doubting that the derailur in a box isn't the reality, I just wonder why they put on such a big show for something that would seem to be relatively simple.

Well, there is still the original statement from Honda regarding doing R&D for moto stuff . . . maybe they wanted to check out the infinite ratio on a bike with an engine that has under half a horsepower at peak instead of blowing them up trying them on the CRF450R.

The bike Minaar was riding actually did have the crazy transmission in it so it needed the techs to decipher how it was working (and at the same time put a Honda on the podium of mountain bike races every week). Two birds with one stone, ya know?

 

[lanman]

I'm glad they went to the simpler drivetrain, will make it more available, and is much more serviceable, well is serviceable to begin with.....but it is awfully similar to the Petespeed, which is a nother great design

 

[Transcend]

Well, there is still the original statement from Honda regarding doing R&D for moto stuff . . . maybe they wanted to check out the infinite ratio on a bike with an engine that has under half a horsepower at peak instead of blowing them up trying them on the CRF450R.

The bike Minaar was riding actually did have the crazy transmission in it so it needed the techs to decipher how it was working (and at the same time put a Honda on the podium of mountain bike races every week). Two birds with one stone, ya know?

actually, here is the scoop.

They did all the CVT research on the bike (and it WAS a cvt, they had to use a 7 spd shifter to abide by uci regs, has to be shifted by the rider) because DH bikes have MUCH more impact to strength then a moto. In other words, a bike takes much higher impact forces then a motorcycle when you look at them comparatively. A bike frame is just much weaker/less burly.

Greg was indeed on the CVT bike, and this he had the honda tech there. The other techs weren't for the CVT at all, they were suspension and brake techs from their respective companies.

As for the peak HP deal, it wasn't much of a worry. They already have them on their snomobile with over 800hp! It was more on how low they could go weightwise when it came to using the gearbox with CVT as a structural element of the frame.

They WILL be producing this bike for retail sale, but it will have the new setup in it, as a CVT is ridiculously expensive to reproduce for a super small market like the DH market.

 

[LukeD]

actually, here is the scoop.

They did all the CVT research on the bike (and it WAS a cvt, they had to use a 7 spd shifter to abide by uci regs, has to be shifted by the rider) because DH bikes have MUCH more impact to strength then a moto. In other words, a bike takes much higher impact forces then a motorcycle when you look at them comparatively. A bike frame is just much weaker/less burly.

Greg was indeed on the CVT bike, and this he had the honda tech there. The other techs weren't for the CVT at all, they were suspension and brake techs from their respective companies.

As for the peak HP deal, it wasn't much of a worry. They already have them on their snomobile with over 800hp! It was more on how low they could go weightwise when it came to using the gearbox with CVT as a structural element of the frame.

They WILL be producing this bike for retail sale, but it will have the new setup in it, as a CVT is ridiculously expensive to reproduce for a super small market like the DH market.

so now the next question is...what will we see for suspension...showa? i kinda doubt that but it would be nice.

 

[EVRAC]

I just re-read the start of this thread and realized it was from "mountain bike fiction"! I read the article and they were pretty brief on the subject. After that big article they did on the internals a few months back, you'd think they'd make a bigger deal of it. Probably two different proof-readers.

It's all still E-spec.

 

[dw]

I would GUESS that Honda finally came to the conclusion what I realized when investigating linkage CVTs for bikes. The only way to get a wider gear ratio range with a linkage CVT is to make it bigger. A lot bigger.

I mean, it was cool, well executed, and had some pretty carbon bits, and that is damn cool, but papermills have been using these transmissions just a lot bigger and made from cast Iron and steel for 80 or so years. Including odd variable pitch gears or cams to rectify shaft velocities. The systems are very well documented in transmission design textbooks. (thats where I learned of them at least).

 

[dw]

actually, here is the scoop.

They did all the CVT research on the bike (and it WAS a cvt, they had to use a 7 spd shifter to abide by uci regs, has to be shifted by the rider) because DH bikes have MUCH more impact to strength then a moto. In other words, a bike takes much higher impact forces then a motorcycle when you look at them comparatively. A bike frame is just much weaker/less burly.

Greg was indeed on the CVT bike, and this he had the honda tech there. The other techs weren't for the CVT at all, they were suspension and brake techs from their respective companies.

As for the peak HP deal, it wasn't much of a worry. They already have them on their snomobile with over 800hp! It was more on how low they could go weightwise when it came to using the gearbox with CVT as a structural element of the frame.

