no more semi - ex class....?
- Thread starter ÃX
- Start date
you will wear the skin suit. you love the skin suit.
What is this for? Norba National races? ...do they even still have those?
:biggrin:
It will only matter if they actually enforce the rules/upgrades etc. Otherwise it will just be a different name for the same ol BS. I for one hope they do some radical changes and adopt the UCI's ways of doing things or make them better. UCI points should be awarded to all races on the National Series and the courses should be on real mountains. I like th idea of an east series and a west series but I can see why that could be bad. Right now there just needs to be a change, and a real one.
I just like the idea of Canadians in skin suits...
Way to go usa, get rid of world accepted standard categories (sport, ex, elite) and bring in some ridiculous system. Sweet.
you expected more?
the new system will have 2 am classes broken by age groups and an elite(pro) class.
very good move in my opinion
very good move in my opinion
Sounds excellent.
Wonder what the fall out (whining) will be when people catch wind of this.....
I'm looking foward to moving back to Amatuer.
Alex et al,
Do not look at this as "Norba is taking something away from me" but instead as "Norba is increasing the level of competition". This is not something that is being cast upon you by "the roadies" but instead has been over 2 years in thought, analysis, and discussion by many, many people connected with the sport. The new system will bolster the strength of the pro category and make for more competitive, aged-based racing in the amateur ranks. This is a positive for you as a racer and for the development of racing talent in America.
The semi-pro class will indeed be eliminated. It has not served it's purpose as being a U23 breeding ground and feeder to the pro ranks. What it has become is a dumping ground for guys who too fast for "expert" but never fast enough for "pro's". This is not fair to these racers and complicates in general.
Along with this, tighter restrictions will be in place and enforced for the pro category. If you want to have the title "pro" you have to make the commitment in more ways that just buying the license. A strong professional category will bring higher profile events to the US (ie. more events with UCI points) and increase the strength of American racers globally.
Regarding the naming of categories, numbers (or letters) are far simpler than names. This has worked on the road, cross, and collegiate sides of cycling for a while now with very good success. Categories can be added or subtracted as needed as the sport ebbs and flows with membership.
By reorganizing the categories everyone will indeed be moved into new categories. This is not an "upgrade" or "downgrade" but a restructuring for everyone's benefit. The old "beginner/sport/expert/ semi-pro/pro" model is not conducive these shifts as it boxes everyone into outdated constraints.
Expect the numbered categories to roughly follow along the lines of the globally used standards. Don't expect to see 5 categories though; especially not in the gravity disciplines. Honestly ask yourselves, do we need this many categories? There is certainly a middle ground between the current system and just a "Pro/Amateur" system.
Along with all of this will be a focus towards the National Racing Calendar and a new points and rankings system. This whole package of events, scoring, and categories should reinforce itself and help rebuild the foundation of the sport.
With all of this said, the details of everything are not yet finalized, hence the reason some of the points might seem vague or hazy right now. If anyone wants to personally discuss this I encourage you to PM me and I will pass you my number. I personally have talked to dozens of riders, promoters, team managers, and coaches about this reorganization. Everyone has their nuances or sticky points but there has been an overwhelming consensus that these are needed steps.
-ska todd
Do not look at this as "Norba is taking something away from me" but instead as "Norba is increasing the level of competition". This is not something that is being cast upon you by "the roadies" but instead has been over 2 years in thought, analysis, and discussion by many, many people connected with the sport. The new system will bolster the strength of the pro category and make for more competitive, aged-based racing in the amateur ranks. This is a positive for you as a racer and for the development of racing talent in America.
The semi-pro class will indeed be eliminated. It has not served it's purpose as being a U23 breeding ground and feeder to the pro ranks. What it has become is a dumping ground for guys who too fast for "expert" but never fast enough for "pro's". This is not fair to these racers and complicates in general.
Along with this, tighter restrictions will be in place and enforced for the pro category. If you want to have the title "pro" you have to make the commitment in more ways that just buying the license. A strong professional category will bring higher profile events to the US (ie. more events with UCI points) and increase the strength of American racers globally.
Regarding the naming of categories, numbers (or letters) are far simpler than names. This has worked on the road, cross, and collegiate sides of cycling for a while now with very good success. Categories can be added or subtracted as needed as the sport ebbs and flows with membership.
By reorganizing the categories everyone will indeed be moved into new categories. This is not an "upgrade" or "downgrade" but a restructuring for everyone's benefit. The old "beginner/sport/expert/ semi-pro/pro" model is not conducive these shifts as it boxes everyone into outdated constraints.
Expect the numbered categories to roughly follow along the lines of the globally used standards. Don't expect to see 5 categories though; especially not in the gravity disciplines. Honestly ask yourselves, do we need this many categories? There is certainly a middle ground between the current system and just a "Pro/Amateur" system.
Along with all of this will be a focus towards the National Racing Calendar and a new points and rankings system. This whole package of events, scoring, and categories should reinforce itself and help rebuild the foundation of the sport.
With all of this said, the details of everything are not yet finalized, hence the reason some of the points might seem vague or hazy right now. If anyone wants to personally discuss this I encourage you to PM me and I will pass you my number. I personally have talked to dozens of riders, promoters, team managers, and coaches about this reorganization. Everyone has their nuances or sticky points but there has been an overwhelming consensus that these are needed steps.
-ska todd
right on Todd, thanks for the info/clarification
The career sport racers, aka sandbaggers, will have their automatic podium taken away.
Last edited:
yeah, a conformation was what i was looking for really.
i am not upset with this, i am all for progression and
closer racing for all ages and abilities! i think this new system
will be better for this.
Never understood why there were so many classes and I've always thought that the age brackets were broken down too small. Obviously separate the men from the boys and older guys.
Men 19-34
Elite
Expert
Amateur
Beginner (3 race max in this category until required upgrade)
Juniors <18
Junior Elite (racers compete at the same time as men Elite)
Junior
Beginner Juinior
Masters 35+
Elite Masters (also race with rest of elite cat)
Amateur Masters
Beginner Masters
I don't know, it seems incredibly simple to me. Stop fostering to every single difference in age and actually give a crap about regulating who is in what category.
Men 19-34
Elite
Expert
Amateur
Beginner (3 race max in this category until required upgrade)
Juniors <18
Junior Elite (racers compete at the same time as men Elite)
Junior
Beginner Juinior
Masters 35+
Elite Masters (also race with rest of elite cat)
Amateur Masters
Beginner Masters
I don't know, it seems incredibly simple to me. Stop fostering to every single difference in age and actually give a crap about regulating who is in what category.
Pssh your riding days are numbered "daddy"Zark, you better watch out! With ire coming to Expert, I'm going to trickle down to Sport. Cya at Tehachapi!
I'll be training while your changing diapers!
SB Bike Fest this weekend, you coming up?
I want to so bad! But I gotta go shop for a crib and carseat. lol, seriously!Pssh your riding days are numbered "daddy"
I'll be training while your changing diapers!
SB Bike Fest this weekend, you coming up?
"The semi-pro class will indeed be eliminated. It has not served it's purpose as being a U23 breeding ground and feeder to the pro ranks. What it has become is a dumping ground for guys who too fast for "expert" but never fast enough for "pro's". This is not fair to these racers and complicates in general."
I understand the need to regroup to be on a international level but the statement above confuses me? Too fast for EX but to slow for Pro, so Simi pro.... Seams to make sense.
What is unfair about it?
I understand the need to regroup to be on a international level but the statement above confuses me? Too fast for EX but to slow for Pro, so Simi pro.... Seams to make sense.
What is unfair about it?
What has happened is that semi-pro isn't feeding the pro ranks, people literally get stuck in that class. I'm not saying their idea is the solution, but I think this is why they are trying to restructure it.
reason #5467657 I'm racing mx again now
Ironically enough, that's the same # of classes they run at most MX tracks.
Gotta love 20 minutes of track time & 14 hours of sitting around in the pits.
Most local races do not seperate pro and semi-pro anyways. Who needs it. In my class (expert 30-39) the fast guys are not moving up anyways. I will be at the back of the pack no matter what happens.
ire is on the right track here. Many riders got dumped into semi and the class stagnated. Shifting everyone into more appropriate categories will by and large increase the level of competition.
This is a general reorganization of the categories as a whole, not just the elimination of one cat or the creation of another. Semi-pro never really served it's intended purpose. We need to increase the level of competition (and thus participation) among the amateur ranks as well as tidy up and strengthen the pro cat.
Where everyone will slide in is still being parsed out. The concerns of many different types of racers, in many areas of the country, in several disciplines is all being carefully balanced. None of this is being done on-th-fly or without careful thought. The overall goal is to better the competition, increase participation, and create a better caliber of racer and race event in the US.
-ska todd
This is a general reorganization of the categories as a whole, not just the elimination of one cat or the creation of another. Semi-pro never really served it's intended purpose. We need to increase the level of competition (and thus participation) among the amateur ranks as well as tidy up and strengthen the pro cat.
Where everyone will slide in is still being parsed out. The concerns of many different types of racers, in many areas of the country, in several disciplines is all being carefully balanced. None of this is being done on-th-fly or without careful thought. The overall goal is to better the competition, increase participation, and create a better caliber of racer and race event in the US.
-ska todd
Though I agree with the elimination of the Semi-Slow class. I have no great confidence in the NORBA BoD implementation. It would be nice as a member to see these proposed changes before they are voted on by the BoD.
I agree that among many items that need to be reviewed in the current NORBA rules, classes are an issue. But I also believe that there is far too much latitude given to Officials/Promoters to interpret the rules. This create far too much angst as how one rule is interpreted at a race and can be interpreted totally differently at another race. They also need to hire a paralegal or technical editor to review their rules each year. Some of the sloppiest, most inconsistent writing I have ever seen.
I like Inclag's classes. Simple and to the point. -T
I agree that among many items that need to be reviewed in the current NORBA rules, classes are an issue. But I also believe that there is far too much latitude given to Officials/Promoters to interpret the rules. This create far too much angst as how one rule is interpreted at a race and can be interpreted totally differently at another race. They also need to hire a paralegal or technical editor to review their rules each year. Some of the sloppiest, most inconsistent writing I have ever seen.
I like Inclag's classes. Simple and to the point. -T
I don't disagree with the new possible format. . . .but I think the changes that need to be made could be more carefully designed.
There needs to be a feeder program to Pro. I've seen too many Jr. X go straight to Pro and lose their mojo. Semi-Pro class should exist, and it should be limited to 19-29 year-olds for a minimum of 2 years. Very specific move-up requirements. Don't meeet them after 2 years, move to "expert" level class. And yes, there is a need for a Women's Semi-Pro class to help prepare them for Pro/International champion. More woman would compete if they had solid competition. Oh, and Semi-Pro should have a qualifying run; how better to prepare for Pro then to have a qualifying run and learn how to race under time better. And, require Semi-Pros to buy a Pro license. I bet that would weed out many lurkers when they have to pay $150 for a membership instead of $60.
Vet Pro is needed. 30+. Could be argued for 35+ plus, but if you are not Pro by the age of 30, then 99% possibility you will never be. Look at every other 2-wheeled discipline and it exists, and is profitable. It keeps older people with $ racing and interested. Look at BMX, look at Moto. Under the new program, this will essentially be the case, but how much better would racing be when you are racing against your fastest peers. The MSC guys are promoting a Vet Pro class for 35+ and it is a ball of fun. Those races are the only reason I am racing this year. I was disappointed to see only 7 registered at Angel Fire after around 15 last year. I saw that several racers decided to race Expert so they could be on top of the podium instead of having fun and racing the best of the best in their age group. Bummer! Also, I guarantee you there will be many passes made on the DH course if all 30+ year olds are grouped together and no seeding run.
People will always race a class down if the sanctioning body is not tracking and requiring move-ups. The ABA and NBL does it. The software is there! How come the national federation of MTB cannot do it, especially when it's own BMX division does it?
Lastly, "National" races need to limit the categories of racers. Expert and Pros only at National events. Build up the courses so you don't have to worry about non-skilled riders getting over the obstacles. Bigger obstacles = better spectating = TV possibilities.
There needs to be a feeder program to Pro. I've seen too many Jr. X go straight to Pro and lose their mojo. Semi-Pro class should exist, and it should be limited to 19-29 year-olds for a minimum of 2 years. Very specific move-up requirements. Don't meeet them after 2 years, move to "expert" level class. And yes, there is a need for a Women's Semi-Pro class to help prepare them for Pro/International champion. More woman would compete if they had solid competition. Oh, and Semi-Pro should have a qualifying run; how better to prepare for Pro then to have a qualifying run and learn how to race under time better. And, require Semi-Pros to buy a Pro license. I bet that would weed out many lurkers when they have to pay $150 for a membership instead of $60.
Vet Pro is needed. 30+. Could be argued for 35+ plus, but if you are not Pro by the age of 30, then 99% possibility you will never be. Look at every other 2-wheeled discipline and it exists, and is profitable. It keeps older people with $ racing and interested. Look at BMX, look at Moto. Under the new program, this will essentially be the case, but how much better would racing be when you are racing against your fastest peers. The MSC guys are promoting a Vet Pro class for 35+ and it is a ball of fun. Those races are the only reason I am racing this year. I was disappointed to see only 7 registered at Angel Fire after around 15 last year. I saw that several racers decided to race Expert so they could be on top of the podium instead of having fun and racing the best of the best in their age group. Bummer! Also, I guarantee you there will be many passes made on the DH course if all 30+ year olds are grouped together and no seeding run.
People will always race a class down if the sanctioning body is not tracking and requiring move-ups. The ABA and NBL does it. The software is there! How come the national federation of MTB cannot do it, especially when it's own BMX division does it?
Lastly, "National" races need to limit the categories of racers. Expert and Pros only at National events. Build up the courses so you don't have to worry about non-skilled riders getting over the obstacles. Bigger obstacles = better spectating = TV possibilities.
Ska Todd, please clarify. Have the class structures been agreed upon? Or is it agreed upon in principle? The actual structure is yet to be hashed out?
I'm not sure I agree with Inclags suggested changes to the classes of beginner, sport & Expert classes.
I dont see how this encourages kids younger than 12yrs old coming in to the sport when they have to race against 18yr olds.
I also don't think it's right for a 34yr old to race against a 19yr old.
I can see why doing away with Semi makes sense. It reminds me of A Pro "Lifers" as they call it in BMX.
I'm not sure I agree with Inclags suggested changes to the classes of beginner, sport & Expert classes.
I dont see how this encourages kids younger than 12yrs old coming in to the sport when they have to race against 18yr olds.
I also don't think it's right for a 34yr old to race against a 19yr old.
I can see why doing away with Semi makes sense. It reminds me of A Pro "Lifers" as they call it in BMX.
Why? I'm a lot faster at 29 than I was at 19. I plan on being even faster when I'm 34.
At our local races, the fast times for 30-39 are as good or better than 19-29, just fewer racers.
Wow...I feel like I'm being told to quit racing or slow down. I'm Semi-Pro and without being in that category, you wouldn't catch me at a National or large scale race. Why? Because practice in Expert Class SUCKS! This sport isn't motocross where if there is a 48 year old expert on the track with a 30 year old expert, you can just take the outside line and blow by. I saw Amateur practice at the Open and it looked like a parade lap coming out onto the fire road. Riders spaced 30 feet apart one after another like cattle to water.
In Semi-Pro, I'm 35, can ride the big stuff, can keep up with pros, not tie up anybody, take full runs, scope lines with peers and get in as many runs as possible. Come race time, I go head to head with guys all on the same skill level with me.
Put me in expert and I get to spend 2 hours with my tire behind 10 other guys waiting to ride a 30 yard section of roots, not pedal a lick, coast, brake, stop, repeat.
Understand that I have no beef with the skill level in Expert, but the bottom line is me and the majority of my riding buddies have NO business in Expert Class where we'd be called Sandbaggers. And I'm not pretending to be a pro either. You can call Semi-Pro a wanna be class all you like, but bottom line is it is a darn big pool of very fast riders with a select few looking to move up to Pro. Take away Semi-pro at a large event, and you can have it. I'll go shuttle.
At the US Open, with 150 guys in Pro, we had one choke point at the off camber slab, but by in large, we weren't tying each other up. The horror stories I heard of in AM though made me sick.
But by all means, move categories all you want. Until you make a legitimate pro purse a requirement for those promoters with all their fancy timing and brand new hats and shirts, the Nats are dead to me and all those other fanboys. It's a joke until the pros get paid...and not just gas money. I'm talking top 20 pro payout with 20th able to cover the bulk of their airfare.
Anybody besides me remember a payout that looke like this:
1. 10k
2 6k
3. 5k
4 2k
5. 1k
6. 700
7. 600
8. 500
9. 400
10. 300
11-20. 250 each.
Honestly Todd, I'm a monster proponent of Nationals, but not til the pros get their jobs back. 90% of DHers will never see the pro podium or have a shot at getting paid at a Nat. But they all "aspire" or dream of it...and to see their heroes and idols get squat is a disservice and slap in the face of that other 90%. They won't support a series that won't pay their pros.
In Semi-Pro, I'm 35, can ride the big stuff, can keep up with pros, not tie up anybody, take full runs, scope lines with peers and get in as many runs as possible. Come race time, I go head to head with guys all on the same skill level with me.
Put me in expert and I get to spend 2 hours with my tire behind 10 other guys waiting to ride a 30 yard section of roots, not pedal a lick, coast, brake, stop, repeat.
Understand that I have no beef with the skill level in Expert, but the bottom line is me and the majority of my riding buddies have NO business in Expert Class where we'd be called Sandbaggers. And I'm not pretending to be a pro either. You can call Semi-Pro a wanna be class all you like, but bottom line is it is a darn big pool of very fast riders with a select few looking to move up to Pro. Take away Semi-pro at a large event, and you can have it. I'll go shuttle.
At the US Open, with 150 guys in Pro, we had one choke point at the off camber slab, but by in large, we weren't tying each other up. The horror stories I heard of in AM though made me sick.
But by all means, move categories all you want. Until you make a legitimate pro purse a requirement for those promoters with all their fancy timing and brand new hats and shirts, the Nats are dead to me and all those other fanboys. It's a joke until the pros get paid...and not just gas money. I'm talking top 20 pro payout with 20th able to cover the bulk of their airfare.
Anybody besides me remember a payout that looke like this:
1. 10k
2 6k
3. 5k
4 2k
5. 1k
6. 700
7. 600
8. 500
9. 400
10. 300
11-20. 250 each.
Honestly Todd, I'm a monster proponent of Nationals, but not til the pros get their jobs back. 90% of DHers will never see the pro podium or have a shot at getting paid at a Nat. But they all "aspire" or dream of it...and to see their heroes and idols get squat is a disservice and slap in the face of that other 90%. They won't support a series that won't pay their pros.
Ok you are. That's great. I commend you. 19yr olds tend to have alot less to lose if they crash and break themselves. 30+ guys tend to have more to lose. We tend to have better jobs, we have kids, wives, etc. Not to mention healing times seem to get longer after 30. But I think the Majority of us aren't going to get faster. I'm gonna be 37 this year and I'll be racing the 35+. Injuries are starting to take a toll on the body and pushing myself as to keep up with a 15yr younger person is a tall task.
with the tbb national contract ending this year and USAC pushing the Gravity Calender Races, I don't think you'll have to worry about Nationals. Semi Pro and sport is a level not needed considering number of riders. If your not fast enough to be a pro then race in the highest catagory in your age group, simple. Automatic move up and move downs from class to class should be mandatory and enforced up to the pro level.
I'm with Bizutch on this one, the only reason I ever attended large races was because the Semis got to practice with the pros and avoid the long lines. I had aspirations at one point to go pro, but I've since turned to focus on turning pro at XC. I'm an upper half semi pro racer in DH, slightly better than expert, not good enough to be pro. IF they went to a system similar to road, the upgrade rules are a lot more stringent and it would be hard to have so many expert racers, thus solving the overcrowding problem. I know many guys who have never raced, that will start at Expert because they like the course better
lthumbsdown:
I guess i don't understand the desire to get rid of Semi. It is a very large catagory out here and very few of the riders belong in Expert.
If you are going to make Pro very hard to get into, you better downgrade 2/3 of the expert class.
Then what? You have a bunch of decently skilled "amateur" riders who get to ride and race a dumbed down course lumped in with riders who have raced 3 races so they can't be "beginners" any more.
I also don't see the problem with riders "camping out" in a class. If you're competative, what's the problem? Some of us will only ever be "semi-pro" fast. Should we not be allowed to race?
What's the problem with the current system again? If anything, loosen up the age catagories to make them bigger.
If you are going to make Pro very hard to get into, you better downgrade 2/3 of the expert class.
Then what? You have a bunch of decently skilled "amateur" riders who get to ride and race a dumbed down course lumped in with riders who have raced 3 races so they can't be "beginners" any more.
I also don't see the problem with riders "camping out" in a class. If you're competative, what's the problem? Some of us will only ever be "semi-pro" fast. Should we not be allowed to race?
What's the problem with the current system again? If anything, loosen up the age catagories to make them bigger.
True about the course. Where the big issues come into play is that in DH, where you have tons of riders who can and want to "ride" the big stuff, it's the Semi-Pros and Pros who actually "race" the big stuff.... IF they went to a system similar to road, the upgrade rules are a lot more stringent and it would be hard to have so many expert racers, thus solving the overcrowding problem. I know many guys who have never raced, that will start at Expert because they like the course better
You get 150-200 riders signed up who have the technical skills to get down the course, but roughly 80-100 who can get down it at race paces. Add the reduced practice time that goes along with less than pro practice and you get a cluster. I don't even want to delve into the time limit shaft you get in less than pro practice either.
If they did a system like road I think they would shift the majority of the experts into Cat 3 with the semis going into Cat 2 and some fast semis and slow pros going into Cat 1. I know everyone hates road, but the categories they use make sense for racing in general