[Inclag]

Yes, I know about the big long thread.

This may seem a bit pretentious, and maybe it is, but are their any good reviews from sources that are a bit more objective on this new Avalanche Advantage Cartridge? Potentially from a magazine or website?

I'm going to have a newer style Boxxer for next season and I'd prefer not have to deal with the growing pains SRAM has gone through with this newest iteration of fork, so I'm open to an aftermarket cartridge so long as the chassis, bushings, and seals work decently.

I failed at finding anything of value via the Google.

 

[LOOnatic]

MTBR was the only ones that i know of that have ridden one. You are not going to see a magazine test of Avalanche products. Craig doesn't give things away and doesn't buy big glossy ads in said mags so he relies on word of mouth to sell his products.
Kind of old fashioned but he's a small operation, been a leader in the field for a long time so yeah.

You can ride mine any time you want. It sells itself.

 

[stumpjump]

Its still pretty new so you are probably going to have to comb pretty hard to be able to find anything of that nature. I just got mine last week and I can say that I like it a lot more than the stock damper for what its worth. Its was certainly worth the money to not have to deal with replacing blows damper seals anymore. Im sure theyll have a magazine review in the next few months or so.

 

[descente]

if you buy the avalanche cartridge you will drop 25% from your race times, be the coolest kid on the mountain with a boxxer, and you will never crash. or die. objective enough for ya?

they really do sell themselves. i haven't seen a single negative prop about them yet. i stand by my claim that it is the best fork i've yet ridden (new dorado is pretty freaking close tho).

 

[norbar]

Yes, I know about the big long thread.

This may seem a bit pretentious, and maybe it is, but are their any good reviews from sources that are a bit more objective on this new Avalanche Advantage Cartridge? Potentially from a magazine or website?

I'm going to have a newer style Boxxer for next season and I'd prefer not have to deal with the growing pains SRAM has gone through with this newest iteration of fork, so I'm open to an aftermarket cartridge so long as the chassis, bushings, and seals work decently.

I failed at finding anything of value via the Google.

Since when Magazines and websides are objective. Last time I checked everybody on RM was really pissed that they were not.

Id like to know more about the chart but asking users seems like a better option for me.

 

[profro]

I don't have one, But I felt Loonatic's and I want one now.

 

[skatetokil]

Its still pretty new so you are probably going to have to comb pretty hard to be able to find anything of that nature. I just got mine last week and I can say that I like it a lot more than the stock damper for what its worth. Its was certainly worth the money to not have to deal with replacing blows damper seals anymore. Im sure theyll have a magazine review in the next few months or so.

Lets go riding so i can test yours and write an objective review.

 

[cableguy]

I tried Bullcrew's Boxxer World Cup, and it felt amazing. My next fork will be exactly the same thing.

 

[bullcrew]

Theres a couple of things in the works, yes Craig doesnt give stuff out or pay for ads and YES thats a big factor on wether a part gets a positive review or a so/so...
Craigs stuff doesnt blow up, leak, break or leave you hanging and Ive searched the internet so for the past 10 years or so I think he has proven himself without a doubt as well as the fact alot of the stuff put out by MX tune shops and suspension products there are rebranded stuff Craig makes for them...

His forks have been hailed one of the plushest and meanest forks out there and now theres a means to put those guts (reduced in size) inside just about any chasis...

Try someones beat the hell out of it, rip it, corner it and especially make sure you hit some really nasty choppy stuff rocks, braking bumps, blown out berms etc to really appreciate the magnitude of the cart... Just dont tell them you plan on beating the hell out of their bike too LOL

 

[Freeridin']

I'm digging this thread back up as I'm in the same situation as the OP. I can't find a single full review that doesn't have Bullcrew's name attached.

Seems silly to buy a 2011 RC2C when a can get an RC and an AVA Cart for nearly the same price.

Any new reviews out there?

 

[Jm_]

Waiting for mine, hopefully I'll get it soon. I'm thinking maybe this week. I do know that with my avalanche rear on my RFX I simply look for the most chunky rocks to ride down, how it handles them is just amazing. On other rides I avoid the chunkiest sections. The avalanche eats them up like crazy.

 

[gemini2k]

Craigs stuff doesnt blow up, leak, break or leave you hanging

Kind of destroys the excitement of riding a boxxer, no?

 

[bullcrew]

Kind of destroys the excitement of riding a boxxer, no?

Lmao. Yeah kind of takes the lottery excitement out of stuff.

 

[norbar]

Ive only had 2 days of riding on mine but the initial impression is very good. Ive been one of the lucky ones to have a properly working boxxer wc 2010 but the HSC on that fork felt like crap in some situations. With avy I feel the fork is where it should be all the times and actually allows me to pick crazier lines. I can write a bigger review after 2nd may.

