roy moore by any other name (gay marriage)

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by $tinkle, Feb 17, 2004.

  1. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    after reading a few of the blurbs re: gay marriage in san francisco over the past few days, i observed similarities 'tween judge roy moore & gavin newsom.

    anybody have a problem w/ a left-wing activist mayor and an activist right-wing judge?

    what, if any, punishment should become mayor newsom?
     

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  2. derekbob

    derekbob Monkey

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    If the people of SF arent happy with him, they should opt not to reelect him. Cant you conservatives rest easy knowing hes gonna burn in hell?
     
  3. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    why would you suggest he be punished?
     
  4. El Jefe

    El Jefe Dr. Phil Jefe

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    Punishment? If by punishment you mean a response to actively challenging the idea and the constitutionality of marriage as a strictly heterosexual option? I think he should be held in very high regard and receive accolades for his efforts to end discrimination against homosexuals.
     
  5. Serial Midget

    Serial Midget Al Bundy

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    I thought for sure SF would turn into a piller of salt and yet nothing seems to have happened. Maybe by this time next week this assualt on the "American Family" will result in the second coming??? Time will tell. ;)
     
  6. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    for the same reasons that others have suggested judge moore be impeached, disbarred, converted to islam, etc.

    do you think punishment should come to either/both/just one? if punishment is your decision, to what extent?

    insomuch as many people were offended by judge moore's actions, many are also offended by the SF mayor's actions.

    i see resolve being steeled by advocates of both sides. i don't see inroads being made in either situation. do you?
     
  7. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    A major and a judge ain't the same thing. Plus, Moore defied a direct order from a higher court, the major of San Francisco hasn't seemed to do that yet.

    I'm still waiting for my one rational and well thought out reason to not let homosexuals marry, by the way.
     
  8. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I haven't followed the story that closely... why should either be punished?

    What little I read suggested that the Mayor researched the legalities and felt comfortable enough to proceed.
     
  9. ummbikes

    ummbikes Don't mess with the Santas

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    We heterosexuals have no room to point fingers at gay marriage. The institution has been dead for years.

    Who Wants To Marry a Millionare, 50% divorce rate, Brittney and that friend of her's.
     
  10. Serial Midget

    Serial Midget Al Bundy

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    I have a 100% divorce rate - way higher than then the national average. :monkey:
     
  11. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    My sources at CNN say:

    Which is pretty similar to the whole Moore deal, really. If every mayor and judge just decided to go off trying to be a revolutionary, well, you can imagine the type of world we'd have. Though I supported Moore's intentions...he still broke the law. And all the lefties were sure to let him know about it.
     
  12. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    quite true: not yet.
    jurist scalia (yer dawg!) waxed prophetic when he said:
    but, what does this right-wing nut know? Dani Eyer (yer dawg for realz), executive director of the ACLU of Utah, who was not a party to the polygamy case, had this to say:
    wouldn't that be something? the concept of marriage being wide open? It sounds rather alarmist to suggest that this would lead to widowed grandmothers marrying their grandson fresh outta college not looking for a serious relationship but still wanting to have benefits bestowed upon his dear old g-ma.

    so let me pose this direct question to you & others who view this issue your way: allow one-on-one gay marriages, and then shut the doors for all time, thusly prohibiting people from marrying underage/next-of-kin/multiple animals/items of possession so they can't be re-possessed....? In other words, those who are right behind them in seeking for their "right" to be wed, however they want to define "wed"?

    let's have this discussion.
     
  13. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Isn't San Fran just another version of reality TV..???








    Speaking of which, did anyone catch Sunday's episode of The Surreal Life... the one where they visit a spa that turns out to be a nudist camp..???
     
  14. Tenchiro

    Tenchiro Attention K Mart Shoppers

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    Marriage these days seems little more than a niche industry to help sell overpriced dresses, jewelry and vacations, then later line the pockets of divorce attorneys.

