[patconnole]

Sorry, it ain't biking related.... This sums up pretty much how I'm feeling about this whole war dealy. http://www2.warnerbros.com/madmagazine/files/onthestands/ots_424/gulfwars.html

http://www.voiceyourself.com/home/gaurdian.html

http://www.eskimo.com/~xeno/nobushnowar.html

http://www.rense.com/general17/before.htm

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

 

[proglife]

Ha..that's pic is great.

The ignorance of everyman is kind of scary....

 

[Sideways]

HAHAHAHAH!@!@@@ Thats a great movie poster!

With movies in mind:
Go see "Bowling for Columbine"!

Keep in mind that I like owning and shooting guns, and I'm still screaming how great this movie is.

 

[patconnole]

my favorite part of the poster is the green Dick Cheney. He looks like a green goblin. GRRRRR!!!! (sounding like a green goblin)

 

[BostonBullit]

oh come on, why not bomb the shiet out of Iraq? not only does it give the military something to do and a way to get rid of old ammo, but it's fun to watch in the evening whilest eating dinner. what the heck is the point of being a super power if you don't blow someone up every now and then? sheesh....

 

[patconnole]

That's a good point. Watching those precision guided missles always hit their targets was cool. Man, I bet there were barely any civilian casualties because the bombs are so accurate!


Here's some quotes from a sheet called "Media Coverage: Fair, Accurate, Balanced?" that Bert Sacks handed out at a talk he gave on campus. Bert Sacks is computer programmer in WA state who's been to Iraq 9 times since the gulf war. He went with state representative Jim McDermot recently.... some of you might remember that from the news a month or two ago. He currently owes a fine of $10,000 to the gov for bringing medical supplies to Iraq.


From the sheet:

"Has our media reported with truth? Here is one example, involving sanctions on Iraq. As shown below, in 1999 UNICEF [the UN's children fund] reported that sanctions had contributed to the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. The UNICEF report was never mentioned on the three main TV networks. The Wall Street Journal coverage is below, two sentences.

Wall Street Journal, "The death rate for Iraqi children doubled in this decade, according to a UNICEF report sure to reignite debate over UN sanctions. The US blames Saddam Hussein's regime for hoarding food and medicine pruchased under a program allowing limited oil sales."

Head of the UN oil-for-food program: "It is not-- I repeat, it is not, and you can check with my colleagues-- a premeditated act of withholding medicines from those who should have it."




Washington Post Article: "The worst civilian suffering, senior american officers say, has resulted not from bombs that went astray but from precision-guided weapons that hit exactly where they were aimed--- at electrical plants, oil refineries and transportation networks.

Pentagon officials declined two written requests for a review of the 28 electrical targets and explanations of their specific military relevence.

"People say, "You didn't recognize that it was going to have an effect on water or sewage,"" said the planning officer. "Well, what were we trying to do with the sanctions--help out the Iraqi people? No. What we were doing with the attacks on infrastructure was to accelerate the effect of sanctions."

End of sheet quotes..



So, yeah, watching those precision guided bombs is going to be cool! I wonder if we can specifically target drinking fountains, faucets, and toilets?


www.endiraqsanctions.org
www.nobushnowar.com

 

[dromond]

Hehehe oh man that's friggin great. After all, how could the Bushes leave us without a sequal? I grand finally to thrilling original conflict?

 

[BostonBullit]

oh no! won't someone PLEASE think of the CHILDREN???

all I'm trying to say here is that we got all these bombs that have experation dates and they need to be used; and Iraq is as good a place for em as any. where else would we drop the things, Canada? come on now, the riding is waay to good up there to do something like that. but Iraq, have you ever seen a mountain bike in Iraq? nope, didn't think so. and no, all them smartie bombs don't land where they're supposed to...where would the adventure and mystery be if they did? all they would have to do is say "we're going to tell this thing to blow up that building" and we could take their word for it...the excitement is watching CNN to find out where the things actually landed. bunker, radar site, ammo dump, hospital, daycare center....as long as it goes boom then it's good television, and after all isn't that what modern wars are all about? we need something to take our minds off the bad economy so I say let the authoratative pre-emptive forceable peacekeeping action begin!