 

[slyfink]

Ive only had 2 days of riding on mine but the initial impression is very good. Ive been one of the lucky ones to have a properly working boxxer wc 2010 but the HSC on that fork felt like crap in some situations. With avy I feel the fork is where it should be all the times and actually allows me to pick crazier lines. I can write a bigger review after 2nd may.

I'm trying to dial my fork in now, and I'm wondering... can you explain how crappy HSC feels compared to good HSC?

 

[norbar]

I'm trying to dial my fork in now, and I'm wondering... can you explain how crappy HSC feels compared to good HSC?

It took me some time to notice being a hack but a good example is when I hit the brake bumps in the L2A bikepark (very small but close together covering most of their tracks) I though my fork is broken. Felt choppy and harsh and my hands werent to happy about it. In most cases you dont get so much fast hits but whenever I did the boxx felt worse than imho it could.

During my first ava days I took a few hairy lines on purpose to test the HSC and i felt the obstacles much less without the fork diving too much. I still need to tune the LSC to my needs on my fork but so far Im very impressed.

Also - the mid valve is worth it. No bobing or diving.

 

[Pegboy]

I'm digging this thread back up as I'm in the same situation as the OP. I can't find a single full review that doesn't have Bullcrew's name attached.

Seems silly to buy a 2011 RC2C when a can get an RC and an AVA Cart for nearly the same price.

Any new reviews out there?

Maybe Loonatic will chime in but I'll tell you what he told me:

I recently replaced my fork and was considering the Boxxer/ Avalanche route..or a WC. Loo has been on the Avy/boxxer, and while he states that it is an improvement over the 2010 WC his feeling were that by the time you spend the money on the chasis and the cartridge, the 2011 WC (which has supposedly adressed the shortcomings of the 2010) would be the route he would go today. He seems to love the Avy cart but I think that is a pretty un-biased suggestion on his part. I think if you allready own a Boxxer, then the choice is pretty straight forward.

I picked up the 2011 WC on e-bay for a very good price and if you shop around you could do the same. Maybe send him a PM or wait until he wonders in here.

 

[Inclag]

I'm digging this thread back up as I'm in the same situation as the OP. I can't find a single full review that doesn't have Bullcrew's name attached.

Seems silly to buy a 2011 RC2C when a can get an RC and an AVA Cart for nearly the same price.

Any new reviews out there?

Hey Freeridin'

I currently have a 2011 Boxxer RC which so far has performed surprisingly well. I have yet to really put it through its paces, but will be doing so in a few weeks once the mountains start opening. As has been alluded to by Dirt, some of the most reliable and best performing forks they have used lately have been some of the "lower" end models. I really have no vested interest in the Ava cartridge and personally have been skeptical of Bullcrew's reviews of basically anything for years now.

My current plan is to beat the bejeezus out of the stock fork for a good couple months and then maybe I'll order one of these Ava cartridges. If I do, I'll be the first to update this thread and relay my thoughts on it. However, bike suspension is pretty darn good nowadays and after not being able to ride for a full year I'm more interested in riding than spending money on parts that provide no real tangible gains compared to just getting out and riding more.

Although I'm sure within a few more months I'll be back to upgrade geekery

 

[Orvan]

Between Loonatic's perspective (and I've witnessed this boy tear up sh*t) and Bullcrew's boiler plate guerilla marketing, I decided on waiting for the stock Keronite Boxx WC and not give a single penny to Avy again.
Thanks Loo.

 

[Raingauge]

I'm trying to dial my fork in now, and I'm wondering... can you explain how crappy HSC feels compared to good HSC?

I'm not sure if the 2011 is the same as the 2010 but there are things you can change with the stock internals to make the fork feel better. Oil weights. removing the bottom out stop, ect...

 

[norbar]

I'm not sure if the 2011 is the same as the 2010 but there are things you can change with the stock internals to make the fork feel better. Oil weights. removing the bottom out stop, ect...

Yeah I manged to kinda get over that and the fork felt a bit better. I have to admit I went for avy mostly so I don't stress over RS internals build quality blowing up on bottom out and due to the open bath idea. I hope to give the fork a test next week at Maribor but the stock 2010 WC felt very good if you don't ride brake bumps and are not really anal about suspension.

 

[Raingauge]

Yeah I manged to kinda get over that and the fork felt a bit better. I have to admit I went for avy mostly so I don't stress over RS internals build quality blowing up on bottom out and due to the open bath idea. I hope to give the fork a test next week at Maribor but the stock 2010 WC felt very good if you don't ride brake bumps and are not really anal about suspension.

