[MttyTee]

In light of recent news of Tara and Matti, along with Steven Murray and Vanessa Quinn in the last year, I'm curious how everybody feels about this. Are we just hearing about these things more and more b/c of the internet or is it just purely circumstantial and bad timing? Is modern equipment allowing the riders/racers to get closer to that "fine line?" Are there a bigger incentives now a days taunting riders/racers to hang it out farther?

I feel that the equipment is getting better and better allowing riders comfort zones to get closer to the edge of control. I also think riders are pushing it a little farther, which is great! But along with better bicycles maybe we need better safety equipment.

1 year ago you could go to any motocross track in the country and look at the safety equipment an amateur rider was wearing; knee braces, a helmet and probably a roost gaurd, maybe 10% were wearing a foam neck brace. This is the same safety gear that the top pro's where using. About 6 months ago David Bailey, who is a former top pro motocross racer and now paraplegic from a motocross training accident, made a video and sent it out across the internet calling out top pro's by name, asking/ begging them to set an example and wear more protection. Today almost every big name pro is using the Leatt brace. Go out to a track today and I bet you'll see 80% of those same amateur riders are also using a Leatt brace. FYI, Vanessa Quinn has been using the Leatt brace all year after her injury.

I remember 10 years ago almost everybody on a DH course had some sort of upper body suit on, I can't remeber the last time I saw a top pro even wear elbow pads.

Just some food for thought.

 

[muddy beast]

I agree....but at the same time, when it comes to racing I see alot of full body armor. Its when people are screwing around like at DJs or something that you dont see much protection, and of course, thats when you get hurt.

...I know thats when I get hurt.

 

[General Lee]

I remember 10 years ago almost everybody on a DH course had some sort of upper body suit on, I can't remeber the last time I saw a top pro even wear elbow pads.
.

rennie, peaty, minnaar, matti, and many more are all in full suits. the stuff has just gotten much more minimal that it's hard to tell who has it and who doesn't.

i've ridden with people several times this year who thought i had no pads on and were surprised to see a full TLD suit on under the jersey.

 

[bdamschen]

I'm seriously considering getting one(Leatt brace). Does anyone know if they work wtih any helmet or if I'd need a larger moto one?

I don't really think body armor can save you from a bad neck or spin injury.

 

[MttyTee]

I just thought of another story that is somewhat relevant. I was at a local MX track with a friend of mine who is an aging pro. He's also had a spine injury that luckily wasn't life altering. Anyway, he's been struggling all year to get used to a new bike and keep up with some of the kids coming into the sport. Well, we were talking to the trainer of one of these kids and my buddy says, "I just can't get comfortable on this bike" and the trainers reply, "At the pace these kids are riding, you don't get comfortable anymore!"

I don't want to turn this into an Sam Hill fanboy/ hater thread, so insert your favorite top rider here, but as an example, I've been told Sam is riding extremely smooth and comfortable this year. If his competitors or kids on the move up through the ranks are going to try and get to his level they are going to have to get outside their comfort zone and find some speed. I guess the point is again, maybe we need better safety equipment.

 

[IVCrider]

I'm seriously considering getting one(Leatt brace). Does anyone know if they work wtih any helmet or if I'd need a larger moto one?

I don't really think body armor can save you from a bad neck or spin injury.

The leatt brace will work with any full face helmet. I've also been contemplating on getting one ever since my friend broke his back at n* this year(he has full body movement)
http://www.leatt-brace.com/

 

[Zutroy]

I don't think it's happening more than in the past. This past couple weeks has been a fluke with Tara and Matti. Body armour went out of style a couple years ago, but it seems to be making a come back. Even guy like Hannah who led the no pads group are now all suite up.

The Leatt brace is really the first thing that's come out that looks like it might make a difference in neck injuries. Neck rolls don't really do anything for the spine, more protection for your collar bone. It still can't prevent them all, but it certainly can help. I'm a firm believer in spinal protection, even if it only helps a small percentage of the time, it sways the odds just that much more for me, that i'm going to walk away from the wreck.

In reality sports like football(American) and gymnastics probably have higher spinal injury rates.

 

[norbar]

rennie, peaty, minnaar, matti, and many more are all in full suits. the stuff has just gotten much more minimal that it's hard to tell who has it and who doesn't.

i've ridden with people several times this year who thought i had no pads on and were surprised to see a full TLD suit on under the jersey.

I think I've seen some of them use only knee guards with no shin guards. But ie. in earthed 4 you can see some people on WC with no elbow protection(Kovaric i think).

