Alot of the people I ride with are stocking up on the old XTR derailleurs. WHy is everyone not liking the new rapid rise ones?
Rapid rise derailleurs?
- Thread starter genpowell71
- Start date
Some are afraid to try something different. High normal does work very well and it's not that big a difference really. So if it's not a huge difference why change and have to re-learn how to shift? I am using low normal as it came with the new parts I bought. I got used to it in about a month of rides and now I prefer it. It shifts to low gears perfectly every time.
The low-normal that came on my Gemini works better than any regular derailleur I've ever used. It's so much easier, faster, and smoother to cut away gears (downshift) on climbs. No more grinding, crunching downshifts. Bitch now, but you'll have to come around eventually, because Shimano is making this the new standard.
SRAM is staying low normal
So far as I can tell the only difference is the reversal of the shifting on the shifters.
Low-normal = Rapid-riseEvan Martin said:
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RR shifts much nicer under load. It is really far better when down shifting for a hill. That is my opinion.
Just don't worry about shimano....just get sram!! 
Explain why
Well, this probably doesn't mean jack, but I like to think on a Rapid-Rise low-normal rear der, the spring is 'helping the chain climb the hill' up to bigger cogs. Whereas with high-normal the spring is just 'helping the chain fall down the hill' which it wants to do anyway.
Yeah, not so much.
Anyway, I figure people are just resistant to change. Their brains are all wired one way and now you're asking them to reverse it. Theres probably no good technical reason.
[oh, there might be a good technical reason. On some (all?) shifter systems, with high-normal (i.e. non-RR) ders, the left and right shifters work 'backwards' from each other. i.e. on Gripshift, twisting the left grip towards you makes things harder, while twisting the right grip towards you makes things easier. That's because the front der is low-normal (normally sitting over the granny gear). Rapidrise just makes it consistent in the rear. I've definitely noticed this on road ergo systems. i.e. on Campy, the left thumb button means 'easier' and the right thumb button means 'harder']
Yeah, not so much.
Anyway, I figure people are just resistant to change. Their brains are all wired one way and now you're asking them to reverse it. Theres probably no good technical reason.
[oh, there might be a good technical reason. On some (all?) shifter systems, with high-normal (i.e. non-RR) ders, the left and right shifters work 'backwards' from each other. i.e. on Gripshift, twisting the left grip towards you makes things harder, while twisting the right grip towards you makes things easier. That's because the front der is low-normal (normally sitting over the granny gear). Rapidrise just makes it consistent in the rear. I've definitely noticed this on road ergo systems. i.e. on Campy, the left thumb button means 'easier' and the right thumb button means 'harder']
RR is only good for people who like to do rides like slick rock in moab because of all the transitions. In my opinion shimano will lose customers unless the keep ofering the high-norm.
I also think shimano is trying to find any way to jack up the prices on their goods.
I also think shimano is trying to find any way to jack up the prices on their goods.
I wrote a thread to that effect. I asked if anyone else thought it was wierd that shimano was raising the cost of the derailluers. I can honestly say that the way things are going, when I get my new frame this spring, I'll be buying sram. Besides my buddy has an XO rear derailluer and XTR shift pods and the day I borrowed it I was impressed that it shifter better than my XTR and XTR on my tracer. So go with what works is what I say...
If rapid rise is so good, why isn't road going that way?
Genpowell, XO der w/ XTR pods? I though the different actuation ratio made them incompatible.
Genpowell, XO der w/ XTR pods? I though the different actuation ratio made them incompatible.
Seriously caputo, what are you talking about?caputo1989 said:
That was supposed to be X9, not X0
I have a Japanese pen-pal who's a janitor in the Shimano building. He likes to snoop around and recently he wrote me: Ding shong si woww, ahooda li heneu di honga matsui. That translates to: Rapid-rise, coming soon to a road derailleur near you.
I guess we HAVE to include you roadies in this too.
You can include deez nuts! No, just kidding. As stated in an earlier post in this thread, I have a Gemini with rapid-rise. Mountain biker first and foremost. I do have a road bike though. The speed and handling on pavement is like nothing you can achieve on a mountain bike. But road will always be a hobby. Mountain is life.
I like Rapid Rise. I got a bike with it back in 1998 or 1999, when it first came out and everyone hated it.
The first year also had an Avid Rollamajig built in so the rear cable routing was great -- this lasted until Avid sued them for patent infringment.
8-speed XT RapidFire shifters and first-year XTR Rapid Rise: in my opinion, nothing before or since has shifted better. Although people are talking enough about SRAM 1:1 that I may have to try it out.