I'm pretty anal about my setup. I'm on a team tho so it might have something to do with the air vs coil spring.

Most guys around my weight I know went to a softer spring instead of changing oil and cutting/removing the bump stop.

I kept the medium spring and went with 2.5wt oil and no bump stop at all. The first few inches of travel are super plush, the last two ramp up nicely and no brake dive.

I don't doubt the Avy stuff works awesome but I'd try a few things before spending the extra cash on a cartridge.

 

[norbar]

I'm pretty anal about my setup. I'm on a team tho so it might have something to do with the air vs coil spring.

Most guys around my weight I know went to a softer spring instead of changing oil and cutting/removing the bump stop.

I kept the medium spring and went with 2.5wt oil and no bump stop at all. The first few inches of travel are super plush, the last two ramp up nicely and no brake dive.

I don't doubt the Avy stuff works awesome but I'd try a few things before spending the extra cash on a cartridge.

I tried playing with oil thickness as well as viscosity. That's why I suggested I managed to get it feel better. It felt very good, especially in terms of where it ramped up and where it was plush but I went for avy for the reasons I mentioned in the previous post. I won't post a full review yet as my first 2 days were in very soft mud which makes it harder to properly feel how your suspension works. Though in that time it did feel better. It's wasn't a huge differance but noticable.

 

[LOOnatic]

Between Loonatic's perspective (and I've witnessed this boy tear up sh*t) and Bullcrew's boiler plate guerilla marketing, I decided on waiting for the stock Keronite Boxx WC and not give a single penny to Avy again.
Thanks Loo.

The bottom line is that the avy cart flat out works.
You really cant put it into words. Thats why trying to convince people online is pointless.
I just let folks ride my bike and they can take away from it what they will.
Profro is a good example. While my hucking skills outshine is racer azz he is in fact a mechanical engineer and has done data acquisition stuff on DH suspension. He is not a newb.... has a KTM moto with works ohlins TTX dampers and rides the bejesus out of everything.
I didnt say a word besides , here you go (with bike) and in 30 seconds of mashing he was sold.

I have not ridden the 2011 wc boxxer back to back to my fork but RS did in fact improve the damper and the aircart over the 2010. There is a video online of it somewhere.

Yes craig can be abrasive at times and we have had heated discussions. But, i still have his products on my bike so read between the lines if you will.

 

[46chief]

So will any old chassis (fork) be as good as the next? considering the 888 hasn't changed much, would a 2005 888 be as good a fork as a new boxer if they both had avy carts?

 

[4130biker]

I think an 06/07 would be the best if you're looking for older- had the flat crowns those years.

 

[Freeridin']

Lots of previously unseen thoughts on AVA.

Ideally, I would want to ride a stock R2C2 for some time, then later give the AVA cart a try. Seeing as a RC and the AVA cart are nearly the same price, I can't justify thrashing a R2C2 only to swap out the expensive internals later on.

Comparing a stock RC to an AVA Boxxer does not seem appropriate but it is the most economical route.

 

[slyfink]

I'm not sure if the 2011 is the same as the 2010 but there are things you can change with the stock internals to make the fork feel better. Oil weights. removing the bottom out stop, ect...

I guess I was trying to find out how you can tell if your HSC feels good or bad. LSC is easy to figure out, but the HSC is a little more involved I think.

 

[bullcrew]

I guess I was trying to find out how you can tell if your HSC feels good or bad. LSC is easy to figure out, but the HSC is a little more involved I think.

Rail some chatter, multiple square edge hits, braking bumps in and out of a berm or bigger hits is a good way to dial in hi speed. About the only true way to get it set for your liking.

 

[karpi]

HSC can only be felt when riding down the track, you can never feel it during a parking lot test (unless you have crap suspension). What always works best is hitting your local trails and playing aroud with HSC, whilst making sure to write down the changes, and then comparing how it feels.

 

[marshalolson]

i just lost a big long reply, so here is the quick and nasty version of what it said...

IMO:

the ava cart offers a little smoother small bump compliance, and a little more support under hard braking and off lippy jumps than the team/wc guts. it will chew up oil a little slower as well. i would personally put the ava in a boxxer for sure, but i would want to upgrade to an air spring, because i find the rockshox coils to be too linear. you can easily get a new RC, add an Ava cart, and then add the solo air top cap and air spring to the stock, unused stanction for about $200-ish, just have your local shop order from bti. so you would wind up with a wc ava for like $1100-1200 or something. which is the hot call IMO.

compared to a 888, i found the stock internals to be rather comparable to the ava carts in the real world, and would not upgrade to an ava. i might consider a mid-valve to the shim stack on mine, but overall i find it really riding nicely, and quite comparable to the ava overall. i do really like the progressive nature of the 888 chassis over the coil boxxers, again, total personal call. i just like to run a softer spring and have a ton of smooth, controlled predictable ramp-up into the meat of the travel. just my style.

