[tlproject7]

allright so my friend is telling me that the roco has a perfectly linear compresion and that i will bottom it out all the time. i know it has no platform, but isnt it still progressive? i know it is a very plush shock. im looking for something that will help give me a little more "stick" to the ground for down hillin.
this would be put on faith, and is replacing swinger 4 way.
suggestions, thoughts?

 

[phlegm]

The compression shim stack can be easily adjusted for a more progressive feel.

 

[tlproject7]

any chance any one knows the weight of comparssion between the two shocks? (roco and a swinger 4way)

 

[julian_dh]

weight between shocks is like weight between socks no much at all.

 

[vitox]

any chance any one knows the weight of comparssion between the two shocks? (roco and a swinger 4way)

i think the steel shaft roco is a bit lighter than the swinger, the alloy "WC" roco should be even lighter. not confirmed but im fairly certain about this.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

The compression shim stack can be easily adjusted for a more progressive feel.

That won't make it more progressive, just increase the compression damping. It'll still be entirely speed sensitive. 5ths/Swingers/DHXs are progressive in that the compression damping depends on where in the travel the shock is, as well as how fast the shaft is moving. The Roco, to my knowledge, is not like that.

 

[tlproject7]

so your saying doesnt ramp up? i believe it does by putting air in it

 

[jon-boy]

Yep, you can increase the chamber pressure.

 

[tlproject7]

which will increase the compression only near the end of the travel?

 

[SKYWAYBUZZ]

No overall.

 

[tlproject7]

so the answer to my question is?/? is it not progresive at all?

 

[davep]

There is no 'progressivness' to the damping. A shimmed piston's damping characteristics will remain relatively constant with changing internal pressure(there might be some small changes, but look at the psi range of the Rocco as an example of the unimportance of specific pressures). The shock will however exibit a progressive spring characteristic due to the compressing air chamber within the shock. As the shock shaft enters the shock body, it displaces oil that in turn must compress the internal floating piston (or bladder). This compressing air imparts a force to extend the shock, something like a mini adjunct air spring. The higher the starting pressure, the more spring force will be exerted by the air. The pressure of the air changes as the inverse of the air volume. So as the volume approaches zero, the spring force approaches infinity.

FYI the two 'most' talked and 'raved' about shocks around right now(the Rocco may soon join this list), the Avalanche and Pushed Foxes, work in the same way.

 

[tlproject7]

i have no idea what that meant

 

[davep]

The translation is that a traditional shimmed damper like the Rocco is the accepted and long proven standard for shock damping. This technology is used for just about any (stock as well as high performance custom aftermarket) damper for motorsports.

The bicycle world latched on to 'platform' shocks due to the low speed oscilation input that they see (pedaling causes bob). The trade off, is the lack of plushness of a simple shimmed piston damper.

If you want DH plushness (more concerned with smooth squish than 'anti-bob') a shock with Roco style damping will provide this the best (IMHO as well as Push, and Avy). When set up propperly you will have a very active very plush ride that does not bottom excessivly.
Keep in mind, that a 'hucking' set up will require a stiffer spring on any shock than a 'DH' set up.

As a semi-proof, I have not heard of ANY bottoming problems with the posters here with Roccos.

Anyone have excessive bottoming with a Rocco??

 

[evilbob]

i think the steel shaft roco is a bit lighter than the swinger, the alloy "WC" roco should be even lighter. not confirmed but im fairly certain about this.

That is exactly correct.

 

[dante]

Anyone have excessive bottoming with a Rocco??

just the opposite for me, bottomed less than the DHX that I've used. haven't had a ton of time, but not sure if it ever did bottom...

 

[renegade999]

i put a roco on my old sunday. oh boy. took off all the hard edge the old 5th had for me. was awesome. then i sold er off. i do miss that bike. but i got the new one arriving whenever.

 

[evilbob]

Ok couple of things here.......

