[ZHendo]

Gents,

My RP23 has been nothing but trouble lately, and it hasn't ever performed that great on my Nomad anyways so I think its time for a new one. I have a few options and I wanted to know what people think might be best.

1) Push tune on current RP23 - Push says they've never been able to get the RP23 tuned quite right for the Nomad, so this doesn't seem ideal, but it is the cheapest way out.

2) Push'd Monarch Plus
3) Push'd Vivid
4) Push'd RC4, Vanilla, etc
5) New Push Nomad linkage with Monarch or Vivid - most expensive, but the guy I talked to at Push says its a pretty impressive upgrade in performance
6) Other?

Let me know what you guys think, Push said that getting shocks tuned for the new Nomads has been extremely difficult, and coils supposedly perform terribly with the stock linkage. I'm just looking for something that'll perform well for my downhill-heavy style of riding.

 

[frorider]

Luc seems pretty impressed with the push linkage + coil shock.

I think Darren posted that a pushed monarch was the closest thing to coil performance. Think it was the monarch AM. A good thread on mtbr, on the sant cruz forum I think.

 

[jackalope]

I have a hard time believing you couldn't get a CCDB to work on the Nomad, but that certainly would be an expensive option. Another thought would be the Vivid Air, and failing that, the Monarch + linkage sounds intriguing. However, it just sounds odd that you would need a whole new linkage to get the bike to work right.

 

[Ridge_Rider]

I've been running the new RP23 with Adaptive Logic and it's been much better than the old RP23 I started with:

 

[ZHendo]

I've been running the new RP23 with Adaptive Logic and it's been much better than the old RP23 I started with:

Much better in what sense? All the adaptive logic really provides is adjustable low speed compression...I feel like the shortcomings of my current shock amount to more than that.

Also, I'm intrigued by the CCDB. Does anyone have any experience with one of these on a Nomad C? I think I can get one for a decent price if it's the best option

 

[Ridge_Rider]

Much better in what sense? All the adaptive logic really provides is adjustable low speed compression...I feel like the shortcomings of my current shock amount to more than that.

Off the bat the shock was a lot smoother and more senstive to small bumps than the 2011 RP23. To me the compression settings are more noticeable throughout the range than the old shock. I went with a different tune, medium vs the light (which was stock) and this seems to work better on sharp edge hits and makes the shock feel better throughout the entire range.

This is my 3rd RP23 on a Nomad (I also had an RC4 on for 6 months on my old Aluminum Nomad 2 as well), for the type of riding I do the RP works best for me. The RC4 was great, but it took me a while to dial it in and at the end of day, I just didn't think it was THAT much better...

 

[Acadian]

I have a hard time believing you couldn't get a CCDB to work on the Nomad, but that certainly would be an expensive option. Another thought would be the Vivid Air, and failing that, the Monarch + linkage sounds intriguing. However, it just sounds odd that you would need a whole new linkage to get the bike to work right.

it depends what you are after. The Push link transforms the Nomad into a Mini DH bike. First, it will sit much deeper into it's travel, which means the bike will immediately feel slacker and lower. Just like the original Nomad, it will not work amazingly well in the chunk as the travel is very supple on the top end then ramps up nicely at the end of the travel. On the downside, the link also brings back the nasty pedal feedback that the original Nomad had (mostly in the smaller gears, so if you run a single ring up front you have nothing to worry about).

in a nutshell - if you're that concerned about pedaling efficiency in the granny, if you don't have any mega fast DH trails, and if you generally use your nomad for mellow XC rides, this link isn't for you.

My typical rides have between 2 and 5k + of climbing and some climbs are pretty steep. I run flat pedals therefore I need those smaller gears (sorry I don't have Mark Weir's legs). Unfortunately I couldn't deal with how the bike pedaled and the stock link didn't suit my riding style - so I sold the bike.

 

[jackalope]

^^

Good explanation, although I still have to wonder why a bike with 6.3" of travel and all mountain credentials doesn't work particularly well in the "chunk". If that is the case, it seems to have a distinct disadvantage compared to other offerings in the class such as an Enduro, Rune, Covert, Reign X, etc...as they don't appear to have the same "either or" limitations.