 

[Jm_]

Got mine today and got it installed. I hope to be able to give some feedback later this week.

 

[Jm_]

Ok, I did a couple XC rides and just abused the hell out of my bike and fork all day with some full on DH action at South Mountain.

Disclaimer:
Don't buy this product unless you ride hard. My chubbie rear shock (on another bike) is a lot better at being an "all around" shock, still it's a bit harsher at slower speeds than other stuff, but it shines when you go faster and it gets nasty. The fork does this to an even higher extent. I don't know if this is completely a result of the specified tuning, but it's not for people that go down the trail at slow or medium speeds. Case in point, if you are the guy (there are always some in a group) far behind the fast pack that slows way down for chunky sections and obstacles, sometimes gets off and walks, never "boosts" over a huge rock garden, and generally doesn't "attack" the hill, this is not for you. It is not for you because you will not activate the circuts and you will probably "stall" some with it. You will probably take a hit with the high speed performance if you do lighten the damping enough that it works in this low speed/less agressive range, but that's just my guess. I guess my point is that if you are looking for some piece of equipment to somehow make you as fast as the fastest people you ride with, this is not it, it rewards agressive riding, but it doesn't "move" as easily at low speeds. Those tendancies we sometimes call "wallow" and "blowing through the travel" at high speeds generally help people at those lower speeds. With these traits gone, the ability to supply absorb every low-speed impact is diminished IMO. Don't get me wrong, this product is great and it's everything I thought it would be, but it might not be what you are expecting. That all said, I'm sure it could be re-valved to be much more supple on the low speed stuff, but I'd wonder what you'd lose with the high speed.

On to the good: This thing simply levels the mountain, the faster you go the better it gets, which is classic avalanche IME. It's strange how my bike feels overdamped in some terrain, yet out in the super-chunky stuff of South Mountain it simply works and sucks up stuff that it seems it has no business being able to suck up, especially sharp edged rocks. The rear shock is an avalanche DHS, so I get somewhat balanced suspension out of this combo (although I got 40+lbs lighter, so it needs a revalve badly, I try to make up for it with ballast, haha). There are lots of sharp rocks on South Mountain at crazy angles that you have to deal with at speed. Lots of sections involve boosting or jumping over rock gardens, but sometimes landing in those rock gardens or simply in terrain that you were not planning on. This cartridge definitely gave me the control and confidence to do that to a higher exent than ever before. I was doing "jumps" and boosting sections with confidence that I never had before, landing off-camber and on surfaces that at first I was just not sure I could get away with. It's amazing how the impacts change the faster you go, lots of little irregularities are gone and then you have the bigger high-speed hits, and those are dealt with nicely, often referred to as "butter", but it really felt like those sharp hits and rocks were damped out so much that I was able to ride with less fatigue and hit stuff I had never hit before. I played with the rebound a bit, but I know that avalanche products like to run lots of low-speed rebound and are usually decieving in their "parking lot" tests, as when you are moving fast the fork reacts fast due to it's high speed valving. The first couple runs were simply "OMG, my fork works!" situations. If you've ever ridden South Mountain (Holbert, Geronimo, 24th street) you know this is some of the rockiest/chunkiest terrain out there. Having something work as well as this on that terrain is amazing to me. The first couple XC rides I did on this bike were a little decieving, but I thought that if I pushed it hard (and I did on a couple sections during those rides) it would do what it is supposed to. It's also pretty hard to terribly mess up the settings usually with the adjustments, but I have to do more in that area to really get it tuned for what I want. Craig's baseline settings seem pretty darn good, I only increased low speed about 3 clicks more than the recommended. As far as damping overall, something that gets better the faster I go and the chunkier the terrain is exactly what I want. The fork is an older 888 RC3 WC (coil), but the RC3 cart never seemed to work correctly, or maybe it did and I was just super picky about my suspension. The improvement over that old cart is huge though. It seems like the 2012 888 finally incorperates most of the features that Avalanche has been using for about 10 years now (shimmed rebound/compression piston, needle low-speed adjuster, etc), but 10 years late is way too late for me, I wasn't going to wait for them to finally make the new cart avail, and then worry that it might or might not work with my older 888. Overall I think this was good money spent, it really transformed my fork and made my bike very capable. The fact that it works so well (now) on the terrain of SoMo blows me away. Way better than before. I didn't think I'd be dissapointed and there weren't any real suprises with the cart. A machined rebound knob would be nice at least, but I can understand why the compression adjuster doesn't have a knob (different foot-nut configurations on different forks).