 

[Sideways]

Better first scare the American population into believing it's absolutely necessary to go to war!

And while they're all running scared, lets pass a few bills to strip them of some freedom.

We dont need that stuff, anyway.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Well,


This is certainly in the wrong forum but.......what the hell.

Let the carpet bombing begin.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well,


This is certainly in the wrong forum but.......what the hell.

Let the carpet bombing begin.

Please just browse through the links patconnel posted.
Don't need to take it all in....but do recognize whats going on here.

 

[Jm_]

"Has our media reported with truth? Here is one example, involving sanctions on Iraq. As shown below, in 1999 UNICEF [the UN's children fund] reported that sanctions had contributed to the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. The UNICEF report was never mentioned on the three main TV networks. The Wall Street Journal coverage is below, two sentences.

Thats the biggest crock of sheiße. I hate it when people say crap like that. It's akin to a terrorist or gunman who is holding hostages telling the hostage negotiator that "these peoples live sare in your hands". Bull F-ing ****, one person(or regime) and one only is responsable, its the goverment of that country. If they can't provide for their own people and take care of them that is THEIR fault, not ours, not anyone elses. Plus there are too many people in this world already.

 

[Jm_]

plus, being in the military and learning about some of these cultures and such(no not being brainwashed) some people just dont understand the middle east. Except for israel, you could easily say at least 95% of the people hate the US, and will try to hurt it if given the chance. These people are told anti-american and western propaganda every day, and they are told to hate us. It is a matter of governments in these regions being EXTREMELY jelous of our way of life and the relative "ease" we live in day to day. What is the solution? there is no easy one, except to destroy anything that might be harmfull to us, but some people just dont understand how much nearly every one of these people hate and detest our way of life.

 

[dromond]

Originally posted by Jm_
What is the solution? there is no easy one, except to destroy anything that might be harmfull to us...

How is this the only solution? Please explain.

 

[dromond]

Originally posted by Sideways
Better first scare the American population into believing it's absolutely necessary to go to war!

And while they're all running scared, lets pass a few bills to strip them of some freedom.

We dont need that stuff, anyway.

This is unfortunately, I believe, the biggest reason behind this looming conflict. Joe-six-pack pays just about zero attention to what's going on in congress if it doesn't have to do with Iraq/terrorists these days. I can't even turn on the news these days. Each time I get more freaked out about what Bush is doing. Oh and guess what I heard on CNN today. This is great. Bush is taking a landmark stand on environmentalist issues by proposing a bill that will force SUV's to be 1.5% more fuel efficient. YUP, 1.5 ****ing percent. Man that's really going to make a dent in the ****ing ozone-hole. Go damnit I can't even think about it without getting all riled up.

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by Jm_
plus, being in the military and learning about some of these cultures and such(no not being brainwashed) some people just dont understand the middle east. Except for israel, you could easily say at least 95% of the people hate the US, and will try to hurt it if given the chance. These people are told anti-american and western propaganda every day, and they are told to hate us. It is a matter of governments in these regions being EXTREMELY jelous of our way of life and the relative "ease" we live in day to day. What is the solution? there is no easy one, except to destroy anything that might be harmfull to us, but some people just dont understand how much nearly every one of these people hate and detest our way of life.

I'm not trying to argue here, please don't take offense to what I say, but well, listen. The truth about this whole mess is complex, and I'm not saying I have all the answers by any means at all--- but I'd like to say the situation is more complicated than "they hate our way of life."

Another note, especially to any military people. I totally support and I'm PROUD of the military and the people in it, but I'm not too proud of the people directing it currently.


Bert Sacks, the guy I mentioned above, read a quote by Madeline Albright (think it was her)... around the time of the gulf war. She was asked about the effect of sanctions and our target bombing..."Even knowing how many children and innocent people can die... (she was given an actual number, I think. Lots of people)...... Do you think that this is worth it?" Madeline Albright: "It's a difficult decision, but yes, we think it's worth it."


Sacks explained, "This quote, this phrase, is everywhere in the middle east, in every language." So yes, if anyone does hate us over there, when we say things like that, you can kind of understand why they might feel that way.