You mentioned that the stock linkage makes the bike great for pedaling and mellow XC trails, but a Nomad seems like overkill if that's all you had in mind, even if its only 6 lbs or so. FWIW, I actually had a Nomad Mk1 and generally liked the bike (PUSH'd DHX coil), but wanted something lower, slacker, and with a shorter HT. Hooray for my Spitfire!

 

[Acadian]

^^

Good explanation, although I still have to wonder why a bike with 6.3" of travel and all mountain creditentials doesn't work particularly well in the "chunk". If that is the case, it seems to have a distinct disadvantage compared to other offerings in the class such as an Enduro, Rune, Covert, Reign X, etc...as they don't appear to have the same "either or" limitations.

You mentioned that the stock linkage makes the bike great for pedaling and mellow XC trails, but a Nomad seems like overkill if that's all you had in mind, even if its only 6 lbs or so. FWIW, I actually had a Nomad Mk1 and generally liked the bike (PUSH'd DHX coil), but wanted something lower, slacker, and with a shorter HT. Hooray for my Spitfire!

I've never really mapped, or even paid attention, to the leverage curve of a VPP2 Nomad (with the stock link). My observations are purely based on lots of saddle time with different shocks. Out of all the stock shocks out there, I would have to say that the Nomad worked best with a progressive shock - like the Fox RC4 or Monarch.

With any other shock, I didn't feel like the bike was very compliant on small bumps and as soon as the going got rough, it was easily blowing through the last few inches of its travel. Heck, even with a super light spring on a vivid (which was specifically tuned to the Nomad2) I was barely getting the appropriate sag…but because of what felt like a falling rate at the end, I was blowing through the travel in no time on hard hits.

The bike did pedal well tho, I will give it that....

 

[Jeremy R]

All of this sounds like an awful lot of work to try to deturd that bike's suspension.

 

[Acadian]

All of this sounds like an awful lot of work to try to deturd that bike's suspension.

pretty much.

All this made me realize that single pivots, albeit not perfect, are simple, fun and for the most part low maintenance. Depending on where the main pivot is located they tend to pedal well (as long as you don't try to pedal in the chunk) and works really well in pretty much any terrain. Combined that with a great geometry and you have a pretty fun bike in your hands.

I really, truly love my Orange bikes....I've never had bikes stay in my stable this long.

 

[jackalope]

Agreed about SPs. I switched from a V-10 to a TR-450, and love the simplicity and predictability of the suspension. Btw, you have a Blood or Alpine?

I ended up putting a CCDB on my V-10 to deal with some of the suspension "idiosyncracies", but it definitely took awhile to dial in a good tune. Thus, I still think you could get a CCDB to work well with the Nomad.

 

[Acadian]

Agreed about SPs. I switched from a V-10 to a TR-450, and love the simplicity and predictability of the suspension. Btw, you have a Blood or Alpine?

I ended up putting a CCDB on my V-10 to deal with some of the suspension "idiosyncracies", but it definitely took awhile to dial in a good tune. Thus, I still think you could get a CCDB to work well with the Nomad.

I have a Five and Alpine.

Unfortunately I never got a chance to try a CCDB on the Nomad - I'm sure it would work well, but I'm not convinced it would deal well with HS hits. See my Orange bikes are very linear and found that a shock like an RC4 work best on those bikes (over the CCDB). Same for air shocks - you need High Compression tunes and almost have to fill in the air can with Kidwoo Blubber 4000 to make it work.

 

[-BB-]

I've never really mapped, or even paid attention, to the leverage curve of a VPP2 Nomad (with the stock link). My observations are purely based on lots of saddle time with different shocks. Out of all the stock shocks out there, I would have to say that the Nomad worked best with a progressive shock - like the Fox RC4 or Monarch.

With any other shock, I didn't feel like the bike was very compliant on small bumps and as soon as the going got rough, it was easily blowing through the last few inches of its travel. Heck, even with a super light spring on a vivid (which was specifically tuned to the Nomad2) I was barely getting the appropriate sag…but because of what felt like a falling rate at the end, I was blowing through the travel in no time on hard hits.