They WILL be producing this bike for retail sale, but it will have the new setup in it, as a CVT is ridiculously expensive to reproduce for a super small market like the DH market.

What the hell kind of snowmobile do they have with 800HP!!!

That **** must liquify snow when you pin it

FYI, the only way that system could be self shifting would be to attach some sort of swinging weight system, but because of the high forces developed in a linkage CVT, the swiniging mass shifter would have to be pretty burly/ heavy. Id guess the shifter would be the lighter route.

 

[Transcend]

What the hell kind of snowmobile do they have with 800HP!!!

That **** must liquify snow when you pin it

FYI, the only way that system could be self shifting would be to attach some sort of swinging weight system, but because of the high forces developed in a linkage CVT, the swiniging mass shifter would have to be pretty burly/ heavy. Id guess the shifter would be the lighter route.

ridiculous drag racing snowmobiles. Come to quebec this winter, we will go watch.

 

[HTFR]

good ol' Quebec.

 

[Transcend]

good ol' Quebec.

damn straight. (this is just an excuse to get weagle back up here and drinking. he has to book a damn boat off his island months in advance. )

 

[Espen]

Hey DW!
What can we expect from Evilbikes regarding transmisions??

Espen

 

[EVRAC]

What can we expect from Evilbikes regarding transmisions??

Yes indeed, give us a superbox sneak peak or some details!

 

[BurlyShirley]

They WILL be producing this bike for retail sale

I told you bastards this from the beginning and no one wanted to hear it. Dammit, I wish I werent so lazy and I cared enough to search for that so all you guys who doubted me could eat crow.

 

[dw]

Hey DW!
What can we expect from Evilbikes regarding transmisions??

Espen

Nothing at all, but you may want to keep an eye on e.thirteen late next spring.

Dave

 

[dw]

Yes indeed, give us a superbox sneak peak or some details!

All I can do is confirm its existence. Details are closely guarded right now. Around Sea Otter we should have some real info.

Dave

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

odd variable pitch gears .... cams... rectify shaft velocities.

Damn DW,reading your posts make my head hurt.

 

[trialsmasta]

Does anyone know what the ratio was of the Honda bike?

 

[trialsmasta]

I would GUESS that Honda finally came to the conclusion what I realized when investigating linkage CVTs for bikes. The only way to get a wider gear ratio range with a linkage CVT is to make it bigger. A lot bigger.

I mean, it was cool, well executed, and had some pretty carbon bits, and that is damn cool, but papermills have been using these transmissions just a lot bigger and made from cast Iron and steel for 80 or so years. Including odd variable pitch gears or cams to rectify shaft velocities. The systems are very well documented in transmission design textbooks. (thats where I learned of them at least).

Could you please clarify “Linkage type CVT “? Are they more commonly known by something else? Perhaps ratcheting? I don’t know anything about paper mills so that didn’t help. “Variable pitch gears” Do you mean non circular gears? i.e. variable pitch diameter?

 

[dw]

Yo man

Yeah, linkage type CVTs are ratcheting type CVTs, They basically convert rotary motion into "linear" motion via an offset crank like a connecting rod and a crankshaft in an engine. A driven lever arm is hooked to a ratchet to rectify back to intermittent rotary motion. As you can imagine, by manipulating connecting link geometry, you can change the degrees output at the ratchet in relation to the rotary input. The variable pitch gears are exactly as you said, non circular gears. By using non circular gears you can shorten the dwell time in between power strokes by speeding up the crank movement on the non-power stroke. There were a couple awesome books from the 60s in the WIT stacks on Transmission design. I read the heck out of them when I was convinced I was going to build my own CVT, first for baja, and soon after thinking about bikes. Actually anyone in Beantown right now could prolly go to the library and find them.

totally unrelated, but 2 Super Hornets just blasted over my house and it was awesome.

Dave

 

[dw]

Damn DW,reading your posts make my head hurt.

hahaahaaha, sorry man

 

[Echo]

Honda does not make snowmobiles...

There are very few snowmobile manufacturers in the world. Polaris, Arctic Cat, Yamaha, Ski-Doo, Lynx (Europe only) and a couple of specialty brands.

There is no way in hell a snowmobile engine can generate 800 horsepower anyway. If you look at the most powerful snowmobile engine currently made, the 900CC triple from Arctic Cat, it makes about 170 horsepower stock. Even if you found a way to keep the cylinders from blowing apart, you couldn't get it over maybe 220 horsepower. And anything over 180 horsepower will blow even a Kevlar track apart anyway.

