[MMcG]

I was reading the Rivendell site earlier today about bike fit and handlebar positioning in particular and found it interesting. Their take is the tops of the bars should be a couple of inches (or is it centimeters) above the height of your saddle.

I rarely see bikes set up this way however.

Is it just there bias or does their argument have merit?

Anyone have their roadie set up this way?

Thanks in advance.

Mark

 

[LordOpie]

So subjective, but let me first ask... which bike were they recommending this for? I can see it for a commuter or touring bike, but not a racing roadie.

I have my bars even with my saddle (or did ) and suspect that I wouldn't mind it if they were even higher as I like to lean my forearms on the bars while grabbing the hoods.

 

[MMcG]

well I think Rivendell primarily builds bikes that aren't race bikes.

And that's the type of riding I do on the road (fun rides or charity rides)

Here's an example for reference and I did notice that your bike is one of the few - and maybe Wumpus' - where the tops of the bars are level with the top of the saddle.

Minimal seatpost exposed and the bars are a few centimeters higher than the saddle.

My bike right now. Not a lot of seatpost, but bars are probably an inch or more below the saddle.

 

[LordOpie]

As I've stressed... so very subjective.

But if I had your Serrota I think the bar height would be good enough for me, but I'd rotate them back so the sides of the bars leading to the hoods would be more parallel... hence why I'm looking at bull/cow/whatever horn bars.

I also think (and bet this isn't as subjective) that having the bars so much lower than the saddle is about marketing/ego.

If someone's not racing, I think is retarded to have the bars so low.

NOTE: My comments do not apply to anyone that knows what they like. There are non-racers here who are knowledgeable and like the bars lower. But for the majority of the marketplace, it's because it was what was SOLD to them

 

[LordOpie]

oh, btw, are you thinking of getting a Rivendale? Fvcking beautiful bikes!

 

[MMcG]

oh, btw, are you thinking of getting a Rivendale? Fvcking beautiful bikes!

Nope and my Serotta is up for sale to boot.

so you think rotating the bars so the hoods are more upright would be more comfy on my Serotta - I think I may have rotated them up slightly since taking that photo.

 

[LordOpie]

Nope and my Serotta is up for sale to boot.

For the love of all that's holy, WHY?!

If it's money issues, sell blood

 

[MMcG]

yeah I am nuts - bike is off the market.

Gonna keep it.

 

[jacksonpt]

Fit is way to personal to have blanket statements like that. I have my saddle about level, perhaps a hair higher than my bars. I set it that way so my leg extension is "correct." I actually had to raise my bars a bit because my legs would hit my torso.

 

[MMcG]

well it is - but for regular every day riders I agree with what Rivendell is saying. For racers it may be a different story (or maybe not). But I'd personally rather be a tad more upright rather than all hunched over - maybe it is the MTBer in me that prefers this type of position though.

 

[LordOpie]

yeah I am nuts - bike is off the market.

Gonna keep it.

Are these assumptions correct:
1. you love your bike
2. it fits you well
3. You either ride it regularly or plan to do so again

?


Is everything ok? You hurt or losing interest in riding?

 

[MMcG]

I don't ride it regularly, but I should ride it more often. It rides fantastic. The steel is very smooth and it really is a fine ride. Not the lightest bike, but then again, I'm no racer boy.

I am just low on funds. But I'll figure out some other way to pay for stuff.

 

[LordOpie]

I don't ride it regularly, but I should ride it more often. It rides fantastic. The steel is very smooth and it really is a fine ride. Not the lightest bike, but then again, I'm no racer boy.

I am just low on funds. But I'll figure out some other way to pay for stuff.

Sorry for your stress, but it would be cheaper to take out an 18% interest loan on a credit card -- not that I advocate that -- than to sell it and try to buy a similar bike in the future.

But if you're not really into riding pavement and get all the riding you want and need from dirt, then yeah, sell it.

 

[MMcG]

No you are right (as is splat) I'll never recoup what I would lose if I sell this. Going to keep it.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Well,
Grant Peterson is a certified kook...
His philosophy, that I do agree with, is that most folks run too much drop, making only one handlebar postion comfortable, and by running your bars higher, you can comfortably use more positions. It's a good point. He is way too dogmatic about what is right for everyone, and for anyone who doesn't ahve $400 worth of Carradice bags and lusts after 30 year old cranksets, it is a little over the top.

MMCG... You bike is not comfortable because you have the nose of your saddle pointed down. And perhaps your reach is too long. Go get fit by a good coach or shop. From looking at your setup I would keep the same bar height, flatten out the seat (and maybe change it for soemthing with a softer nose, and most importantly, throw on a shorter reach and shallower drop bar.

