[powderboy]

So, I noticed someone selling their La Bruja frameset in the buy and sell section:

All this time, I didn't realize that for all that money ($2500), you're not even getting a true Horst link! I thought they would at least license the Horst link for the cash you're paying...

I was considering buying that frame when I bought my Turner RFX, but I overlooked the linkage and assumed it was the real deal.

The La Bruja is a nice bike, but I'm glad to have a true Horst link...

I guess they're planning on everyone wanting it because of their acclaimed "electric sex" welds. Give me a break!!!

 

[sub6]

Yeah, I've always been FLOORED at how expensive those Bruja frames are. I used to really want one, until I found out how uniformly expensive they are. That $1800 one in the b/s is the cheapest I've ever seen one.

I wouldn't say though, that the lack of a Horst link makes it worthless. There was a pretty good discussion in the BIG Banshee Scream thread in the DH/DS forum a while back; the guy who designed the Banshee participated and did a nice comparison between the Horst Link 4-bar and the walking beam/Turner 4-bar (ironic that Turner now uses the Horst link....) The walking beam apparently does have advantages over the horst, but I can't remember what they are. Of course, the horst has its share of advantages too.

 

[powderboy]

No doubt the Ventana La Bruja is a sweet frame. I'm by no means cutting on them, but their price is insane... and... no Horst.

I've noticed a noticable difference between my non-Horst Rocky Mountain Slayer and my Turner RFX.

I know there's plenty more differences than just the Horst link, but many people swear by the Horst and for $2500, I think they should do everyone the decency and license that technology.

Oh yeah... I'm supposed to want it for the Electric Sex welds... SEX SELLS!!! I guess...

 

[sub6]

This is the post I was talking about.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=349414#post349414

He seems a little biased towards the Turner 4-bar, but whether he's biased because he honestly thinks it's better than the Horst, or just because he used the Turner on the bike he's selling, is a mystery.

 

[sub6]

Originally posted by powderboy
Oh yeah... I'm supposed to want it for the Electric Sex welds... SEX SELLS!!! I guess...

the last time I paid $2500 for a piece of ass was back in.......

....oh wait.......

 

[powderboy]

Hmmm... interesting...

Thanks for the insight on that, Sub6!

That guy's post is lengthy, but has some good info in it. I guess the Turner 4-bar "may" be a bit more durable according to him. But, apparently, he has some connection with Banshee Bikes, so of course he's going to tout the non-Horst link bike.

 

[turd ferguison]

Originally posted by sub6
Yeah, I've always been FLOORED at how expensive those Bruja frames are. I used to really want one, until I found out how uniformly expensive they are. That $1800 one in the b/s is the cheapest I've ever seen one.

I wouldn't say though, that the lack of a Horst link makes it worthless. There was a pretty good discussion in the BIG Banshee Scream thread in the DH/DS forum a while back; the guy who designed the Banshee participated and did a nice comparison between the Horst Link 4-bar and the walking beam/Turner 4-bar (ironic that Turner now uses the Horst link....) The walking beam apparently does have advantages over the horst, but I can't remember what they are. Of course, the horst has its share of advantages too.

ya the guy heypip i think, is really informed on this kinda stuff hopefully i'll get one of his frames sometime soon

 

[KonaDude]

Lack of Horst Link doesn't make it any less bike, it makes it DIFFERENT. Ventanas are expensive because they are VERY well made bikes. Ventana is known for their "electric sex" welds and overall awesome quality and attention to detail. This comes at a price, as usual.

A WELL EXECUTED suspension design is more important than the bike having a particular type of suspension design that's touted as being good. Horst Links are pretty good, but they are nothing better than anything else, and in my opinion were outdone long ago. Marketing seems to prevail again ("Our bike pedals awesome due to the Horst Link.") How about some proof?!?

Maybe email or phone Ventana and find out the reasoning for not using the Horst Link from them.

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by Nobody
Beware of trying to debunk any myths that are so heavily subsidized as the horst link.

For laughs, I have pictures of a certain small manufacturer who had 'horst' links before horst did. He's not in biz anymore, but it was amusing to think that horst became famous for patenting his earlier concepts (1991).

oy.