    The sanctity of marriage has long since been trampled by the very people looking to "protect" it now. Certainly homosexuals can't do a worse job with it than has already been done.

    As for dealing with that mayor, it's California who cares? :monkey:
     
  15. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    as did judge moore. i believe judge moore leaned on his oath of office for his defense, however weak.
     
  16. the law

    the law Monkey

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    Well, not really. This is a quote by the group opposing the issuance of the licences. My understanding is that the major is basing his decision to let gay folks marry on the California Constitution which has been construed to provide far stronger equal protection provisions than the Federal Consitution. Insofar as the California law is in violation of the constitution, the constitution previals. While I cannot be certain, I suspect that the city attorney approved that construction. Obviously, if the court holds that the construction of the constitution is inaccurate, then the major should act in accordance with such a ruling. I feel that an analogy to Judge Moore is only possible if the Major were to then defy a ruling by the court.
     
  17. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I understand your concerns and thinking, but that's a slippery slope argument and each case needs to be considered on it's own merits.
     
  18. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    .
     
  19. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    pet peeve of this thread: major? Stop it :p :D
     
  20. derekbob

    derekbob Monkey

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    Ive heard alot of paraphrasing of california law saying that it only condones a marriage between a man and woman, if its so clearly stated how come no one will quote the actual law?
     
  21. the law

    the law Monkey

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    Maybe its just me, but you sound quite paranoid. Do you also believe in UFOs? I am not familiar with the polygamy case, but based on you snippets alone, it seems that this precedent would allow the state to outlaw any marriage that is "detrimental to society". It should be fairly easy to show that the generally far-fetched scenarios you outlined are detrimental to society, particularly if as you suggest they are done for financial gain. Setting aside obvious (and more important) moral concerns, gramothers marrying their grandchildren is also detrimental to society because any of their children would more likely have serious birth defects. I will not even address your suggestion that allowing homosexuals to marry would open the door for people to marry animals. Get your mind out of the gutter!!!!
     
  22. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    that's the main part of my point: today, polygamy doesn't have much of a chance of (again) being legally recognized any more than the other cases which have yet to be recognized.

    however...

    would you not agree that the defenses for preventing the sanctioning of these hitherto illegal marriages erodes?

    a slipperly slope indeed!

    p.s. pet peeve: misuse of "it's" :)
     
  23. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    findlaw's crawler for just the state of utah provided a treasure trove of writs, decisions & briefs. sorry for not providing it earlier, along with (assumed to be read) news stories.
    agreed, it should be. BTW, many a straight marriage is legally had for financial gain, exclusively. I refer you to the enlisted corps of our active duty military for ample supporting evidence.
    you start making a case based on genetics, & the aclu would (rightly so) be on your back.
    is incest wrong for society, or just the society you would prefer? So, kindly make the case for preventing the sanctioning of the aformentioned "far-fetched scenarios", as they represent a detriment to society. You won't find disagreement in me, but be advised i'll be looking for application to keep marriage between one man & one woman.
     
  24. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I wouldn't. There's a big difference between marrying another human being and marrying an animal or a minor... neither can give consent on their own.

    ya got me, but I normally use it properly :p
     
  25. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    Incest is not wrong for society if society as a whole finds it acceptable. If that happens, I'll move into the mountains, but the point of society is that we have a generally accepted agreed upon rules. If queers can get the marriage proposal accepted by the courts, then so be it.
     
  26. derekbob

    derekbob Monkey

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    I see your point Stinkle, and its given me some input as to why people would oppose same sex marriages (other than people who oppose gay marriages are gay and cannot accept the fact).

    But I believe there is a BIG line between homosexuality and Incest/Bestiality. And foolish as it may be, I have faith that our legislators can write a law that will allow gay marriages, and not leave the door open for every sexual deviant out there.
     
  27. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    ground rules: no animals.
    next, let's address minor's legal ability to give consent. Seems to be a loose determination, as proven by different states having different laws. Can the same reasons which keep minors from marrying either other minors or adults be applied to homosexuals? What does age have to do with homosexuality? And biology trumps all.