The first year also had an Avid Rollamajig built in so the rear cable routing was great -- this lasted until Avid sued them for patent infringment.
8-speed XT RapidFire shifters and first-year XTR Rapid Rise: in my opinion, nothing before or since has shifted better. Although people are talking enough about SRAM 1:1 that I may have to try it out.
I suggest you go with the sram X.0 and you can have the triggers or twist shift what ever makes you comfortable. Ive had Shimano XTR on all my bikes since 1996 never giving sram a second look when the new 03 XTR came out I was one of the first folks to have it yeah the shifting was weird at first and shifting from the levers was a novel idea. However you really had to keep things adjusted just right and the Specialized S-works epic I had it on really tested my patience.
I didnt like the epic and sold it the Titus racer x that I test rode had sram X.0 with the grip shift that 1 hour test ride convinced me to go with the bike and the sram. The stuff is that good!! It was like an upgrade from the XTR stuff. You can still get the older XTR stuff pretty easy just as you can get the old 8 speed xt/xtr cassettes still but my endorsement go to sram it just works better.
Ive seen the rear der. and grip shift kit on line for $175 and thats a pretty good deal
I didnt like the epic and sold it the Titus racer x that I test rode had sram X.0 with the grip shift that 1 hour test ride convinced me to go with the bike and the sram. The stuff is that good!! It was like an upgrade from the XTR stuff. You can still get the older XTR stuff pretty easy just as you can get the old 8 speed xt/xtr cassettes still but my endorsement go to sram it just works better.
Ive seen the rear der. and grip shift kit on line for $175 and thats a pretty good deal
I've been on Rapid Rise for a couple years now, and I vastly prefer it.
#1) I find downshifting during a climb to be quicker and less prone to grinding.
#2) My shifting technique works well with RR. I'm not one of those guys who pedals halfway up a hill in too high of a gear and then needs a 6-cog shift to get into a realistic gear for the remainder of the hill. Instead, I slowly downshift one gear at a time as my momentum falls off during the climb. Rapid rise make single-cog downshifts a no-brainer.
I also like how with RR, front & rear shifters work the same (index finger = downshift / thumb = upshift).
However - I don't own a roadbike, and I could see switching back & forth between the 2 systems could be a pain.
IMHO - all MTBs should have been Low-Normal from the outset. Forcing RapidRise on the masses is IMHO one of the few "good" things that Shimano has done in quite some time. (That being said, I despise Shimano for many other reasons and wish I could buy a Low-normal midcage derailleur from someone else!)
-rob
#1) I find downshifting during a climb to be quicker and less prone to grinding.
#2) My shifting technique works well with RR. I'm not one of those guys who pedals halfway up a hill in too high of a gear and then needs a 6-cog shift to get into a realistic gear for the remainder of the hill. Instead, I slowly downshift one gear at a time as my momentum falls off during the climb. Rapid rise make single-cog downshifts a no-brainer.
I also like how with RR, front & rear shifters work the same (index finger = downshift / thumb = upshift).
However - I don't own a roadbike, and I could see switching back & forth between the 2 systems could be a pain.
IMHO - all MTBs should have been Low-Normal from the outset. Forcing RapidRise on the masses is IMHO one of the few "good" things that Shimano has done in quite some time. (That being said, I despise Shimano for many other reasons and wish I could buy a Low-normal midcage derailleur from someone else!)
-rob
Well, I just got back from getting a RR on my hardtail and so far it shifts pretty d*mn good. I'll report later this week when I go out to bargram to put it through a beating
Oops, wasn't thinking, ment high-normal.
Anyways, while I can see how Rapid Rise/Low Normal is good for XC and climing and not forcing the drivetrain, it's the biggest pain when downhilling. If you blow a turn, you need to wait for chain to shift down on the ramps, while with a high-normal or SRAM drivetrain, you can shift several gears in one go. This really applies to DH racing, where if you're stuck in a high gear and can't quickly downshift to get your speed back up, you lose lots on the clock.
Anyways, while I can see how Rapid Rise/Low Normal is good for XC and climing and not forcing the drivetrain, it's the biggest pain when downhilling. If you blow a turn, you need to wait for chain to shift down on the ramps, while with a high-normal or SRAM drivetrain, you can shift several gears in one go. This really applies to DH racing, where if you're stuck in a high gear and can't quickly downshift to get your speed back up, you lose lots on the clock.
Have you used rapid-rise? You can downshift multiple gears as fast or faster than with a high-normal derailleur.
you can do the same with the sram X.0 grip shiftJeff 151 said:
Hello Kitty said:you can do the same with the sram X.0 grip shift
jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only....