 

[LordOpie]

I'm confused, I thought Mark's bike was comfortable for him?

 

[SuspectDevice]

Why would he be considering other fits? Any bike that has the nose of the seat pointed down isn't comfortable.

There, I said It. I'm as big a fascist as Grant Peterson Now.

 

[MMcG]

Quick question - with the Quill stem on my bike - can I raise the existing stem higher a little bit or am I stuck with what I've got?

Regarding the bars, yeah I actually would like different bars - definitely wider ones that's for sure as these are only 40s. Can you show me an example of a shallower drop bar that would be a good fit for a frame of my Serotta's era?

 

[MMcG]

I'm confused, I thought Mark's bike was comfortable for him?

The ride is comfy - due to the steel frame, but the cockpit could be dialed in a bit more.

I'll have to take a closer look at the bike regarding the saddle tilt. I'm pretty sure it is pretty damned level - but I might be wrong on that too.

 

[MMcG]

suspectdevice - what would be your take on this set up. Almost the opposite extreme to a Rivendell recommended set up?

 

[SuspectDevice]

As a mingey old grump all of my favorite bars have been discontinued, but look for something along the lines of this Salsa Poco bar. I personally hate "ergo" bars, as as someone trained in ergonomics, I can assure you aren't very ERGO. Look for a Ritchey WCS classic bar, a Salsa Estrada or a Cinelli Giro d'italia 66. An "italian" style bar is what you will like, not an "ergo" bar or the "belgian" style bar you have now.

personally, to me it looks like you nose is tilted down, putting weight on your hands, and thus you want higher bars to compensate for that...

 

[MMcG]

The bar on the frame now is a Cinelli

 

[MMcG]

Oh and I did a ride tonight and tilted the hoods "up" towards me a bit - helped a little - but the bars are too narrow for good climbing leverage. I mean they get the job done but some 44s would be better for me I think. I'll look into some other Cinelli options - maybe Nitto makes something that'd work and be more affordable?

 

[SuspectDevice]

suspectdevice - what would be your take on this set up. Almost the opposite extreme to a Rivendell recommended set up?

Well, This dude may well have a long torso and arms, making this setup work just fine. From his posts on this website, he sure as hell sounds like he understands biomechanics just fine, so I would assume it works fine for him. And remember, that is a compact frame, so it looks like a lot more drop...


Personally, my primary road bike is a '94 Ritchey, which i run minimal drop with. I can get away with that because of all sorts of mitigating factors like seat angle (steep), TT length (longer) and my herniated l5S1 disc (Bad). But I have other road bikes that I have considerably more drop with due to things like TT length, seat angle and even chainstay length.

A good fit is pretty much like going to see a palm reader. It's all bull****, but some folks are much better at bull****, and there is an art behind the deception to make folks happy. PM me and I'll give you the name of some really good fit folks down in CT that will make you infinitely more comfortable (if you are willing to spend about $200 for their service, and swapping some parts).

Tom Cruise, Save me with your black magic!

 

[MMcG]

I sent you a PM

 

[LordOpie]

Why would he be considering other fits? Any bike that has the nose of the seat pointed down isn't comfortable.

There, I said It. I'm as big a fascist as Grant Peterson Now.

Wow, so not true. I've got the nose of my saddle pointed down and it is comfortable.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Wow, so not true. I've got the nose of my saddle pointed down and it is comfortable.

Sorry, wrong answer.lthumbsdown:

 

[LordOpie]

Sorry, wrong answer.lthumbsdown:

oh, you're right, I'll go adjust it immediately. thank you!

 

[Wumpus]

Quick question - with the Quill stem on my bike - can I raise the existing stem higher a little bit or am I stuck with what I've got?

There should be a max line on the stem.

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

set up is personal preference. i like mine the way it is. it works for me and thats all that matters. go with whats comfy for you Mark

 

[splat]

Thank you Opie I have been Telling him that repeadedly !!

For the love of all that's holy, WHY?!

If it's money issues, sell blood

Mark I think I have a set of 44's some where around here.

 

[Toshi]

set up is personal preference. i like mine the way it is. it works for me and thats all that matters. go with whats comfy for you Mark

that looks like a racing setup. i'm a commuter, and this is roughly how my bike looks (old pic, now has full fenders and perhaps even another spacer under the stem thanks to a new fork)

 

[MMcG]

I just raised my bars up about a half inch or so......gotta love the quill stem for that. Helped a lot!

 

[RMR]

I read a (somewhat informal) study done by...Shimano, was it?...that said road riders spend more than 80% of their time on the tops of their bars. I believe this is because modern road fit has far too much drop (seat to bar top).