Yet I think the worst example is given not by WC competitors but by FR riders in the movies. That's probably a bigger problem as more kids now wanna be like the slopestyle/NWD guys and its quite common for them to wear minimal protection(helmet + knee pads). They are the ones that should make an example.

Personaly I would never resign from any protection I can get not because I don't like pain but because any injury will prevent me from riding and that is what I keep in mind(well 5 months of rehabilitation this year make me relize the pain of not riding even more [unlucky, protection on] )

 

[Bikerpunk241]

Sure, you see less pads than you used to, but at the same time, would a standard dainese MTB specific suit have helped to prevent these injuries? I did the same thing Matti did about 5 years ago, wearing full protection, it's going to happen no matter how much protection you wear. As for the Leatt Brace, it'll help prevent neck injuries, sure, but then you get the added strain lower on your back from the stiffness at your neck. There is no fool proof way to protect yourself. In the way of getting rid of protection, a lot of people are in favor of comfort while riding. I know I have lessened the ammount I wear, though still always protect the core, because I found that having pads on my arms increased my arm pump 10 fold, making me feel safer riding without armor than with just because I could hold on for a full run. Trade offs is what it works out to. You make the call.

 

[[Tha]Shovla]

I always suit up and 90% of my training friends do too. Sure we have out local warmup tracks that have more pedaling than downhill but after 2 runs of that its full skin suits or all top and all bottom. For me the body armor is a krutch, especially when FR'in. I dont ride parks so all our local built gnarly backwood eastcoast rocky trails are gonna tear you up if you take a tumble. I mentally cant do it if i dont have full pads on because i know that at least if i push it a little too much and take a spill im not gonna get cut up, or break something, i can just tuck and roll.

And as for the pros' i think the worst thing i ever saw was Kranked progression. nothing but freeriders wearing t-shirts. skid lids, and shorts or jeans doing huge stunts that they created and have practiced over and over for a long time. I think that the pro's should promote safety for the public because people want to be like them. If you see Jamie Goldman backflip a 20 footer wearing a t-shirt that doesnt say much for safety and it tells the youth who might not think that he probably rode that stunt for days/weeks/months until he could perform that trick in his sleep that its ok to not wear protection. Pro's need to support protection, even if they dont wear it.

 

[S.K.C.]

I had a pretty bad wreck at Diablo earlier this season and my Dainese Safety Jacket Next saved me a few fractured vertebrae.

Slopestyle events seem to have a bit more of a "snowboarder vibe" to them, meaning that how you look, factors in to the image of it. (I can say that - been snowboarding for over 14 years now -not meant to be a slight against snowboarders)

I rode with this industry guy at Diablo who runs an ad/design firm out in Seattle. He's a really good rider who can rip whether it be DH racing or DJ, and he said to me - always pad up.

This same guy is also an ex-SEAL...

...'nuff said.

:biggrin:

 

[Zutroy]

Sure, you see less pads than you used to, but at the same time, would a standard dainese MTB specific suit have helped to prevent these injuries? I did the same thing Matti did about 5 years ago, wearing full protection, it's going to happen no matter how much protection you wear. As for the Leatt Brace, it'll help prevent neck injuries, sure, but then you get the added strain lower on your back from the stiffness at your neck. There is no fool proof way to protect yourself. In the way of getting rid of protection, a lot of people are in favor of comfort while riding. I know I have lessened the ammount I wear, though still always protect the core, because I found that having pads on my arms increased my arm pump 10 fold, making me feel safer riding without armor than with just because I could hold on for a full run. Trade offs is what it works out to. You make the call.

A Leatt brace wouldn't tranfer any energy to your lower back it doesn't work that way. It's main purpose is to slow down the movement of your head to never allow your head to gain enough energy to damage your neck. It's supported on your shoulders and sternum.

 

[Tootrikky]

I think the best attitude towards body armour is to wear what makes you ride with confidence, whether that entails minimal protection or full on double upped Bender jaw drop style. Whatever you do don't let the crusty old dh'r who preaches that every dh'r who isn't suited up up is a dumbass or conversely the socal bro brah who says pads are for pussies, influence your gut instinct.

 

[deadatbirth]

any amount of body armor wont stop a freak accident from happening. most body armor wont protect against broke clavicles, which is the most broke bone for mountain bikers. and even if matti, tara or anyone else had on armor, if a impact is great enough, it can unfortunately happen to anyone.
its just unfortunate that it happened to these great riders or to any rider or any athlete.