Weaver said:jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only....
OOPS!!! hahaha... i thought i had clicked on the bmx forum...no wonder hello $hitty was posting!!! its the lame forum!
Kiss my lame forum!!! :nuts:
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Shut up bitch. You know I am "cooler" than you.Weaver said:
loco said:Shut up bitch. You know I am "cooler" than you.
we will meet again someday....we will meet again....
I guess I'd better trade my Rockgardn jacket in for a sleeveless front-zip jersey, then.Weaver said:jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only....
Damn, and all on account of my shift pods. Some of us DHers like grabbing a big handful of gears in either direction, and a few of us can actually hold on to our grips instead of our shifters. I didn't think twist shifter would work well until I rode someone else's bike...then I put them on all my bikes, too.
You're in the XC forum, by the way.
MD
Im sory!MikeD said:
Id always shif whenever i hit a bump. Theyd be better if they had astiffer twist.
I use Shimano Dura Ace Road, XTR and Alivio Shifter Pods with High Normal Derailleurs, and now the new XT Dual Control Shifters with a Low Normal Derailleur.
At first I was a little baffled with the new XT shifters, since I thought the right shifter was the opposite of the road shifter. I was also getting confused with my old shifter pod, and I would shift in the wrong direction frequently.
But a friend pointed something out to me: he criticized the new shifters because you could only shift to an easier gear one lever movement at a time. At first I didn't believe it him, but it was obvious: you have to shift to every bigger cog one hand flick at a time. However, if I put on a HN derailleur, I would have the same shifting ability as I did before.
With mountain biking, where you might hit a surprise rise, and you need to hit those small gears, you can't with the way Shimano ratches their shifters using a LN derailleur. Mountain bikers can definitely use the ability to click 3 gears easier with one motion.
LN derailleurs could have one advantage on the road: upshifting to harder gears is critical for racing, particularily in starts and sprints. Then the ability to shift 3 gears to the smaller cogs with one motion would be helpful. This would also be helpful in any kind of Gated Racing, like 4X or DS. However, you would lose "precision shifts" to the high gears, since LN derailleurs supposedly shift better to the low.
As someone who has done plenty of road races and mountain biking, I have never noticed a disadvantage because I had to click into a gear one at a time, in either direction. Low-Normal may shift better in the low gears and High-Normal into the high, but the shifter has so much to do with.
I think for Low-Normal derailleurs to truly catch on, the ability to shift multiple gears (high or low) with one hand motion is critical. Otherwise, if Campy could convert their road shifter to mountain bikes....
At first I was a little baffled with the new XT shifters, since I thought the right shifter was the opposite of the road shifter. I was also getting confused with my old shifter pod, and I would shift in the wrong direction frequently.
But a friend pointed something out to me: he criticized the new shifters because you could only shift to an easier gear one lever movement at a time. At first I didn't believe it him, but it was obvious: you have to shift to every bigger cog one hand flick at a time. However, if I put on a HN derailleur, I would have the same shifting ability as I did before.
With mountain biking, where you might hit a surprise rise, and you need to hit those small gears, you can't with the way Shimano ratches their shifters using a LN derailleur. Mountain bikers can definitely use the ability to click 3 gears easier with one motion.
LN derailleurs could have one advantage on the road: upshifting to harder gears is critical for racing, particularily in starts and sprints. Then the ability to shift 3 gears to the smaller cogs with one motion would be helpful. This would also be helpful in any kind of Gated Racing, like 4X or DS. However, you would lose "precision shifts" to the high gears, since LN derailleurs supposedly shift better to the low.
As someone who has done plenty of road races and mountain biking, I have never noticed a disadvantage because I had to click into a gear one at a time, in either direction. Low-Normal may shift better in the low gears and High-Normal into the high, but the shifter has so much to do with.
I think for Low-Normal derailleurs to truly catch on, the ability to shift multiple gears (high or low) with one hand motion is critical. Otherwise, if Campy could convert their road shifter to mountain bikes....
sanjuro said:
How do you like those STI levers?
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Dumping gears to make it easier is better with rapid rise. Only an uncoordinated oaf would not be able to. It shifts smoother as well to do that, preventing a mangled up mess of a cassette. I will continue to run RR in the foreseeable future. I hate the X0 RD and X9 shifters that I have in a box.
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It's long, but yes, I would sell it. Or trade it.MikeD said:
I guess for the casual riders shimano rapid rise would work ok.loco said:
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Yeah and grip shift works if you ride your mountain bike on cart paths.Hello Kitty said: