[JohnE]

http://www.utne.com/Politics/Pledging-Allegiance-To-Peace.aspx?utm_content=07.04.11+Sci-Tech&utm_campaign=UTR_ENEWS&utm_source=iPost&utm_medium=email&page=6

Long but interesting, thought provoking read...discuss.

 

[Patrick L]

I have thought about this for a while and have basically come up with what the author stated. However, while patriotism (interchangeable with religion?) can be used to get mass amounts of people onboard to support unjust causes such as the Iraq War, i feel that it is more than appropriate to have in excess for stuff like the Olympics, or being overly and obnoxiously stoked that Aaron Gwin is kicking ass. That said, I dont see a mass change in mindset to humanism changing anything. Sure in theory I guess it would eliminate dividing people by "patriotism'' and what not, but it's people will look for other things to make them different or better than another (color of skin and religion namely).

 

[valve bouncer]

You know what really sh*ts me? When Americans say "this is the greatest country on earth" because Australians (and I dare say Canadians, the French, the British do so too) say exactly the same thing. Never occurs to either that by definition one of them must be wrong.
Japanese often ask me "Do you like Japan?" a seemingly simple but blatantly loaded question. I refuse to answer because to do so would imply that I think there needs to be some system whereby we can rank how good or bad a country is. I can't understand why the people of any country would want to aspire to be the "greatest". Its totally meaningless to me. Accordingly patriotism is equally meaningless. I'm sure my boys don't even understand the concept of it. They would be confounded by the concept of having to choose between Australia and Japan as for them there is nothing to choose, essentially it's an indivisible unit.

 

[gonefirefightin]

didnt read the article, and probably wont since there are so many different views of the topic and I tend to get enraged, but my idea of patriotism is a very simple one considering my experiences and I belive it is still alive in america.

but americans are impatient and ignorant anymore.

 

[stevew]

other peoples patriotism doesn't bother me.

i ignore that.

like i ignore people who say if i could live anywhere else but here i would.....but never do.

 

[JohnE]

I think people become patriotic because they are trying to make themselves feel better in regards to where they live, whether they chose it or some long gone ancestor.
Patriotism/Nationalism is healthy, imho, but like many other things, when taken in excess in the wrong modality it becomes unhealthy.
VB, do you feel that the attitude in Japan is related to WW 2? Germans, in my experience, rarely if ever speak of the 1940s and Hitler and his little band...

 

[valve bouncer]

VB, do you feel that the attitude in Japan is related to WW 2? Germans, in my experience, rarely if ever speak of the 1940s and Hitler and his little band...

Remember '45!
Of course they don't want to talk about it, they lost. It is, in fact, worse than in Germany here as under a certain age large numbers of people simply have no knowledge of what happened or that it even happened at all.

 

[rockofullr]

You know what really sh*ts me? When Americans say "this is the greatest country on earth" because Australians (and I dare say Canadians, the French, the British do so too) say exactly the same thing. Never occurs to either that by definition one of them must be wrong.
Japanese often ask me "Do you like Japan?" a seemingly simple but blatantly loaded question. I refuse to answer because to do so would imply that I think there needs to be some system whereby we can rank how good or bad a country is. I can't understand why the people of any country would want to aspire to be the "greatest". Its totally meaningless to me. Accordingly patriotism is equally meaningless. I'm sure my boys don't even understand the concept of it. They would be confounded by the concept of having to choose between Australia and Japan as for them there is nothing to choose, essentially it's an indivisible unit.

lol wut?

I can say without a doubt that the US/Japan/UK/Ausi are all better than Somalia. I don't even need a ranking system to tell you that.

 

[valve bouncer]

lol wut?

I can say without a doubt that the US/Japan/UK/Ausi are all better than Somalia. I don't even need a ranking system to tell you that.

Just out of interest and to further flesh out my point please tell me about your time outside of the US.

 

[Silver]

Lotta God stuff in there. Good luck arguing with fanatics about that one, Tony...

 

[rockofullr]

Please tell me again that you would rather live in Haiti than Japan.

BTW I lived in Chile for a brief time and have traveled to Europe and the great nations of Canadia and Meheco. I apologize if I am not well traveled enough to post in this thread.

 

[valve bouncer]

Please tell me again that you would rather live in Haiti than Japan.

BTW I lived in Chile for a brief time and have traveled to Europe and the great nations of Canadia and Meheco. I apologize if I am not well traveled enough to post in this thread.

I never said that and frankly that you'd say something as dense as that shows me you have absolutely no concept about what I'm talking about. I refuse to indulge in territorial pissing contests as it's a completely useless endeavour. While you may have been to those countries mentioned above it certainly seems like you've never travelled.

 

[rockofullr]

I never said that and frankly that you'd say something as dense as that shows me you have absolutely no concept about what I'm talking about. I refuse to indulge in territorial pissing contests as it's a completely useless endeavour. While you may have been to those countries mentioned above it certainly seems like you've never travelled.

I was making the point that even for someone as territorially neutral as you, it is impossible to claim that some countries are not better to live in than others.

What you said:

Japanese often ask me "Do you like Japan?" a seemingly simple but blatantly loaded question. I refuse to answer because to do so would imply that I think there needs to be some system whereby we can rank how good or bad a country is.

I disagree. IMHO there are good and bad countries.

Eg: North Korea = Bad

I'm proud to be a citizen of a country that has it's sh!t together (kinda ). If that means I am patriotic then call me a patriot.

 

[heavy metal]

It's probably easier to be homeless in Haiti than it is in New York city.

 

[JohnE]

Its not about good v. bad countries...its about territorial pissing contests (Thank you VB!) resultant from oversized egos relative to ones place of residence. Even those who live in "bad" places are patriotic towards their homelands. But other than start idiotic wars, what has a sense of patriotism ever done for any country?
I love the US. Mainly for the scenery and the fact that many of my ancestors are buried here and there. Also for teh opportunities it has given me. But what has it gotten me? In the long run, honestly, not much...

 

[rockofullr]

I love the US. Mainly for the scenery and the fact that many of my ancestors are buried here and there. Also for teh opportunities it has given me. But what has it gotten me? In the long run, honestly, not much...

Reary? I don't understand. What were you hoping to get?

 

[stevew]

It's probably easier to be homeless in Haiti than it is in New York city.

if you are white and homeless in haiti....might be a problem.

 

[rockofullr]

if you are white and homeless in haiti....might be a problem.

Especially if you are unique!

 

[Jrock]

I witnessed patriotism at its finest during the recent crisis in japan. Fellow countrymen aiding one another, lack of looting, rioting, etc. Meanwhile, many north and south americans loot from one another, destroy personal/public property, during crisis or soley due to a game being lost.
Many are patriots because theyve left one country for another and have created a better life for themselves/family. Others are patriotic for being part of an exceptional society, one that rewards hard work, economic freedoms, and personal responsibility.
Others are much less patriotic now than before. Reasons may be coruptions, scandals, entitlements, foriegn/ domestic policies, etc.
Optimistic peeps tend to be more patriotic while pessimists not so much.
Liberals=less patriotism= open borders=Agency21/soros$/un/big govt

Conservatives=more patriotism=individualism=koke brothers$/limit govt

 

[stevew]

Reary? I don't understand. What were you hoping to get?

the undying love of people around the world?

 

[rockofullr]

the undying love of people around the world?

I would rep you if I could

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Its not about good v. bad countries...its about territorial pissing contests (Thank you VB!) resultant from oversized egos relative to ones place of residence. Even those who live in "bad" places are patriotic towards their homelands. But other than start idiotic wars, what has a sense of patriotism ever done for any country?
I love the US. Mainly for the scenery and the fact that many of my ancestors are buried here and there. Also for teh opportunities it has given me. But what has it gotten me? In the long run, honestly, not much...

When the remains of Czechoslovakia were falling apart and eating each other alive (patriotism at work) I can recall feeling incredibly happy when driving to work that we weren't having at each other with howitzers and grenades.

I don't buy the United States or any other as the best country on earth, there's no such thing. There are better and worse countries to live in in a variety of dimensions.

 

[MMike]

I don't buy the United States or any other as the best country on earth, there's no such thing. There are better and worse countries to live in in a variety of dimensions.

That's loser talk!!! Love it or leave it!!!

 

[Pesqueeb]

That's loser talk!!! Love it or leave it!!!

You shut your lousy French mouth! Stupid Canadian.

 

[JohnE]

Reary? I don't understand. What were you hoping to get?

Good question...I have no answer that will satisfy you I am sure. Yet I feel relatively sure that few others have one either. What I have, I could have had almost anywhere in the "free" world. ,

 

[heavy metal]

 

[valve bouncer]

I was making the point that even for someone as territorially neutral as you, it is impossible to claim that some countries are not better to live in than others.

What you said:



I disagree. IMHO there are good and bad countries.

Eg: North Korea = Bad

I'm proud to be a citizen of a country that has it's sh!t together (kinda ). If that means I am patriotic then call me a patriot.

I never made the claim that some countries are not better to live in than others. I made the claim that it's a useless endeavour to think that way as ultimately that kind of thinking leads to territorial pissing and that sh*t gives me a soft-on faster than Octomum in lingerie.

North Korea is an interesting case. When the regime of the Great Deluder collapses as it inevitably will and the two Koreas unify the North will probably, for a time, become one of the worlds great tourist destinations. As I understand it has areas of outstanding natural beauty and the country is largely unspoiled by large scale industrial development. Then of course the South, Japan and China will get their greedy mitts on it and turn it into another great North Asian Industrial Wasteland.

All countries I've been to have had their charms, even the desperately poor and totalitarian ones.

I do however concede that while I have never suffered from the lack of anything substantial, our homeless Haitian guy may have a different perspective.

 

[Jrock]

Patriotism is good for the whiskey business!

As American As on Vimeo

 

[ohio]

I like the spirit and intent of the essay, but his arguments were terrible. His logic was repeatedly severely flawed, generally from false dichotomies and incomplete premises - to the point where I'm shocked he's a professor of philosophy. That essay wouldn't have gotten a B- in my intro logic course.

 

[nyhc00]

Patriotism is good for the whiskey business!

As American As on Vimeo

that just re-affirmed how much I want to build a Cafe Racer

 

[MikeD]

that just re-affirmed how much I want to build a Cafe Racer

Which is neither featured in the vid nor particularly American...

?