Our sanctions over the last 10 years or so have had a worse impact on the citizens, the average blo-joes of Iraq than Saddam has. Nobody's saying Saddam isn't a horrible leader or that he hasn't done horrible things, but the motives and the methods the US is currently using are very questionable.

Take the time to read this, from the washington post, 1991:

".......People say, "You didn't recognize that it was going to have an effect on water or sewage,"" said the planning officer. "Well, what were we trying to do with the sanctions--help out the Iraqi people? No. What we were doing with the attacks on infrastructure was to accelerate the effect of sanctions."

Col. JOhn Warden III, deputy director of strategy, doctrine and plans for the Air Force, agreed that one purpose of destroying Iraq's electrical grid was that "you have imposed a long-term problem on the leadership that it has to deal with sometime."

"Saddam Hussein cannot restore his own electricity," he said, "He needs help. If there are political objectives that the UN coalition has, it can say, "Saddam, when you agree to do these things, we will allow people to come in and fix your electricity.' It gives us long-term leverage."

End of quote

Here's a US Defense Intelligence Agency document, from the second day of the gulf war.

1. Iraq depends on importing-specialized equipment- and some chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily mineralized and frequently brackish to saline.
2. With no domestic sources of both water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will continue attemps to circumvent UN sanctions to import these vital commodities.
3. Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease..
28. The entire Iraqi water treatment system will not collapse precipitously... full degradation of the water treatment system propably will take at least another 6 months.


Skip 10 years later, to 2000. Exerpts from press release of Ohio representative Tony Hall after a trip to Iraq.

"I share UNICEF's concerns about the profound effects of increasing deterioration of Iraq's water supply and sanitation systems on its children's health. The prime killer of children under five years of age-- diarrhoeal diseases-- has reached epidemic proportions and they now strike 4 times more than they did in 1990. Holds on contracts for the water and sanitation sector are a prime reason for the increases in sickness and death.... OF THE 18 CONTRACTS, ALL BUT ONE HOLD WAS PLACE BY THE US GOVERNMENT."

The mostly unheard of UNICEF report in 1999, "reported that sanctions had contributed to the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children." And the head of the Oil-for-Food program disagrees with the argument that "one person(or regime) and one only is responsable."


So.... yes, I agree Saddam is a responsible party as you say, but this is not similar to the hostage situation you speak of. In this case, the negotiator's purpose has nothing to do with saving the hostages, and the negotiator cut the water, sewer, an medical infrastructure of the building---All as a means of giving "us long term leverage."

This is about oil.


Check out the oil timeline: http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm


http://www2.warnerbros.com/madmagaz...4/gulfwars.html

http://www.voiceyourself.com/home/gaurdian.html

http://www.eskimo.com/~xeno/nobushnowar.html

http://www.rense.com/general17/before.htm

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Jm_
.... What is the solution? there is no easy one, except to destroy anything that might be harmfull to us, but some people just dont understand how much nearly every one of these people hate and detest our way of life.

I also detest the American way of life. Really, I do...I think it is sick.
Maybe you should kill me, or at least destroy Asheville, NC’s water supply and Infrastructure.

Oh, but wait. I don't have a vested intrest in the world's oil supply. I'm not a threat to our oil baron government leaders.

(Well, I do promote riding a bike instead of driving....)
Better get a smart bomb in the direction of 65 Clifton Ave, Asheville, NC, 28806.

 

[proglife]

Originally posted by Jm_
These people are told anti-american and western propaganda every day, and they are told to hate us. It is a matter of governments in these regions being EXTREMELY jelous of our way of life and the relative "ease" we live in day to day.

You're right. But it's a two sided sword. We have our president saying the same things about THEM in nationally televised speeches.

My girlfriend's father, a State Trooper, put it this way: "When you're the big dog, everyone's going to hate you". There is a lot of truth to that. When you live in a world so tightly knit by economies, one country is going to end up being the inevitable leader, and in turn, taking up the majority of the world's resources at much cheaper prices than are available to those who need the cheap prices.

I'm not going to get all into this, as the point was well made. I'll just put a couple or pertinant quotes. I hope you enjoy them, they are classic:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor,
for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.
It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils
with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism,
will offer up all of their rights unto the leader
and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-Julius Caesar

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

- Woodrow Wilson,The New Freedom (1913)

We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."