1) Excellent explination of what goes on in these shocks by Davep well done

2) If you can imagine a 888 in function and feel but on the back of your bike, that is pretty much a simple description of what you get with the ROCO.

3) In answer to the bottoming question, no probs! I'm 220lbs with no gear so must be pretty heavy with and I can't say I have felt my ROCO bottom. I know it has but it is such a non event that I am left with just riding. Currently I ride a Demo 9 with 05 888 (w/comp sleeve) and ROCO with Ti spring. Went to Whistler the last weekend and I really believe this to be the most ballanced suspension I have ever ridden. Never did it do anything strange, never felt it kick, bottom hard, spike, pack, wallow bla bla bla. The best thing was when I wanted to shorten a corner entry to catch a buddy in front or simply change lines but the only line available was the worst breaking chop, you know the kind that flat out pounds your hands and turns them into weak non functioning claws. Bah, what chop all was smooth. I run 2.5 Kenda Nevegals with 30 psi front and 35 psi rear so it wasn't the tires takeing the edge off and I felt like I was on a slot car track when I wanted to turn anywhere so I think the suspension had the wheels pretty glued to the terrain. Even though the bike felt completely stuck to the ground when I wanted to boost a jump or table it did exactly what I wanted exactly as I expected it too.

4) I have had a Swinger 6way and a DHX on my Demo. I could never realy get the Swinger to perform the way I wanted it to. The DHX I liked but it still didn't feel ballanced with the front. The ROCO felt too active for the first 5 min. in the parking lot and that sensation completely went away the moment I hit dirt and has felt right ever sense.

You really can't go wrong with the ROCO or DHX or Avy but for bang for the buck return I feel the best choice to be the ROCO. If your thinking of trailing your big bike also try the new ROCO TST very nice.

Good luck with your choice and your riding.

 

[Jono]

As a semi-proof, I have not heard of ANY bottoming problems with the posters here with Roccos.

Anyone have excessive bottoming with a Rocco??

I've just got myself a roco WC - I found that it bottomed out when crossing a 15-20m long large root field (i.e.10 - 15cm tall roots), but with a little bit of adjustment on the rebound (i.e. less rebound) got it to perform nicely.

The only odd thing with the shock was that the spring "length" required a bit of effort to get the preload plate in place. God knows what I'll need to do to get it out again...

(I'm running my roco as a 5th element replacement on a VP-free)

 

[Jono]

...one further question is about spring weight. I used to run a 400 on my 5th, but I've got 500 on the roco.

Which seems about right for unloaded (i.e. no dakine pack on), but a bit soft for loaded weight (I'm about 70-72 Kg depending on whether I've had a dump recently ).

Are there any guides to correct spring rate, or do I just need to do a "sit on them until you find the right one" guess. (I'm wanting to get a ti spring, but not wanting to fork over the cash for the wrong rate).

Jono

 

[Joey]

Are there any guides to correct spring rate, or do I just need to do a "sit on them until you find the right one" guess. (I'm wanting to get a ti spring, but not wanting to fork over the cash for the wrong rate).

Jono

Seems to depend a bit on suspension design according to this:

http://www.tftunedshox.com/springcalc.htm

 

[Prechrysler]

I have a question. How does the Roco perform on dirt jumps when compared to a platform shock such as the 5th or DHX? As in, is it capable of having more *pop* or does it suck up momentum more?

 

[Bikael Molton]

I went from a 5th Element to the Roco on my 7point, and it definitely pops more naturally and consistently. I never realized how much "feel" that the 5th was robbing until I switched. Until the swap, I figured DWlinks just felt like that.

I don't own a DHX, so I can't give you a comparison there.

-r

 

[Eren]

There is no 'progressivness' to the damping. A shimmed piston's damping characteristics will remain relatively constant with changing internal pressure(there might be some small changes, but look at the psi range of the Rocco as an example of the unimportance of specific pressures). The shock will however exibit a progressive spring characteristic due to the compressing air chamber within the shock. As the shock shaft enters the shock body, it displaces oil that in turn must compress the internal floating piston (or bladder). This compressing air imparts a force to extend the shock, something like a mini adjunct air spring. The higher the starting pressure, the more spring force will be exerted by the air. The pressure of the air changes as the inverse of the air volume. So as the volume approaches zero, the spring force approaches infinity.