Ugh... you're right.

I wanna see those pics.

 

[Thylacine]

Theres no question that the Ventanas are, in terms of quality, up there with Ellsworth and Turner. Weld quality is up there with Frank Wadellton and Brian Caulfield as well.

Theres also no question that Sherwood cashes in on Ventanas repuatation, as well he should - he's spend years building it up. Ultimately it will be the people out there buying bikes that will judge if 2500 is too much for a frame like that. I personally dont think it is - you Americans are used to paying bugger all for your goodies. Feel sorry for us Aussies who in the shops would probably fork out pretty close to 6 grand for a frame like that, assuming we could even get one. And let me tell you, 6 grand to us is exactly like you guys spending 6 grand, so 2500 looks like a bargain from where I'm sitting. If I only had to plonk 2500 down for a Ventana or a Turner, I sure as hell wouldnt be crying about the price.

As for the whole "Swingarm bike masquerading as a 4 bar" syndrome, yep, Ventana suffers from that. Turner on the other hand has ALWAYS used a 'Horst Link', unlike what some nonce said earlier. In theory, I'm convinced that not mounting the wheel to the swingarm provides superior breaking performance, but again, how important that is is up to debate. I wouldnt write the Ventana off because of that, but if it was my cash, I'd save the extra money and get an RFX. I cant see where the Ventana is worth the extra money, unless you just like the aesthetics and overall 'Oooooh' factor. Plus, 400 bucks is a LOT of beer!

Its all about balance, ya know

 

[Ventanarama]

Originally posted by KonaDude
A WELL EXECUTED suspension design is more important than the bike having a particular type of suspension design that's touted as being good.

Very well said as always Kona. IMO the whole Horst vs Non issue is blown WAY out of proportion. I've ridden both and I certainly don't have any less fun or feel any slower on my Ventana than comparable bikes with a Horst-Link. The bike pedals fine. The Bruja pedals well for a 6" frame, and is insanely stiff. Some people are just too caught up in the hype! As far as the price of the Bruja goes, I really don't think it's out of line. The additional machining on the rear end for the adjustable wheelbase and axle options in addition to extras like the huge downtube make it more expensive to build compared to most other bikes in it's class. Wether it's worth the money is a pretty subjective question, but I certainly wouldn't count it out just based on the pivot issue.
Larry
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com

 

[powderboy]

I guess my point was that Ventana doesn't pay ANY royalties to anybody to use their suspension design, so why the high prices?

I just don't understand what Ventana is spending all their money on in the production process to have a comparable frame that costs so much. They don't have to pay Specialized for the Horst, they don't spend money on marketing, they don't have very many retailers... See my point?

I guess any Ventana owners should chime in here and back up their bike purchase. Why did you choose a Ventana over another bike that is less expensive, but of equal "WOW" factor?

Who the hell cares about an "electric sex" weld anyway? Honestly, I don't see their welds as being any better than Intense, Ellsworth, Turner, Titus, or others.

I think Ventana makes great bikes, but for the money, I'll stick with an equally superior product like TURNER for considerably less money. Just my $0.02...

 

[Thylacine]

I do think the Ventanas are that extra 5% on other high end FS producers, and I dont think they or people who ride them have to justify their pricing. YOU justify their pricing by putting your money where your mouth is. Buy them or dont - vote with your wallet.

Pricing works by manipulating the want and desires of consumers and is largely based on percieved value and demand. Your average pair of Oakleys cost 4 bucks to make - do you honestly feel that the rest is made up of advertising budget? What exactly are you paying for? Are you happy with Oakley charging so much for their product because some sporting celeb is paid a million bucks a year to wear them? If Ventanas cost 5 grand a frame and sponsored a top team, and saturated the press with gaudy advertising, would that justify their pricing?
Also, do you honestly think having lots of dealers would justify higher prices? Ventana is a small company - whats the point in having 10 dealers in every state when you cant supply that many frames? What you're talking about is the bastion of the mass merchants, not the little guys.
Also, do you think bikes with the horst links have to be that much more expensive than non horst link bikes? The ammortised cost is probably a matter of a couple of dollars per frame, if that ( all depending on how the licencing works ).