 

[DylanDeanDesign]

any amount of body armor wont stop a freak accident from happening. most body armor wont protect against broke clavicles, which is the most broke bone for mountain bikers. and even if matti, tara or anyone else had on armor, if a impact is great enough, it can unfortunately happen to anyone.
its just unfortunate that it happened to these great riders or to any rider or any athlete.

yah, it's unfortuante that the "Freak" accidents seem to be the ones to cause most damage... even though Tara crashed during a race, it still sounded like it was in an area that she would normally have no issue with... & matti had something snag in his rear wheel. kinda hard to prevent against everything.

Most people here sound like they pad up during the big race runs, or big gnarly rides (i do as well) & i know that the protection saves you tremendously! i wear mine all the time at the bigger races... but freak accidents can happen anywhere. I broke my ankle pretty bad on a stupid XC ride... would i have padded up? no. but it's just something that we need to realize that it "could happen". At Fontana (local dh series & first NMBS of the year)... the courses tend to be so tame that i don't pad up more than knee/arm guards. I realize i could get hurt, but because of the heat & "tameness" of the course, i elect not to. The area is easily within my skill level, but i acknowlege that i could get seriously hurt there.

I would think most people benefit from wearing full suits at the bigger gnarlier course, but it's hard to say what is gnarly to who. i know a lot of people wear full suits at Fontana. we just need to acknowlege we can get hurt anywhere & anytime.

In regards to the Leatt brace... i think it's a great product. but i don't own one. I might consider it for the bigger courses... i donno. i've heard that a number of top pros are going to test it out this offseason... but we'll see who'll run them in '08. it too may be "just for the bigger courses" for somepeople

anyway, i'm rambling... obviously you're STUPID if you don't wear a helmet. but for the rest.... people need to set their own limits...not just do what "looks" cool. i'm amazed seeing these guys haul down the worlds track w/ no pads... but i would NEVER do it!

 

[doc gravity]

This seems like one of those posts where most of the replies have something to say, but probably aren't hitting everything, this one is probably the same.
It may well be that there hasn't been an increase in serious injuries, particularly spinal injuries, but there is constant pressure to move up to the next rung on the ladder and by the nature of the sport this will result in injuries.
Could these injuries be prevented by more riders wearing armor? For some of the injuries that have everyone's recent attention (Tara's and Matti's), probably not. Body armor is good for a traumatic blow to the back, but as already pointed out, it's not going to do much for an axial loading to the spine, or severe flexion/extension injuries.
The Leatt brace is an interesting concept. It is clearly designed to prevent flexion/extension injuries at the cervical spine level, and advertises some degree of protection against axial loading as well. There were two significant cervical injuries in the Colorado area in the last year that I'm aware of, and perhaps this style of protection could have helped in both of those circumstances. Just not enough information on this device yet to say for sure.
Body armor will not help for clavicle fractures, or extremity fractures, but it may well help with blunt injuries to the trunk (spleens, livers, ribs, etc).
Regardless of how well it works, there seems to be no doubt that you could reduce the number of injuries in the beginner-intermediate ranks if more of them wore armor. If they saw more pros wearing armor and the expectation was that all racers wear armor, it would help. As posted above, some pros wear armor and you can hardly tell. It would not be fair to ask someone making a living with their riding to change their armor just for appearance. They may have already calculated the best balance of protection versus speed for their circumstances.
A complex issue, made worse by recent events. It seems if somebody is fence-sitting, they might positively influence someone younger or less skilled if they opted to wear protection.
Just my .02,
Scott

 

[.Pit Steelers.]

I for one feel like it's just a freak accident, but it is going on more then it should. Actully my first day in Mammoth this summer my freind broke his neck on Velocity. Went down to the Mammoth hospitol and as soon as they saw the x-rays he was flown out for emergency surgery in Reno to release the pressure off his spine. long rehab just came back to Hawaii this week, and this happend in late July.

 

[Tully]

Personally, I wear knee and elbow padding anytime I ride anything that gets me airborne much (e.g. local freeride areas that have lots of jumps, but very smooth terrain), which usually includes the BMX track. If I'm ride rougher terrain--basically anything that could be considered DH--I wear full armor. I think it's a good idea for safety's sake, but it also helps me ride more confidently, knowing that it's much less unlikely that a tumble or two will end my day.

As for neck braces and such, I really can't imagine riding with one, and I'm not sure I think it's necessary given that the chances of falling in a manner injurious to my neck are very low, especially seeing as I'm not pushing the limit day in and day out. That being said, it does seem like a good idea, since it only takes one crash to do irreversible damage, and a neck injury would most likely be far worse than anything my body armor protects me from.