-- David Rockefeller

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

-- David Rockefeller

 

[BostonBullit]

Originally posted by Sideways


I also detest the American way of life. Really, I do...I think it is sick.
Maybe you should kill me, or at least destroy Asheville, NC’s water supply and Infrastructure.

HA! you can't fool us, Asheville, NC doesn't have a water supply or infrastructure.....sheesh...

please relocate to a more industrialized location so that the bombing can commence.

 

[BostonBullit]

Originally posted by dromond
Oh and guess what I heard on CNN today. This is great. Bush is taking a landmark stand on environmentalist issues by proposing a bill that will force SUV's to be 1.5% more fuel efficient. YUP, 1.5 ****ing percent. Man that's really going to make a dent in the ****ing ozone-hole. Go damnit I can't even think about it without getting all riled up.

I love it when people freak out about SUVs and fuel ecomomy. like we're single handedly causing some giant hole in the ozone layer....have you ever been to a place like Panama City Panama? how bout mexico city? makes LA look like a hotbed of environmental preservation!

mental note, put them on the list of places to 'dispose' of our old bombs...

Oh, BTW the latest data shows that the hole in the ozone layer is getting smaller...

 

[dromond]

Originally posted by BostonBullit


I love it when people freak out about SUVs and fuel ecomomy. like we're single handedly causing some giant hole in the ozone layer....have you ever been to a place like Panama City Panama? how bout mexico city? makes LA look like a hotbed of environmental preservation!

mental note, put them on the list of places to 'dispose' of our old bombs...

Oh, BTW the latest data shows that the hole in the ozone layer is getting smaller...

Actually if you'll read what I wrote a little more carefully you'll see that I am in fact not freaking out about the fuel economy of SUV's, but Bush's pathetic attempt to present himself as an environmentalist by passing meaningless and innefective environmental actions. SUV's are certainly not singlehandedly creating a hole in the ozone layer, and thus reducing their emmisions by 1.5% will do virtually nothing.

 

[Bikecrasher]

Thanks for reminding me...I need to put some oil in my SUV!

 

[Jm_]

I also detest the American way of life. Really, I do...I think it is sick.... Maybe you should kill me

IF you pose a threat, i fully agree.

 

[Jm_]

I love it when people freak out about SUVs and fuel ecomomy. like we're single handedly causing some giant hole in the ozone layer....have you ever been to a place like Panama City Panama? how bout mexico city? makes LA look like a hotbed of environmental preservation!

Yep, the US pales in comparission to other places like China and Mexico.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Jm_

IF you pose a threat, i fully agree.

I do pose a threat to the wealth of the guys running the country!
You know, the oil barons and CEO's of large energy companies, etc...

I preach alternative transportation, minimizing consumption, and I fully disagree with their imperialistic tendencies...
Yeah, the reason Mexico city is so nasty...we send our dirty industry south! Its let large textile companies make bigger profits while stripping the southern Appalachians of employment

Come and get me.

 

[proglife]

Originally posted by Sideways


I do pose a threat to the wealth of the guys running the country!
You know, the oil barons and CEO's of large energy companies, etc...

I preach alternative transportation, minimizing consumption, and I fully disagree with their imperialistic tendencies...
Yeah, the reason Mexico city is so nasty...we send our dirty industry south! Its let large textile companies make bigger profits while stripping the southern Appalachians of employment

Come and get me.

Haha! Even if the Lifetime isn't what you're looking for, pick one up on principle! :where's the american flag emoticon when you need one?:

 

[BostonBullit]

Originally posted by Sideways


I do pose a threat to the wealth of the guys running the country!
You know, the oil barons and CEO's of large energy companies, etc...

I preach alternative transportation, minimizing consumption, and I fully disagree with their imperialistic tendencies...
Yeah, the reason Mexico city is so nasty...we send our dirty industry south! Its let large textile companies make bigger profits while stripping the southern Appalachians of employment

Come and get me.

