[da bikoholic]

Hello everyone!

i was wondering how a patent is infriged???

especially how many claims have to be infriged to have a patent infrigement...

What about US patents and international patents???

 

[Jettj45]

It is specific with each case and there are a lot of gray areas as to what your intent are with your "invention" and if someone else used it for a different objective....Like when the blackberry came out, they got sueded by the company who invented it even though they had no intention of mass producing it for commercialized use.

 

[Transcend]

Why, you looking to go work for MRP?

 

[jon-boy]

OUCH!

 

[Zutroy]

Patent infringement is a pretty huge subject.

This is a pretty good overview on the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_infringement

It gets really sticky when you get into the areas of drug, and Biotech stuff.

Nice one Fraser

 

[Transcend]

Nice one Fraser

Yesterday my water tank exploded. Today I'm in the mood for one liners.


ZING!

 

[jon-boy]

It wasn't unjustified either.

 

[al-irl]

I know i'm gonna be going off topic slightly. I'm a bit sick of all the diggs at mrp the raceface rip off of the e13 guide is way more blatent. Werent MRP subjected to numerous blatent rip offs of there guides over the years. There was a time when there wasn't another guide worth buying untill e13 came along and there not without there flaws. They are good but having used both guides I don't really see any reall advantage over the MRP from the E13. Ive broken a supercharger and if it where an mrp alloy guide i could have bent it back instead of having to buy a new bash guard. I really think that the reason everyone has them is more of a fashion thing than the fact they are significantly better. They are both good products and I think all the jibes at Mrp are a bit unnesecarry. After all a chainguide is pretty simple and there all gonna look similar. All you have to do is look at how many MRP clones there are on the market. All those clone companies are jumping on the E13 bandwagon and replicating there guide because thats what will sell. You can't blame MRP for wanting a piece of the action afterall they where the market leader for years. Ok rant over.

 

[Transcend]

All those clone companies are jumping on the E13 bandwagon and replicating there guide because thats what will sell. You can't blame MRP for wanting a piece of the action afterall they where the market leader for years. Ok rant over.

They won't be doing it for very much longer.

Also, Raceface got it's fare share of "srs with flames!" comments. The g2 is just as bad however.

 

[jonKranked]

They won't be doing it for very much longer.

by "they" are you referring to MRP? "doing it" referring to copying e.13? Please explain.

 

[Transcend]

Ya beat me to my "add a quote" edit. I am referring to "all these clone companies". You can draw your own conclusion as to why.

 

[jonKranked]

Fraz, I'm still not sure what you're referring to... is e.13 pursuing legal action to stop the cloning or something?

 

[Transcend]

Fraz, I'm still not sure what you're referring to... is e.13 pursuing legal action to stop the cloning or something?

Like I said, draw your own conclusion.

 

[jonKranked]

Like I said, draw your own conclusion.

A --------------> B

 

[buildyourown]

To enforce your patent, you need to have the money to sue the infringer. Nobody is going to do it for you. If you don't have any money for lawyers, patents are worthless.

 

[Zutroy]

To enforce your patent, you need to have the money to sue the infringer. Nobody is going to do it for you. If you don't have any money for lawyers, patents are worthless.

Bingo!!! It's really one giant game of who's got the most money to burn.

 

[Slater]

The real question is why did you register for a biking forum to ask a patent infringement question?

 

[giantrider89]

hey my post disappeared......what did i do wrong?

 

[da bikoholic]

Haha good one transcend!!!
it cuts like a knife...

 

[da bikoholic]

Well i'm working on my senior project and i'm planning on designing a bike with an integrated transmission...which is floaded by patents. I know patent infrigement is a delicate subject and i want to be better informed about it..... is there any guidelines....let's say 3 claims out of 12 corresponds to my invention....am i still infriging the patent...

The problem is.....patents contains some claims which are highly general and are really difficult to avoid.

Anyone has more information about patent infringement.....books...website...anything.....

 

[Smelly]

Ive broken a supercharger and if it where an mrp alloy guide i could have bent it back instead of having to buy a new bash guard.

Actually, it's more likely that you would have bent your crank spider or just snapped the crank. Sure, you could have bent your bash back afterwards, but you would have then had to buy a new crank.

 

[buildyourown]

Well i'm working on my senior project and i'm planning on designing a bike with an integrated transmission...which is floaded by patents. I know patent infrigement is a delicate subject and i want to be better informed about it..... is there any guidelines....let's say 3 claims out of 12 corresponds to my invention....am i still infriging the patent...

Patent infringement liability is limited to the money you make off of it. If you do a school project, you're not making money. You could blatantly rip off a well protected patent, and they still wouldn't win unless you did something that hurt the image or marketability of their product. Even then, it's debateable.
Like all things in life, it goes back to the money. If you don't have any, they won't sue you. If they win, you don't have any money to pay them damages.

Why do you think Microsoft is getting sued by everyone and their brother? Because they have really deep pockets.

 

[khoolhandz]

I work for a non-bike industry engineering company and we hold multiple patents on some of our products.

Patent infringement really is a very delicate subject to tackle and better reserved for lawyers specializing in patents.

One good resource we have in the office is a book from David Pressman "Patent it Yourself". See if you can buy it online or borrow it from a library. It will explain in relatively simple terms what is involved in patent applications and what to look out for.

However, as what has been claimed already it all boils down to how much ($$) you're company is willing to set aside for legal patent issues.

All I can tell you is that any single technology that is infringed in our patents, our lawyers are on top of it right away. It does not matter how small it is.

Well i'm working on my senior project and i'm planning on designing a bike with an integrated transmission...which is floaded by patents. I know patent infrigement is a delicate subject and i want to be better informed about it..... is there any guidelines....let's say 3 claims out of 12 corresponds to my invention....am i still infriging the patent...

The problem is.....patents contains some claims which are highly general and are really difficult to avoid.

Anyone has more information about patent infringement.....books...website...anything.....

 

[matsO]

Transcend: so, is it possible that E13 has patented the solution with cutting a bash i half and attaching it on the bottom of the bottom bracket? Which patent office would approve such a patent I wonder?

I buy G2...

 

[Transcend]

Transcend: so, is it possible that E13 has patented the solution with cutting a bash i half and attaching it on the bottom of the bottom bracket? Which patent office would approve such a patent I wonder?

I buy G2...

It is more than possible that you can patent an integrated bashguard in a chain retention device as well as it's mounting standard.

Specific solution to specific problem. I believe it was you who brought that up the last time you bitched about e.13 patents.

 

[matsO]

Yes, you have a very good memory, it was me bitchin

If there is a patent infringement then you have a patent infringement, just surprised if E13 have been lucky enough to get the solution patented, congrats.

will still buy the G2, probably have a little different solution on the attachment and a different shape, nothing like a taco.

 

[ChrisKring]

Patent infringement liability is limited to the money you make off of it. If you do a school project, you're not making money. You could blatantly rip off a well protected patent, and they still wouldn't win unless you did something that hurt the image or marketability of their product. Even then, it's debateable.

Not true. Damages are equal to what the patent holder lost by not producing the patented product due to the infringing party producing it plus other losses that can be proven. Additional amounts can be tacked on for punitive. Sorry if it isn't more clear.

School project is questionable if someone would come after you. More likely a cease and desist since you don't have any $$$ to sue for. If they do not attempt to enforce the patent every time, then it will become non-enforceable.

Copy a specialized product if you want to test this. They sue a lot of people.

 

[dirtdigger]

what i'd like to know is could i make some fsr type bike frames in the shed at home and maybe sell a few that are not made or sold in the us? or would the specialized heavys come round and crush my operation?

 

[dante]

I spy, with my little eye, something on the US Patent Office's website....

 

[Transcend]

I spy, with my little eye, something on the US Patent Office's website....

3.0 SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

[0005]The current invention relates to impact protector mountings and mounting methods to protect parts and structures from forces, in particular impact forces. Impact protector mountings and mounting methods of the current invention are useful for vehicles of all kinds, including land vehicles, water vehicles, under-water vehicles, air vehicles, and space vehicles. Impact protector mountings of the current invention are especially useful for bicycles or other vehicles that use drivetrain components that can benefit from impact from protection. In certain embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention comprises structures, designs, or arrangements that locate an impact protector in relation to a sprocket. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention locates an impact protector at a location inboard of a sprocket or sprockets. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention shares components with a chain guide or chain retention system. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention separates an impact protector component from a chain guide component. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention directs impact force from an impact protector to a frame structure without intermediately transferring force through a drivetrain component such as a bottom bracket or crank arm. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention uses multiple connections to locate an impact protector to a frame structure. In certain other embodiments, these connections are bolted connections. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention uses multiple connections to locate an impact protector to a mounting plate which uses multiple connections to locate to a frame structure. In certain other embodiments, these connections are bolted connections. In certain other embodiments, these locations are splined connections. In certain other embodiments, a connection adapter can be a removable component that can be replaced if damaged. Multiple designs are shown to meet the requirements included as well as different aesthetic needs and manufacturing costs.

 

[da bikoholic]

Well....if my prototype proves to be worthy....my design could go into production later....so yes patent infringement is a big concern for me.....

I don't plan on copying anyone....but some patents have claims which are way to general and almost impossible to avoid.....

So my concern is really...when is a design infringing another one.....

for exemple....a claim such as : "a gear according to any one of the preceding claims, wherein the gear is included in a housing "

lets say my mechanism is different then the one in the preceding claims...but is included in a housing.....am i infringing???

 

[dw]

Well....if my prototype proves to be worthy....my design could go into production later....so yes patent infringement is a big concern for me.....

I don't plan on copying anyone....but some patents have claims which are way to general and almost impossible to avoid.....

So my concern is really...when is a design infringing another one.....

for exemple....a claim such as : "a gear according to any one of the preceding claims, wherein the gear is included in a housing "

lets say my mechanism is different then the one in the preceding claims...but is included in a housing.....am i infringing???

You need to seek the help of a trained IP professional. Bring lots of money..

 

[CKxx]

3.0 SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

[0005]The current invention relates to impact protector mountings and mounting methods to protect parts and structures from forces, in particular impact forces. Impact protector mountings and mounting methods of the current invention are useful for vehicles of all kinds, including land vehicles, water vehicles, under-water vehicles, air vehicles, and space vehicles. Impact protector mountings of the current invention are especially useful for bicycles or other vehicles that use drivetrain components that can benefit from impact from protection. In certain embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention comprises structures, designs, or arrangements that locate an impact protector in relation to a sprocket. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention locates an impact protector at a location inboard of a sprocket or sprockets. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention shares components with a chain guide or chain retention system. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the current invention separates an impact protector component from a chain guide component. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention directs impact force from an impact protector to a frame structure without intermediately transferring force through a drivetrain component such as a bottom bracket or crank arm. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention uses multiple connections to locate an impact protector to a frame structure. In certain other embodiments, these connections are bolted connections. In certain other embodiments, an impact protector mounting of the invention uses multiple connections to locate an impact protector to a mounting plate which uses multiple connections to locate to a frame structure. In certain other embodiments, these connections are bolted connections. In certain other embodiments, these locations are splined connections. In certain other embodiments, a connection adapter can be a removable component that can be replaced if damaged. Multiple designs are shown to meet the requirements included as well as different aesthetic needs and manufacturing costs.

THE TACO! in legalese.

 

[ChrisKring]

You need to seek the help of a trained IP professional. Bring lots of money..

Yep, a good attorney will have a staff including engineers, paralegals, technical writers, patent researchers (otherwise know as retired patent agents), etc. Plan to pay big bucks for even a clearance search. A patent will cost you well into 7 figures to obtain and defend.

I really hope you guys realise why DW is protecting his IP. He has a lot of time and money into development. There is a lot more that goes into a product than the material.

Similarly, I have watched competitors outright stealing designs of the company I work for. This puts people out of jobs. Not cool.

 

[ChrisKring]

Well....if my prototype proves to be worthy....my design could go into production later....so yes patent infringement is a big concern for me.....

I don't plan on copying anyone....but some patents have claims which are way to general and almost impossible to avoid.....

So my concern is really...when is a design infringing another one.....

for exemple....a claim such as : "a gear according to any one of the preceding claims, wherein the gear is included in a housing "

lets say my mechanism is different then the one in the preceding claims...but is included in a housing.....am i infringing???

Like Dave said, an IP professional can help you understand the application of the words "and" and "or" as they apply to multiple claims.

 

[buildyourown]

School project is questionable if someone would come after you. More likely a cease and desist since you don't have any $$$ to sue for. If they do not attempt to enforce the patent every time, then it will become non-enforceable.
.

It's not illegal to copy a patent and produce it for yourself in your garage for personal use.
If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

 

[ChrisKring]

It's not illegal to copy a patent and produce it for yourself in your garage for personal use.
If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

Straight from the FAQ of the US Patent office:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#patent

What Is a Patent?
A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. U.S. patent grants are effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S. possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or adjustments may be available.

The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO.

There are three types of patents:

1) Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof;

2) Design patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new, original, and ornamental design for an article of manufacture; and

3) Plant patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant.

 

[SPINTECK]

Well....if my prototype proves to be worthy....my design could go into production later....so yes patent infringement is a big concern for me.....

I don't plan on copying anyone....but some patents have claims which are way to general and almost impossible to avoid.....

So my concern is really...when is a design infringing another one.....

for exemple....a claim such as : "a gear according to any one of the preceding claims, wherein the gear is included in a housing "

lets say my mechanism is different then the one in the preceding claims...but is included in a housing.....am i infringing???

i'm no patent attorny, but I doubt "a housing" will prohibit a gear box. possibly the dimensions or mounting of the housing, or even the assembly, but I would bet my house for lawyer fees my "housing" design would not be challenged if it was indeed unique.
You got the links handy for the patents you are talking about??