 

[PUSHIND]

As a user of the Leatt Brace I thought I'd chime in.

I originally got the Leatt Brace after watching David Bailey's "stand for something" video on you tube that was broadcast throughout the Moto industry. I made the initial mistake of getting it out of the box, strapping it on and rolling onto the Moto track. After a few laps it was already starting to bother me and cause discomfort and I wasn't too optimistic. That night I spent the better part of two hours trying all of the different adjustment items and ranges that the brace offers to try to give it a fair shake.

Needless to say, when properly setup you practically don't know it's there. You'll never see me ride without it. In fact two weeks ago at the track while charging with some friends I tucked my front wheel while trying to get down the inside and eneded up head-planting in a pretty fast right hand sweeper. I actually dragged my head long enough that I was able to think to myself "wow, I can't believe how the front of my helmet is being held in place by the brace". It was a big enough off that I had to sit on the side of the track for a couple of minutes to get it together, but I was able to finish out the day without even neck strain.

As for a DH application, I wore the Leatt Brace for the first time on my MTB at Sol-Vista here in CO recently. Again, the same result as with my Moto. When properly adjusted it doesn't interfere with DH riding.

My hope is to see more riders using them.

Darren

 

[Trailhead]

...from Tara's MySpace. That's Stephen Murray.

As far as the discussion goes, whenever I feel I'm gonna hit the ground head first, I make a conscious effort to put out my hands and try to roll. Anything to prevent doing a lawndart. But what happens to most who are injured is that it happens so fast that they probably didn't have time to react.

I wish more protection would be the norm too, but these days it just doesn't conform to "the look". You all know what I mean. We see it in videos all the time. But on the flipside, it ain't no fun trying to ride while looking like a stormtrooper either.

I have no answers, I'm just venting/releasing anxiety about the potential life changing hazards of the sport I love so much. But this is a great discussion, though unfortunately necessary. And this is why RM rules.

Be careful out there guys.

Healing vibes out to both of them.


-TH-

(My apologies in advance if anyone has issues (legal, emotional, copyright, whatever) with me using this pic. Lemme know and I'll remove it)
Attached Thumbnails

 

[slothy]

hey pushind, thats spine tingling stuff......makes me want one.....
how much did you pay for your brace....
does it interfere with body amour etc..... does your helmet fasten on normally?

 

[Toshi]

this thread has inspired me: if i ever get back into fr/dh i will wear a leatt brace.

 

[mtakahas]

Leatt brace looks interesting, and a good idea! I saw some guy wearing one today at Northstar... After reading this thread, I did a google search and found the website... I think I'm going to consider buying one... not cheap though - starts at 400 bucks, but of course it's worth it in hindsight - if you ever crash and suffer an injury... Seems like they can be produced for a lower price, but I realize there's not a ton of companies out there making these things... if it catches on, maybe we'll se some of the prices drop down to a more affordable 200.00???

 

[ChrisKring]

I have been wearing a Leatt Brace full time for Moto since March. I does not interfere at all on the dirt bike. As with Darrin, I was influenced by the David Bailey video. I was on the fence and that helped me decide to do the right thing.

I followed the directions for the set up before I put it on. My Fox chest protector had to be modified a bit to allow me to get my elbows up. Once I had that done, I don't even notice it at all. That includes racing 2+ hour hare scrambles at 95 degrees.

I have used it about 50% of the time on the DH bike since then. I started the season with my Dainese Stuttle 3/4 suit that I have been using since 2002. It is nearly impossible to get the brace under the spine protector by yourself. Although, once you get it on it doesn't move much (slightly more than with the roost guard). With the jersey over armor style of DH, you need to modify the collar of the jersey to fit over the Leatt. Not a big deal, just do it before you are at the lift.

A few weeks ago, Mark from Rockgardn, shipped me the 2008 Flak Jacket. It is Leatt compatable. That means that there is enough space to fit the back of the brace between the spine protector and the main body of the suit. With the Dianese, you need to jam the neck brace inside of the main body of the suit. Therefore, the Rockgardn is much easier to put on and keeps the brace from moving.

The only other fitment concern is that with DH you need to look up realitive to your body a lot more than moto. Therefore, the rear of the Leatt needs to be adjusted down a bit for me to be able to see. For moto, I run it all the way up since I do not require that much range of motion. Even with some crazy steep MX and harescramble courses, it isn't a problem due to body position is different. The crank position verses peg position I think is the reason.