YEEEE HAWWW!! Down with Big Oil! Down with Corporate America! Kill Whitey!!!

got a question for ya there brother: where at does the nice steel in your Endless frames come from?

maybe its mined by a little old miner dude that smelts it himself on his little farm in the ozarks while carefully seperating out any environmentally harmfull byproducts of the process...free range steel perhaps?

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by BostonBullit


YEEEE HAWWW!! Down with Big Oil! Down with Corporate America! Kill Whitey!!!

got a question for ya there brother: where at does the nice steel in your Endless frames come from?

maybe its mined by a little old miner dude that smelts it himself on his little farm in the ozarks while carefully seperating out any environmentally harmfull byproducts of the process...free range steel perhaps?

It's easy to joke about things like this..... to lump it all into one category. I used to think "why are people so pissed? what's with these activists?? Things are fine, what's the problem?"
And when someone would bring up some of the problems, I'd pick on one thing that person was doing (building bike frames, for example) and say "Ah hah! Look at you! You're just as bad as the rest of em!"


Then I'd forget about it and keep chomping down meat, driving my 5 seater car alone, buying one-use-only products.... and still sometimes wonder, "What's the big deal!??"

Well, most of us are comfortable here.... and because of that comfort it's hard for us to look around and see the problems we're causing and problems we're not helping stop. Once you see these problems though, you'll find it hard to joke about them. The institutions around us also make it difficult to see these very real problems, and their solutions. I hope sometime you'll start to look for more than what's been handed to you.... then you might see why Big Oil, and Corporate America, and a huge list of other things are worth more than a joke.


Places to start:

Rent "Roger and Me" to see why corporate america is a big issue.

Check out from a library the video "The best campaign money can buy" to see how corporations influence our leaders and reps (the people who are supposed to represent OUR interests)

Check out from a library the video "Fear and Favor in the News Room" to see how the media creates an atmosphere where it's hard to see the real problems around us.

Check out from a library the video "The Panama Deception" to see how our little-talked-about illegal invasion of Panama was really about economic interests, rather than nabbing a "drug-lord". And how pretty much all of our military interventions are about maintaining our current economic structure (Big Oil, Corporate America).

Buy michael moore's "The Awful Truth" DVD for the most hilarious explanations of most of these problems.

 

[DRB]

The thing that absolutely kills me about all of the arguments are that they are so one sided. All of the sources that patconnole sited are completely slanted towards one side of the arguement (USA evil, Big Business Evil, etc... etc...) The same is true of folks on the other side of the arguement. I could list page after page of sites and sources for information regarding how Saddam is a horrifying butcher that has little regard for any human life other than his own. That if it wasn't for the UN sanctions would have probably completely wiped out every Kurd in Iraq. How he has already used more chemical weapons then all the other governments in the history of warfare combined. Just like all the conspiracy web sites that say IAO and NSA are just an extension of the illuminata ready to take over and institute the New World Order.

What makes it even worse, is that except for the most wacky of these sources, there are grains of fact in all of them. But the average American just doesn't have the energy to dig thru the retoritc to get to it. Barabara Trent's film is a perfect example of this. While she brings to light many interesting point that were glossed over or otherwise ignored by the mainstream media she also chooses to ignore many aspects and facts as they don't support her theories.

Extremism and fundamentalism is the true enemy. Because at the root of them is an intolerance of others and their points of view and an unwillingness to ever consider compromise as a potential solution or answer.

 

[MikeD]

Why be a jackass and post this in the bike forum?? There's a perfectly good political debate forum for it.

Mods, please do your thing.

 

[BostonBullit]

I am fully aware that big corporations are in charge and are the ones that really select who gets elected in the US. I am fully aware that the media doesn't really inform us of the truth but instead provides us with a biased view of just about everthing. It's not hard at all to see the problems if you actaully stop and look for them, no institutions have the ability to hide the real problems because there are enough ways outside of the mainstream to find the real answers....if you're not to lazy to seek them out.

Protest all you like. Hold demonstrations and print fliers to let us all know the "truth". Stop eating meat and demand labels for all genetically enhanced foods. Drive a small car or ride a bike everywhere you go...better yet, carpool. recycle all your waste and bring a canvas sack to carry home your groceries. call on the government to not wage war "for oil" or other economic reasons. watch all the biased indie movies and read all the slanted articles that tell you how "it really is". But you know what? you aren't going to change anything. you said it yourself, big corporations control just about everything. do you think they're going to let you change that? no, not today, not ever. so I suggest you get used to it and find a way to live with it.

I eat meat because I like the taste. I drive an SUV because I transport crap around and it's more convienent. I support the blowing up of another country that would do the same to us if they had the means.

and yes, I will pick on someone who stands around at a WTO protest wearing levis and chatting on a cell phone because they're HYPOCRITES....it's just that simple.

 

[CreeP]

Just live with it!!?? wtf is up with that. you suck!!

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Sideways


Please just browse through the links patconnel posted.
Don't need to take it all in....but do recognize whats going on here.

While im sitting here trying exactly to take in "whats going on here," I think I'd like to point out that Boston Bullit has hit the nail right on the head.

Although "just live with it" sounds a bit bitter to most of us, think about how good you have it right now.

You obviously arent too poor to afford meals, being that you have internet access. You're not enslaved, seeing as how you ride a mountain bike and are alotted free time to do what you please.
You've got it made.

Is the computer and software industry not a big business? What the hell are you using right now? You dont support big business my ass! The crude materials are powering generators that are giving you electricity. Why are you posting on mountain bike forum if you're so concerned about all this bad ju ju in the government?

Go buy some hemp shoes or something.

 

[Sideways]

Some folks are so quick to jump to conclusions.

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by BurlySurly




While im sitting here trying exactly to take in "whats going on here," I think I'd like to point out that Boston Bullit has hit the nail right on the head.

Although "just live with it" sounds a bit bitter to most of us, think about how good you have it right now.

You obviously arent too poor to afford meals, being that you have internet access. You're not enslaved, seeing as how you ride a mountain bike and are alotted free time to do what you please.
You've got it made.

Is the computer and software industry not a big business? What the hell are you using right now? You dont support big business my ass! The crude materials are powering generators that are giving you electricity. Why are you posting on mountain bike forum if you're so concerned about all this bad ju ju in the government?

Go buy some hemp shoes or something.

awesome, seriously. This is a great point. There's a pretty simple explanation to the two hypocricy arguments posted so far: In order to effect the largest change in the problems I see, I use some of the resourses provided to me, even though those resources are related to the problem. Yeah, I'm gonna buy hemp shoes, dude! I'm trying to do my part! I'm not perfect, I think it's ok to wear levi's and use a cellphone! But in order to enact change, which is what I'm trying to do here, I have to use computers and cellphones, and drive my car, etc. It's a tradeoff. I could go to the local hippy farm and subsist on food I grow, and not use any technology, and not communicate...... But I want EVERYONE to move to the hippie farm (metaphorically, as far as consumption and stuff goes), not just me..... it's a trade off that's worth it. With this way of looking at it, arguments like "Well, what about you!! You're using electricity!!!" are pointless. Yeah, I'm using electricity to create a change greater than me simply not using it. Get it?



As far as the bias in the souces I cite, especially the videos, yeah, I agree.... The truth can be found somewhere between two sides, I'm just trying to expose people to another side. But I agree with the bias issue. I don't think that's a big enough reason not to listen to these ideas though.... we've all got bias.

Originally posted by BurlySurly



"You obviously arent too poor to afford meals, being that you have internet access. You're not enslaved, seeing as how you ride a mountain bike and are alotted free time to do what you please.
You've got it made.

Originally posted by BurlySurly


Is this a reason not to care? Sounds cheesy, but seriously.

Originally posted by BostonBullit


I eat meat because I like the taste. I drive an SUV because I transport crap around and it's more convienent. I support the blowing up of another country that would do the same to us if they had the means.

Originally posted by BostonBullit


I love the taste of meat, but the amount of resources wasted involved in producing it is enough to make me try and curb my appetite. I'd support blowing up a country like that two, but we're not dealing with a country like that, we're dealing with a few people in power. I'd also support policy that helps people tend NOT TO HATE US.

Originally posted by BostonBullit

Originally posted by DRB


That if it wasn't for the UN sanctions would have probably completely wiped out every Kurd in Iraq.

Originally posted by DRB


Just a quick note..... We tried to sanction Iraq when Saddam did this. Bush Senior vetoed the bill.