The 'wow' factor that you speak of is not based for everyone on what you think is desirable. You can apply your 'rationale' to any strata of the marketplace - Why get brand X when brand Y has an equal 'wow' factor and is 200 bucks cheaper? It comes down largely to the intangeble. For some, the extra attention to detail, uniformity of welds, brand image, heck, even the paint is worth an extra 200 bucks. For some, (apparently) its even enough to buy something based on the fact that Joe McRacer rides one.

So all you Ventana riders out there? You dont have to justify yourself to anyone. Just get on and enjoy - thats what its all about.

( Anyway, if you wanna have a cry about a couple of hundred bucks, just wander over to the Serotta website and have a look at the prices. Mountainbikes are a bargain, especially full suspension frames in general - so I dont have much patience for discussions like this. Sorry 'bout that )

 

[powderboy]

Well... I'd have to agree. Obviously, when you get to certain high-end bikes, money is not so much of an object. You show your support through your wallet. I can respect that.

I guess I didn't do the greatest job of voicing my opinion here. I have spent oodles of money on a high "wow" factor bike. I ride a Turner RFX and it ain't no cheapie cheapie jobbie!

I had an option to buy the Ventana La Bruja, but passed on a few factors, one of which is price. I guess what I'm saying is that even though I will spend alot of money on a bike, I am still price conscious. I was willing to pay for the Turner, but saw no need to pay for the extra intangibles that the Ventana brought.

I guess I'm the kind of guy that would be satisfied with a Porsche instead of a Ferarri then eh?

Lets not even get started with the whole sunglasses markup issues... Oakley, Smith... you name it... their prices are absolutely outrageous... but... I still wear Smith Sliders every day. It all comes down to fulfilling a demand, and Ventana does that. I was simply concerned with their long-term future if they can't convince a legitimate potential customer, like myself, to buy it based on their "electric sex" welds.

 

[Ventanarama]

Well, I can tell you that one factor is probably just higher overhead costs. Ventana builds their frames in-house, Ellsworth and Turner do not. Ventana does everything from cutting and shaping the raw tubing to CNC machining all of the small parts. Only thing they don't do is heat treat & powdercoat (which very few companies do themselves). They not only have to pay for all of that extra machinery, but also the people to run them. Sherwood still does most of the welding himself. Very few of the high-end companies build their own stuff. Farming the frame-building work out to a mass production facility like Anodizing Inc. is much cheaper to do. It's not just hype when people talk about Sherwood's welding. Some of the top companies out there turn to him for fabrication (and design) work (you'd be very surpised who). Within the industry he is very very highly respected by other builders. Does that really make them worth a little more money? Depends on who you ask, to some people it is woth it and to some it isn't. If it isn't to you, then the Turner is a better choice for your needs, and that's ALL that matters, that you are happy with your choice.
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by powderboy
Well... I'd have to agree. Obviously, when you get to certain high-end bikes, money is not so much of an object. You show your support through your wallet. I can respect that.

I guess I didn't do the greatest job of voicing my opinion here. I have spent oodles of money on a high "wow" factor bike. I ride a Turner RFX and it ain't no cheapie cheapie jobbie!

I had an option to buy the Ventana La Bruja, but passed on a few factors, one of which is price. I guess what I'm saying is that even though I will spend alot of money on a bike, I am still price conscious. I was willing to pay for the Turner, but saw no need to pay for the extra intangibles that the Ventana brought.

I guess I'm the kind of guy that would be satisfied with a Porsche instead of a Ferarri then eh?

Lets not even get started with the whole sunglasses markup issues... Oakley, Smith... you name it... their prices are absolutely outrageous... but... I still wear Smith Sliders every day. It all comes down to fulfilling a demand, and Ventana does that. I was simply concerned with their long-term future if they can't convince a legitimate potential customer, like myself, to buy it based on their "electric sex" welds.

There's a lot more to a bike than just welds, and Ventana is one of the companies that is going to go the extra mile to make everything perfect. A lot of these things most people wouldn't notice or realize, but some people like to ride something that they can take pride in, and that displays the capability of man to make beautiful things full of thought and knowledge.

Just my opinion.