FYI the two 'most' talked and 'raved' about shocks around right now(the Rocco may soon join this list), the Avalanche and Pushed Foxes, work in the same way.

davep is either really smart and knows his ****



. . .. or hes bein doin a lot of copy and pastin'

 

[Prechrysler]

I went from a 5th Element to the Roco on my 7point, and it definitely pops more naturally and consistently. I never realized how much "feel" that the 5th was robbing until I switched. Until the swap, I figured DWlinks just felt like that.

I don't own a DHX, so I can't give you a comparison there.

-r

Thanks. For some reason I always felt like a platform shock would be a better jumper, but what the hell do I know... Also, the Roco doesn't need to be specially tuned for DWlink, correct?

 

[davep]

davep is either really smart and knows his ****



. . .. or hes bein doin a lot of copy and pastin'

Sorry that was all off of the top of my head. I am just an old nerd that likes this kind of thing, that's all.
Shock damper tech is quite old in reality. These ideas and theories have been around since the 30's (??) or earlier..

This guy put together a great site with LOTS of info with specifics to motorcycles and bicycles.

Great site! http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/



Jono...that is refered to packing down. your shock could not extend fast enough for the next bump..and next...and next...you get the pic. EZ fix, glad you got it sorted. As for spring rates, check the link above @ TFT. It seems pretty good imho, for racing type of spring rates. If you are a big hucker, the recomendations might be a little soft.

 

[Eren]

^^ i take it you know your stuff
i woulda done thumbs up, buts its the closet smilie i could find

 

[Bikael Molton]

My Roco is not expressly tuned for the DWLink. I think it's usually the LSC (platform) that screws with the DWLink... and the Roco doesn't have a platform. The old 5ths, in particular, needed special DWlink-tuning. I am guessing the DHXs that come on IHs now are not stock tuned either.

The IH guys were scoping my bike at Diablo recently and suggested I back off on the HSC as well... but I'm still experimenting with the HSC on the Roco, as it's the first shock I've ever had with adjustable HSC.

I bet the Roco could perform even better if I had it customized for my weight and riding style (and the DWLink) by PUSH or someone, but so far I'm pretty dang happy with it out of the box.

-r

Thanks. For some reason I always felt like a platform shock would be a better jumper, but what the hell do I know... Also, the Roco doesn't need to be specially tuned for DWlink, correct?

 

[phlegm]

That won't make it more progressive, just increase the compression damping. It'll still be entirely speed sensitive. 5ths/Swingers/DHXs are progressive in that the compression damping depends on where in the travel the shock is, as well as how fast the shaft is moving. The Roco, to my knowledge, is not like that.

I worded that all wrong... I'm not sure what I was trying to say, though.. Maybe it's just in my head... It essentially feels like it opens up easy, but maintains a heavier linear compression rate mid-high stroke - not progressive, no.

 

[Biscuit]

This guy put together a great site with LOTS of info with specifics to motorcycles and bicycles.

Great site! http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/

Hey, I ride with that guy! One of the coolest nerds I know.

... funny thing is. His stuff never works right... I've had to loan him a bike before, which he promptly got to malfunction.

And FWIW: I ride a 19" 2005 Sunday, 180lb agressive, smooth rider.
- 888, one med, one firm spring, low speed comp all the way out, high speed comp a few turns in.
- ROCO WC, 350lb spring, compression all the way out, playing with the psi right now (currently about 185).

Best feeling, tracking, cornering, pedaling, everything setup I've ever ridden. It's almost telepathic.
And I just found out it only weighs 42.5lbs with a very solid build (never cared, but my LBS weighed it).