Very few people I know are comfortable on their hoods and even among those who can use 'em, they have to do so with straight arms. Have a look at pros in the '70s and earlier. Notice how they ride the hoods and the drops with almost horizontal forearms. Modern pros usually do, too. The difference is that they're doing so with most of a foot more drop. Normal people can't handle this.

My previous bike had about 14 cm of drop (even after flipping the stem to the +7° position) and I was one of the many who could barely use the drops - I might as well have had a flat-bar road bike. I was no faster in the drops because any aerodynamic gains were offset by biomechanical losses. And above all, it was uncomfortable.

I now ride a custom with 6 cm of drop. I'm very comfortable on the tops and hoods and I can use the drops without suffering unduly. My usual position is on the hoods with a significant bend in my elbows, almost like the classic style. I can even ride the drops with bent elbows, though I wouldn't want to do that for too long.

There's no virtue in riding a bike with a foot of drop. If you can't handle the position - and very few of us can - then you're going to be uncomfortable and, ironically, slower than you would be on a more comfortable bike.

 

[Mr. Hankey]

Bike fit is definitely personal preference. However I don't see what this obsession lately with jacking the bars up higher. The reason people lower their bars, and raise the seat is performance. My seat is approx. 2-3" higher than my bars. It is setup so that my legs are comfortably extended, and my bars are low enough that I can get into an efficient position to make the most of the pedal strokes. I guarantee if I raised my bars I would loose speed. For that matter I have always wished my bars would go lower so I ordered a new bike with a smaller head tube.

I mean lets face it, road bikes are about speed and efficiency. If I wanted comfort, I would ride my 8" travel DH bike on the street. The 2.7" Nevegal/Blue Groove combo would work wonderfully. I ride allot on my roadie this morning as a matter of fact I rode a little ride 6 miles at a 20mph pace. IF I didn't have so much to do today I would still be ridding, and get 60 miles or so in. I would do this, and be perfectly comfortable, and average somewhere between 18-20mph, depending on the amount of hills, and times I have to stop for idiot motorists.

I guess what I am saying is, put your purse down Alice, lower your bars get in a tuck, and haul ass. Thats what I have a road bike for, what do you have your road bike for?

 

[LordOpie]

I guarantee if I raised my bars I would loose speed.

Why do you say that? Is your neck already so low that you're choking yourself? Are you so low in the drops that your wrist is hitting the bar-end and annoying you?

I mean lets face it, road bikes are about speed and efficiency. If I wanted comfort, I would ride my 8" travel DH bike on the street.

Come on now, that's so absurd that it's negating any point you're trying to make.

 

[Mr. Hankey]

Why do you say that? Is your neck already so low that you're choking yourself? Are you so low in the drops that your wrist is hitting the bar-end and annoying you? Come on now, that's so absurd that it's negating any point you're trying to make.

I feel like it needs to be lower. I never ride on the top of the bars. I use 3 positions. My hoods are way low on the bars, and I grip them, and lay my wrists flat, and get as low as possible. the bars fit real nice like this. The next is on the drops. The third is no hands on the bars, forearms on the tops, mimicking the results of an aerobar on the bike. They all work good. Now if I put my hands on the tops in any way shape or form, I instantly loose gobs of speed. You are faster with less frontal area. it may feel weird at first to get low, but uncomfortable, I would say no. You just have to get used to it. I really feel like you guys are cheating yourselves with the bars all apehangerish. There is a reason pros get low. Low is fast. Sure the bars being higher and a more upright ridding position might feel more natural, but I wouldn't say it is more comfortable.

 

[RMR]

...I don't see what this obsession lately with jacking the bars up higher. The reason people lower their bars, and raise the seat is performance. My seat is approx. 2-3" higher than my bars...

Just so you know, you're already running a jacked-up bar. A 2"-3" drop is super high by modern standards. My set-up, now that I've raised the bar about 10 cm, still has more drop than yours.

Put your hands in the drops. That's the height of many bikes' TOPS. Now do you see why people are "jacking the bars up higher"?

Also, MMcG, do you think you could replace that huge picture with a link? It's really making a mess of the page.

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

mine is right at 4 1/2 inches of drop. any lower and it wouldnt be usable for me. its the best compromise between aero and comfort ( for the longer road races). see post #32

 

[Mr. Hankey]

Just so you know, you're already running a jacked-up bar. A 2"-3" drop is super high by modern standards. My set-up, now that I've raised the bar about 10 cm, still has more drop than yours.

Put your hands in the drops. That's the height of many bikes' TOPS. Now do you see why people are "jacking the bars up higher"?

Exactly I want it lower that what I currently have. Thats why I got a new frame it won't go any lower. I already stated that. Reading comprehension ownz you.