The bike did pedal well tho, I will give it that....

I've heard from my time on the Banshee boards that the newer PR23s (the one with the boost valve) are not working as well as the older RP23s on frames that have more linear to falling rate suspension. As you said, they jsut blow through the travel too easily.

I've been using my pushed RP23 from 2005 (originally had it on my MK3) on my spitfire and I love it.

 

[norbar]

I've heard from my time on the Banshee boards that the newer PR23s (the one with the boost valve) are not working as well as the older RP23s on frames that have more linear to falling rate suspension. As you said, they jsut blow through the travel too easily.

I've been using my pushed RP23 from 2005 (originally had it on my MK3) on my spitfire and I love it.

Ghetto air can reduction should help with blowing through the travel but fox is silly for making yet another shock that does that.

 

[ZHendo]

It blows my mind that such a highly developed frame is like this is such a problem with common shocks. I'm going to go with the Push Monarch Plus I think, and potentially use the Push link as well. I want to consult Push about it, but apparently Darren from Push is on a Nomad and has gotten it pretty dialed.

 

[tacubaya]

Surprised no one has said

AVYYYYYYYY

 

[chuckie]

new BOS air shock?

 

[SylentK]

Surprised no one has said

AVYYYYYYYY

 

[ZHendo]

As of right now it looks like I'm going to end up with a coil and the Push upper link. Due to some personal connections, I have access to a CCDB that I can get for the same price as the Push'd Vivid Team Edition. The Vivid Team Edition has all sorts of extra adjustments on it over the standard Vivid as well as a custom tune, whereas the CCDB is just insanely adjustable. Which is the better shock?

 

[tacubaya]

As of right now it looks like I'm going to end up with a coil and the Push upper link. Due to some personal connections, I have access to a CCDB that I can get for the same price as the Push'd Vivid Team Edition. The Vivid Team Edition has all sorts of extra adjustments on it over the standard Vivid as well as a custom tune, whereas the CCDB is just insanely adjustable. Which is the better shock?

I'd go with the Vivid.

1) PUSHed = Customized for you.
2) You can service it at home.
3) Lots of adjustments.

 

[ZHendo]

Probably will end up with the Vivid, I think it might be cheaper all in anyways...i'm stoked to get it though, the nomad c is my favorite frame i've had and is very composed on smoother trails, but the RP23 just doesn't have the mid and end stroke support to blast through super tech sections. on another note, just to give some props to SC, i got an email this morning from josh offering a loaner shock while mine gets repaired by fox - that's awesome CS.

 

[frorider]

this week I ordered a push 'AM version' (i.e. no propedal, but a 10 click LSC dial) of the monarch RT for my nomad2.

i have two other bikes w/ coil shocks that are pretty dialed for the descents, so i'm not looking to convert this AM bike into a mini-DH per se.

guys at PUSH couldn't stop raving about how well RS has stepped up the game regarding air shocks in 2011. the non-piggyback Monarch has a significantly higher damping oil volume than the Float, and several other advantages..

 

[ZHendo]

Thought things over and decided - I'm getting the Push'd Vivid Team Edition with their custom link. It's going to add quite a bit of weight but I'm willing to sacrifice for the added performance. According to Push, the link doesn't change the pedaling characteristics which means the bike will still climb when I need it to, but apparently the leverage curve gives the bike better small bump while keeping good mid stroke support and ending with a nice rising rate, which is exactly what I'm looking for. I'll report back once I get everything, so stoked

 

[ZHendo]

Final purchases were made, and decision changed once again. Push hooked me up with a link, but they're a bit behind on production for both the Monarch Plus and Vivid Team Edition - roughly 3 weeks, possibly more before they even get the parts in was what I was told. After some discussion with Darren from Push (he rides a Nomad C too), I decided to pick up an RC4. There were various reasons - the RC4 already has the adjusters that the Vivid only has after the Team Edition rebuild, it's lighter, I trust Fox quality, its readily available right now, and most importantly, Push is going to offer an RC4 rebuild service fairly soon. According to Darren, the RC4 will run awesome with the new link, and then when it times come to get my first service, I can just get it Push'd. Awesome.

 

[nolson450]

So RidgeRider, the RC4 wasn't THAT much better? I currently have the 2011 RP23 on my NomadC, but after riding my DH bike this weekend, I feel like putting on a RC4 will give it that planted, lower in the travel, DH bike feel that's oh so fun.

My thoughts are that I can buy the RC4 with Ti Coil, to make the boring XC rides more fun. Then I'll still have the RP 23 for long/ fast XC rides if needed. I think I'm a coil for life type guy, and while this RP23 is good, just doesn't cut the mustard. I am loving the 2011 Float 36 on the front though, installing SKF seals next...

 

[frorider]

realized i never followed up w/ a ride review...bottom line, the push monarch RT/AM has been very impressive on this bike. so much so that I'm no longer considering selling it. I put quite a few miles on it this autumn on the chunkier local rides. and for $300 was a no brainer.

 

[Ridge_Rider]

So RidgeRider, the RC4 wasn't THAT much better? I currently have the 2011 RP23 on my NomadC, but after riding my DH bike this weekend, I feel like putting on a RC4 will give it that planted, lower in the travel, DH bike feel that's oh so fun.

My thoughts are that I can buy the RC4 with Ti Coil, to make the boring XC rides more fun. Then I'll still have the RP 23 for long/ fast XC rides if needed. I think I'm a coil for life type guy, and while this RP23 is good, just doesn't cut the mustard. I am loving the 2011 Float 36 on the front though, installing SKF seals next...

nolson450, no the RC4 was not head and shoulders better than an RP23, I 'm thinking about getting a Push link and giving it another shot though...

 

[abbike18]

I have been having the same issues with mine. I have a 2012 frame with a 2012 RP23, and im 200 lbs. I am running 30% sag, and found that the bike was not that supple on the small rapid stuff, but then it would blow through travel on stuff that was medium sized single hits (random 2 foot drop in trail, etc). I got a set of the Fox volume adjusters and put the biggest one in there (it came stock with the medium spacer installed) to try to ramp things up a bit, but still the same problem.

Although it did feel surprisingly smooth if you were to jump the bike into some rapid square edge stuff - mostly because landing got the bike into that latter part of the travel where it was really soft. But that is besides the point.

My riding is pretty All Mountain - I pedal up so I can bomb the down. I do some lift access and race Enduro/Super D. I am thinking of going with the DHX RC4 on the stock link (I want to keep the pedaling of the stock link). Anyone have experience with the stock link and a DHX RC4 and think it would make it a bit more plush early stroke and not blow through that 60-90% travel zone? Any advice is appreciated.

PS - Anyone ever order a DHX from Fox grassroots? Does it come with a spring or will I need to get my own?

 

[92SE-R]

vector air hlr

 

[phycoref]

A good friend of mine has the PUSH link with an RC4 and loves it!

 

[ZHendo]

I have had the RC4 with the Push link for a while now so I can give some info about it. Basically, the RC4 with the link is the best imaginable option for this bike, at least in my opinion. As you can see earlier in the thread, I was struggling with the same issues as you are with the RP23. I did a TON of research before I made the big purchase, and to be honest I wasn't too keen on replacing my stock link. Santa Cruz explained that the leverage curve of the bike is designed for an air shock, and though many people have installed coil shocks with the stock link, the linear nature of coil shocks doesn't match the bike's tuning. Though the RC4 is more progressive than other coil shocks, I didn't want to compromise on a bike of this caliber. I turned to Push at that point because not only have they worked magic on a few of my shocks in the past, but they have always given me very good advice with regard to bike setup.

I ended up speaking directly with Darren, the owner of Push, who happens to ride a Nomad Carbon as well. He said his inspiration for designing the new link was pretty much exactly what I was going through. He couldn't find an air shock that he liked on the bike, and though he did say that a tuned Monarch Plus was the best air shock he had tried on the bike, he insisted that the link with a coil was pure magic. After putting a little more thought into everything, I ended up calling Fox for a ProDeal on an RC4 (which did in fact come with a spring) and got the link ordered from Push.