There is a reason snowmobile companies have been concentrating on lowering weight, lowering center of gravity, and improving ergonomics and suspension. It's because the engines have plenty of power and the CVT clutch system is pretty much perfect. There is absolutely no use for an 800 horsepower engine for a snowmobile, even in drag racing.

 

[buildyourown]

Honda does not make snowmobiles...

There are very few snowmobile manufacturers in the world. Polaris, Arctic Cat, Yamaha, Ski-Doo, Lynx (Europe only) and a couple of specialty brands.

Bombardier

 

[Transcend]

Honda does not make snowmobiles...

There are very few snowmobile manufacturers in the world. Polaris, Arctic Cat, Yamaha, Ski-Doo, Lynx (Europe only) and a couple of specialty brands.

There is no way in hell a snowmobile engine can generate 800 horsepower anyway. If you look at the most powerful snowmobile engine currently made, the 900CC triple from Arctic Cat, it makes about 170 horsepower stock. Even if you found a way to keep the cylinders from blowing apart, you couldn't get it over maybe 220 horsepower. And anything over 180 horsepower will blow even a Kevlar track apart anyway.

There is a reason snowmobile companies have been concentrating on lowering weight, lowering center of gravity, and improving ergonomics and suspension. It's because the engines have plenty of power and the CVT clutch system is pretty much perfect. There is absolutely no use for an 800 horsepower engine for a snowmobile, even in drag racing.

you are correct on all counts. I seem to have been half asleep with my incoherent post. I meant on snowmobiles in general use a CVT (not honda branded ones).

As for HP, i have no idea what i was thinking. Well, i do, i was thinking CC, not HP and now i look like a retard. Must refrain from posting without sufficient caffeine induction.

 

[LukeD]

if an 800 horsepower sled were even possible (which i know it isnt) that would be one hell of a death trap. i doubt anyone could hold on. sounds like fun

 

[dw]

thats what I was thinking!

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Yes indeed, give us a superbox sneak peak or some details!

Don't you have to pay money to get into a gentlemen's club for that kind of thing?

 

[trialsmasta]

The variable pitch gears are exactly as you said, non circular gears. By using non circular gears you can shorten the dwell time in between power strokes by speeding up the crank movement on the non-power stroke.

Thanks for clarifying that, but I don't think those two terms are interchangable. Variable pitch and non circular are two completely different things. I don't see how it would be possible to vary pitch without changing tooth size (rotating element). As far as I know non circular gears all have the same teeth size.

 

[dw]

Thanks for clarifying that, but I don't think those two terms are interchangable. Variable pitch and non circular are two completely different things. I don't see how it would be possible to vary pitch without changing tooth size (rotating element). As far as I know non circular gears all have the same teeth size.

I believe that the actual term is "variable pitch curve", referring to the active pitch radius of the gear itself. That pitch radius changes in noncircular gears. Im going to speculate thats why its called active as opposed to static which would be unchanging. I dont think that I have ever seen a noncircular gear with varying tooth pitch, so I agree, the terminology is a little confusing.

dw

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

I believe that the actual term is "variable pitch curve", referring to the active pitch radius of the gear itself.... pitch radius........ noncircular gears..... static ...... noncircular gear.......varying tooth pitch

dw

Dang it dw,you did it again!

 

[trialsmasta]

I believe that the actual term is "variable pitch curve", referring to the active pitch radius of the gear itself. That pitch radius changes in noncircular gears. Im going to speculate thats why its called active as opposed to static which would be unchanging. I dont think that I have ever seen a noncircular gear with varying tooth pitch, so I agree, the terminology is a little confusing.

dw

I guess eveyone has their own nomenclature, but I've always known them as non circular gears. I was only able to find one reference to "variable pitch curve" on google. But back to variable pitch gears, we had this discussion at work as to if it was even possible. My VP and another senior engineer said they heard of somthing like that but never seen one. I managed to actually find one thanks to google. Ta da, a variable pitch gear.

http://128.146.169.39/Pages/Gear_Collection/Gear_Collection_Frame Pages/mech01.html

 

[dw]

I think one distinction that we have to make is that there is a difference between "pitch radius" and tooth pitch. Thats seems to be where the confusion in nomenclature stems from. I have a book in front of me called the mechanical devices sourcebook which discusses "pitch curve variation" in noncircular gears. I also have a book called the encyclopedic dictionary of gearing somewhere, Ill try to find it and see what it says just for the hell of it.

Dave