As stated, the cheapest model is $400. The more expensive models weigh less. Since I don't notice the weight of the $400 model, I made a good choice to go with it. So ask yourself if you would spend $400 after an injury. I am sure you would so at least consider it. If you see me out riding with it and want to try it or check it out, just say so and I'll let you ride with it.

 

[PUSHIND]

I have been wearing a Leatt Brace full time for Moto since March. I does not interfere at all on the dirt bike. As with Darrin, I was influenced by the David Bailey video. I was on the fence and that helped me decide to do the right thing.

Good stuff. I've had a couple of people email me about the link that's being talked about...here you go.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2540171359427789623

Darren

 

[sikocycles]

Wow scary vid. I will order my brace soon. May need new upper armor also.

 

[BigMike]

I always wear my armor when riding in the mountains. I have more armor than most of my friends, and I take longer to get ready than they do. But I don't care. Its totally with it to me. I have been Hirt enough in the past, and anything I can do to help myself, I'm going to do.

Two years ago, one of my good friends had a pretty nasty OTB incident. The mountain had dug two trenches at the bottom of a trail and didn't tell us. Birdwang saw the first and bunnyhopped it, but the second one was to close to react. He hit it at 25+ mph.

I brought his pads and helmet in to the hospital, and the doctor could not believe what happened. The doc said the Moro helmet saved him from ban damage (he had a concussion) and the body armor probaby save him from broken bones. (he seperated his shoulder and some other 'minor' stuff)

You just never know

 

[BigMike]

just to add another viewpoint to this discussion, this morning I was in a meeting, and before the meeting started someone got up to make an announcement.

A very powerful and conservative (as in not outgoing) business woman was at a cookout a while back. She somehow fell backwards out of her chair off am 18" deck, hit her head just right, and compressed her spine. She is now a quadrapalegic (sp?) just goes to show that no matter what you do or where you are, you are at a risk. Does dhing put you more at risk? Sure, bit it can happen to anyone

 

[dhchix]

I will be wearing a Leatt Brace next year. I recently fractured my C7 & T1 vertabre after crashing hard and landing on my head. I'm very fortunate that I had no spinal cord damage. I all ways wear my protective gear when I'm racing or just enjoying a day of DH'ing. I do feel safer when I wear my gear although I know it is not all ways going to keep me from getting hurt. It makes me sad to hear of a fellow rider getting hurt but we all know the risks involved with this sport. All we can do is pray for them.

 

[JRogers]

Spinal injuries scare me like nothing else, but I haven't found armor that I like enough to wear it. I'd like to try the Leatt brace, for the sake of the feeling of security if nothing else, but I don't want to shell out the cash for something that will bother me. I usually ride with knee pads, a helmet and gloves and that's it because armor tends to ruin the experience for me. Some guys get all defensive about wearing armor, as if it's some kind of moral choice. I don't think wearing armor or not is categorically separate- it's a spectrum of risk and a spectrum of (for me) fun. If I am being constantly annoyed by some big ass piece of plastic, I won't have fun and, at that point, why ride at all?

Maybe next year I'll give it a whirl again. Being a poor grad student doesn't help my ability to buy a grand worth of plastic either. Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

[davep]

My guess is that those not wearing any armor are either too young, or just lucky enough at this point in their lives to have any real experience with serious debilitating unjury.

I was there once too.

You will change your mind when you are forced to spend year(s) of your life off of your bike, unable to to be involved in ANY 'active' interests....brings a whole new perspective..



BTW, You WILL notice armor when you first put it on and are just sitting around in the parking lot.

Get out and actually ride in it and it will all go away. Even poor fitting pads are un-noticable when out having fun (how many of you have had small raw areas from new armor and did not notice until 'later'...)

I always feel wierd when I first put all my gear on at the car of the room.....a half run later...I do not notice anything at all.

 

[JRogers]

BTW, You WILL notice armor when you first put it on and are just sitting around in the parking lot.

Get out and actually ride in it and it will all go away. Even poor fitting pads are un-noticable when out having fun (how many of you have had small raw areas from new armor and did not notice until 'later'...)

I always feel wierd when I first put all my gear on at the car of the room.....a half run later...I do not notice anything at all.

I agree with the first part, but not with this. I've owned a few pieces of armor that I would keep on for the entire day and I could feel it and it would annoy me. The two upper suits I owned, Azonic and 661, were that way along with a few sets of elbow pads and such. I'd keep them on, they would bother me the whole time, I'd take them off and it would feel much better. Sure, some of the annoyance goes away while riding, but it might depend on the rider and the armor.