    Seriously, imagine a big enough lobby (funded by roman polanski) got together & beseeched a court which was sympathetic to their plea? That's how this is going down w/ gay marriage. If this is such a "right" to be enjoyed, why don't they go montgomery alabama & try this in judge moore's back yard?

    i don't have a desire to change laws on the books which speak against what i do in the bedroom w/ the consent of my wife. And do you know why? b/c it's personal. just like my faith. if personal feelings are held between two consenting adults, why have them legally validated at the behest of the majority? And i won't hear the "tyranny of the majority" argument. Just apply my questioning to removing age of consent laws, and you'll begin to understand my concern.
     
  28. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    that's simple and B&W... legal rights of partners. If a gay couple has been together for 50 yrs, one falls critically ill and unable to make decisions., everyone recognizes them as "married", but the family of the sick person has the right to determine the medical treatment and the future of that person. Do you think you should be allowed to make decisions on behalf of your comatose wife of 50 yrs?

    And for someone who argues well, you sure suck today with all this non-sense and red herrings and slippery slope arguments. What if polanski lobbied for legalizing incest :rolleyes: You're lucky those of us replying to you are bored at work :D
     
  29. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    First off:

    Moore and the mayor are not a good comparable, for the reasons I've stated above. A judge who ignores a direct order from the court is doing something that gets us common people thrown into jail. There is also some weird similarity here to the medicina marijuana debate, but nothing compared to Moore's escapades.

    Second:

    Scalia's quote:

    I say, so what. Land of the free and all that right? So what if you want to have two wives. Income tax based, you get a single spousal exemption, and you marry whoever you want, as long as
    all parties are able to legally consent. That very nicely cuts out the objection that if we let gays marry, it's only a matter of time before farmer Don brings a sheep to the courthouse steps. It's a ridiculous and offensive argument.

    Thirdly:

    I'd imagine that not being able to visit your lover in the hospital after you've been with him for 40 years and he is on his deathbed because the family doesn't approve of the fact that you are faggots would be reason enough.

    This is a civil issue, not a religious one. I'm not arguing that churches be made to marry gay couples. Hell, divorce is legal in this country, and it's frowned up on (and not even recognized) by some churches. So ditch the religious argument as well.

    The crux of the issue is this: Should we relegate a group of citizens to second class status due to the fact that they are practising an activity that some people find sinful, even if said activity is consensual and not against the law?

    It's a human rights issue, not a gay rights issue.
     
  30. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    because it comes down to a legal matter, what's so wrong with civil unions? i believe most (if not all) proposals for civil unions offers protection in this case, in addition to all the other legal reasons sought.

    my debating chops are rough, as i'm installing & configuring a new box on top of all the other crap i'm supposed to be doing. feh!

    sure hope you're right about age of consent/incest/bestiality all being red herrings / slippery slope. Time will surely mete this out.


    i see silver has weighed in again. must defer for later (damn work).
     
  31. RhinofromWA

    RhinofromWA Brevity R Us

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    To LordOpie and Silver......

    Regarding Hospital Decisions...What is the real problem?:

    Not being able to be married? So they can't make choices for their loved one.?

    or

    The fact that life partners don't have the say over "family" in this matter?

    In this matter, it seems to be a problem at the hospital and it's proceedures. Something as simple as a document giving choices to thier life partner in front of a Notary, if aloud, could fix that problem. Maybe?

    Just thinking out loud....(well kinda...internet you know ;) ) Do you guys think something like this could be passed with less drum beatingon both sides?

    Rhino
     
  32. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    you say that, but aren't the homosexuals who want so badly to have marriage legalized conspicuously silent on polygamy, et. al.? The others for whom marriage is not legal are certainly posturing to use rulings in this issue to bolster their case (see aclu ref i posted earlier). As far as this being offensive: since when does that matter? Haven't gay marriage opponents been offended by gay marriage proponents?

    if i ever left the impression that religion be a plank in this issue, allow me to state for the record that i'm not using that. It would be rediculous to make that claim when so many straights enjoy the priveledge of marriage w/o having any belief system, or one that is not "in line with the founding fathers". Yes, it's a civil issue. What's so wrong with civil unions? All legal aspects of a marriage are covered.