 

[B-boy]

Hey patconnole, I just wanted to say thanks for the links. I read all of them, and also all replies in this thread and it has definately opened my eyes to other sides to the story that need to be considered.. Thanks again bro,

lee

 

[patconnole]

quote from BostonBullit
But you know what? you aren't going to change anything. you said it yourself, big corporations control just about everything. do you think they're going to let you change that? no, not today, not ever. so I suggest you get used to it and find a way to live with it.


A friend of mine just read your post, she says it sounds like you were once an idealist, turned cynical. You're right, I'M not going to change anything, but WE can. Movements take more than one person, and movements are more than demonstrations and flyers. It's as simple as telling people you know that a guy painted "no bush" and "no war" on his house.... dialogue, continual exchange of ideas.

To quote the great rage against the machine, "we need a movement with a quickness," but with people that aren't quick to judge.



Thanks B-boy.... that makes my week.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by patconnole




awesome, seriously. This is a great point. There's a pretty simple explanation to the two hypocricy arguments posted so far: In order to effect the largest change in the problems I see, I use some of the resourses provided to me, even though those resources are related to the problem. Yeah, I'm gonna buy hemp shoes, dude! I'm trying to do my part! I'm not perfect, I think it's ok to wear levi's and use a cellphone! But in order to enact change, which is what I'm trying to do here, I have to use computers and cellphones, and drive my car, etc. It's a tradeoff. I could go to the local hippy farm and subsist on food I grow, and not use any technology, and not communicate...... But I want EVERYONE to move to the hippie farm (metaphorically, as far as consumption and stuff goes), not just me..... it's a trade off that's worth it. With this way of looking at it, arguments like "Well, what about you!! You're using electricity!!!" are pointless. Yeah, I'm using electricity to create a change greater than me simply not using it. Get it?

No........I dont think i do get it.

I could see if you used the pleasantries allotted to you only to spread your brave new world gospel, but that simply isnt the case.
There isnt a soul here who would believe that the only reason you have a cell phone, a car or a computer is to help make the world a better place.....much less a mountain bike!

You must be at least slightly entertained by these things...and in doing so, the level of your hipocrasy completely negates any tradeoff you were hoping for.

If you can smile because your tires made from crude petroleum products bought or stolen from the middle east, and you claim to denounce the whould idea....you are, by definition, a hypocrit.

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by BurlySurly

You must be at least slightly entertained by these things...and in doing so, the level of your hipocrasy completely negates any tradeoff you were hoping for.

I guess that's where me and you are different. ... yes, I use goods and enjoy them, but at the same time I'm becoming more aware of their origins, and their impact-- so I'm on my way to using less and less of them. (it's hard not to want to argue here.... ). Do you really think I'm even capable of subsistance farming? I'm not, at all.... I buy my food at a store (co-op)! I bike, and drive, and when I need new tires, I buy them... Do you really think I'm against using oil from the middle east? I'm against the US believing it has a right to control it, and the tactics it has used to do so. It's not like I'm trying to preach one thing and quietly do another, I'm sorry I didn't spell out what a normal consumer I am..... I guess.... the whole point of this "brave new world" crap that I've been writing about is to alert people of problems I think are worth caring about.... Instead, it gets turned around on me... It seems like the whole point of you posting here is to prove that I (we) are hyprocrits....

Spend your energy on something more positive..... more constructive. Ah jeez.

Adios.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Jm_
plus, being in the military and learning about some of these cultures and such(no not being brainwashed) some people just dont understand the middle east. Except for israel, you could easily say at least 95% of the people hate the US, and will try to hurt it if given the chance. These people are told anti-american and western propaganda every day, and they are told to hate us. It is a matter of governments in these regions being EXTREMELY jelous of our way of life and the relative "ease" we live in day to day. What is the solution? there is no easy one, except to destroy anything that might be harmfull to us, but some people just dont understand how much nearly every one of these people hate and detest our way of life.

Have you ever thought why they might hate the US? With people around who think like you do they have a bloody good reason to I'd say...

Just try re-reading your pile of bigotry once or twice.

Or then again don't bother, you'll never see things from anyone else's point of view.