There is a weight gain over the air shock/stock link combo, but when you're riding it doesn't matter. As Darren had told me, the link is not for the kind of rider that values climbing and descending equally. The point of the link is to optimize the performance of a modern coil shock with a slant towards descending. The shock does tend to bob a bit more while pedaling due to the very high leverage at the beginning of the travel, but as long as you can spin decent, smooth circles you likely won't notice any difference unless you really look for it. At any speed, the link makes the suspension action of the bike much, much better. The rear end of the bike completely outshines my 36 TALAS, which I had never experienced before, and I must say I really appreciate the additional adjustability of the coil. The bike tracks the ground much better with much better traction in blown out corners. It still pops off lips very well, but it sits a little lower and rides much more like a downhill bike in the rough. The biggest improvement is the stability of the shock. I have not yet found a situation where I have been able to overwhelm the shock, and it doesn't have weird compression spikes or dive uncontrollably like the RP23 did when it got heated up.

The biggest testament to the capabilities of this new setup was a direct comparison of the two setups in Whistler. I took an early season trip to Whistler with my RP23-equipped bike, and then another trip late in the season with my RC4/Push link setup. No other components had changed, and I was not only riding faster but also felt significantly less tired at the end of the day. Braking bumps were MUCH less of a pain, and the shock kept consistent performance all the way from the top of Garbo to the base. Performance on big hits was much better because the shock didn't blow through its travel, so I felt more in control even on trails like A-Line and Dirt Merchant. High speed rough on trails like Whistler DH and parts of Schleyer was loads more fun on the RC4 as well.

For $214, the only drawback of the Push link is that you can't run an air shock with it. Get it. Excuse the long-winded post.

 

[-C-]

As I want mine as an allrounder, I stuck with air.

It came with a DHX Air, which was a b*tch to set up. As little as 10psi difference in the main chamber could feel either way too hard, or way too soft. I seemed to be getting none of the benefits of a heavy air shock and all of the stereotypical issues.

I swapped it for a 2012 RP23. Big difference. Really quite happy with the way it feels now. Easy to set up, works well - thumbs up from me.

I could chuck a coil on it, I tried that with my last bike - made it feel a bit plusher, a bit heavier and I went no faster downhill, just had to lump more weight back up again.

 

[abbike18]

ZHendo- Thanks a ton for that post - that was exactly what I was looking for. Someone who had tested and tried all the options together. I ordered my DHX RC4 from Fox, so I'll have to let you know how it feels when it comes in. From what you are saying, I think I made the right choice. I did some modeling of suspension using the linkage software too, and it confirms what I was feeling on the air shock, and it looks like the coil will fix it. I'll try to post some graphs from linkage later.

 

[abbike18]

Check out the graph. Blue line is air shock (very progressive with spacer installed) and the green line is with the coil. You can really see how the air shock would blow through travel, and the coil would stay a little more controlled.

 

[nolson450]

I took the plunge and got the RC4 as well on my NomadC. First ride I just rode it in the factory settings, which felt stiff. I have since backed out the LSC, HSC, and Bottom Out settings all the way, and reduced the Air pressure to 125. I'm 205lb and have the 400lb spring. I prefer to have as little dampening as possible and run off the spring. Initial thoughts are that the dampening is much better/ controlled than the DHX 4.0 I have on my Uzzi VP. This is my 3rd VPP bike (2nd VPP2) and I feel like the design ramps up a bunch at the end, hard to bottom out. Sag looks very close, hopefully I can use the full travel.

Compared to the RP23, it feels much more planted. As long as my pedal stroke is smooth, the bob is fine, but you have to stay seated. I think I'm just a coil spring guy, I love the feedback of a coil. This is my first carbon bike, and I have Haven carbon wheels, so the RP23 with Carbon felt vague and I couldn't tell what the rear end was doing. When you smash rocks with Aluminum, you feel it, and get an idea of how hard to push. Weird sensation with carbon, seems like you can hit stuff harder than you should.

Question: will a 400lb Ti coil ride a little softer than a steel? More supple? Will most likely stay with a 400, but am curious how a 350 would ride.