    Your argument of gay marriage opponents relegating a group of citizens to 2nd class status is a strawman, and most probably an inference from those who enjoy traditional marriage to keep it traditional. Just what is a 2nd class citizen? We don't have the caste system here, and if anyone is refused anything to which they are legally entitled, they can (and will) get their pants sued off.

    And don't try and draw a parallel that "slavery was legal then", as blacks were slaves, and you can tell someone's black - you can't tell someone's gay. And some one could make a claim for either team w/ no one to absolutely refute it.

    Human rights issue? that's a bit steep. Is age of consent a human rights issue?
     
  33. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I hope not... I like the drum beat :devil:

    There's two issues... legal marriage and religious marriage. Some people can seperate 'em, some can't *shrugs*
     
  34. RhinofromWA

    RhinofromWA Brevity R Us

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    It isn't an issue with the hospital, if something like I mentioned can be enacted.......

    It isn't a marrige issue at all. :confused: Legal or religious...
     
  35. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    LO and Silver are doing a far better job of arguing this than I can, but I wanted to weigh in on this one point. The above is a common misconception. A "civil union" is legally inferior to a "marriage" on both state and federal levels. It is not recognized by any state other than the issuing state (which applies to both taxes and hospital-related issues), and it is not recognized by the federal government (which applies to federal income and inheritance taxes). As soon as you call it "marriage" other states and the federal government must recognize it.

    This is why that seemingly innocuous change in wording is such a sticking point. As has been proven in the past, seperate but equal is inherently inequal.
     
  36. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    i'm no legal expert, but i seem to recall the military offered many a legal vehicle for personal dispensation which was readily recognized everywhere. In fact, it was mandated to fill out a power of attorney if you were ever on a mobility unit. Similarly, you may designate who gets your assets when you croak, so i still fail to see where a gay couple would get cheated if they did the most rudimentary paperwork, taking all of a few minutes. To use paperwork as a hurdle to one's rights (i'm not making this your argument), seems to fly in the face of one of the most successful activist communities in our midst.

    now it seems that this tiger changes its stripes to suit the argument. Is it a legal issue? Is it a gay rights issue? Is it a free speech issue?


    Also, has anyone but me considered how making gay marriage legal would have to first deal with various sodomy laws?

    Silver: so if the powers that be rule against the mayor, in effect handing down a ruling which would parallel judge moore, do you think that should be respectfully taken in stride, or bolster the cause for gay rights? (alternatively, both?) The law in question? This:
    ...which is a felony, btw. Punishable up to 3 years for each cert.
     
  37. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    As many a frustrated husband will tell you, marriage and sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

    I don't know what tiger you're talking about changing it's stripes. I was proving to you why legally it's not equal rights... not sure how you can seperate legal issues and equal rights issues when the law demands equal rights (did I jst run in a circle?). I haven't heard anything about freedom of speech.
     
  38. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Again, this doesn't address tax issues, and taking a step back, you're simply proving that a civil union is NOT equal to marriage, by the fact that yoe would HAVE to do the paperwork. No, paperwork isn't hard to do, but the point is not to save time or bureacracy, it's to provide equal protection under the law as constitutionally guaranteed.

    Will you admit after this brief discussion that a civil union is not equal to a marriage?
     
  39. ummbikes

    ummbikes Don't mess with the Santas

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    You and the Supreme Court of the United States of America.

    They ruled Texas's law unconstitutional this past summer.
     
  40. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    This whole thing raises a couple of concerns with me:

    1. Can two men or two women get married, even if they're not gay?

    2. Will the military be forced to reconize gay marriages within its ranks and pay the benefits that accompany, and what would the ramifications of that be?