Objective? IDK...that's for you to decide. You can take it or leave it.

 

[HAB]

Stuff

Not sure if I just missed something, but what chassis are you running it in out of curiosity?

I've actually got my 2010 Boxxer Team feeling very, very good after a bunch of work on it, but am also sort of tempted to give one of these a go a bit down the road. It's not happening super soon because I'm in the process of sinking a bunch of money into the DH bike already (CCDB and new wheels) but it might be the next move after all that. Thanks for the review. It actually sort of reminds me of my impressions on the CCDB so far. It's not the plushest thing ever over small bumps at low speeds, but open it up and it feels unreal through chunky stuff at speed.

 

[JRogers]

I guess my point is that if you are looking for some piece of equipment to somehow make you as fast as the fastest people you ride with, this is not it, it rewards agressive riding, but it doesn't "move" as easily at low speeds.

I had a DHS quite a number of years ago and this is exactly how I would describe it- at low speeds it didn't feel that active at all and gave kind of a choppy ride. At high speed it felt so much better and was amazing on big hits and rocks. I ended up not liking the shock very much because of that; I was slower back then and the shock was on a freeride bike that was ridden on tough XC trails but no DH or shuttling. Guess I just had it on the wrong bike at the wrong time.

 

[norbar]

Strangely after riding for some time this season mine could have used a bit more HSC. Though I only feel it when I go into plow mode but a friend of mine who works on susp should help with that.

 

[Pslide]

Don't buy this product unless you ride hard. My chubbie rear shock (on another bike) is a lot better at being an "all around" shock, still it's a bit harsher at slower speeds than other stuff, but it shines when you go faster and it gets nasty. The fork does this to an even higher extent.

It's also pretty hard to terribly mess up the settings usually with the adjustments, but I have to do more in that area to really get it tuned for what I want. Craig's baseline settings seem pretty darn good, I only increased low speed about 3 clicks more than the recommended.

Perhaps you should try all the adjustments prior to claiming it's a bit harsh at slower speeds?

 

[Jm_]

Perhaps you should try all the adjustments prior to claiming it's a bit harsh at slower speeds?

When I said I need to do "a bit more" I did mean I have to expiriment more, but I did try some different settings already. The "only 3 clicks past recommended" is what I settled on yesterday, but not all that I've tried. Avalanche tuning adjustments are usually a "usable" range where each click doesn't make a huge adjustment, and going full in either direction doesn't make the shock/fork mollassess slow or jackhammer quick, as those settings are completely useless in the real world. The range of adjustment will change the traits of the suspension, but not as radically as you may experience on your marzocchi or RS product.

Like I said though, you don't have to buy one. I'm quite happy with it (I would do it again for sure!) and it's a huge improvement. If you ride slower and less agressive, the benefit just isn't there as much, and it won't help you be that faster rider IMO.

 

[Jm_]

Not sure if I just missed something, but what chassis are you running it in out of curiosity?

I've actually got my 2010 Boxxer Team feeling very, very good after a bunch of work on it, but am also sort of tempted to give one of these a go a bit down the road. It's not happening super soon because I'm in the process of sinking a bunch of money into the DH bike already (CCDB and new wheels) but it might be the next move after all that. Thanks for the review. It actually sort of reminds me of my impressions on the CCDB so far. It's not the plushest thing ever over small bumps at low speeds, but open it up and it feels unreal through chunky stuff at speed.

A Turner Highline set up with 7" travel (by way of DHS) in the rear. The shorter rear shock (stock travel was 8") slackens it out, but the full seat tube still lets me "XC" it when I want to, which is nice. A full-on DH bike would sit in my garage way too much, but I take it on the full DH stuff too, Phoenix, Flagstaff, Bootleg, etc.

I've also got a Chubbie on an RFX, and the support/damping on that thing is unreal. It has so much support and feels so "stable", yet it still moves like crazy for the sharp impacts. If ridden on the same XCish trails as my DH bike, it feels a little better due to lighter damping. If I ride the DH trails the highline does better with it's heavier damping.

 

[Pslide]

When I said I need to do "a bit more" I did mean I have to expiriment more, but I did try some different settings already.

Thanks for clarifying. I need a fork that performs at all speeds since some of the trails I ride are a bit tight, and some rock gardens you just can't hit fast no matter how good you are. From past reviews it sounded like this cartridge was pretty versatile, so I was a bit surprised to read your review.