[cheetaprowlerDH]

well after all of my fork troubles, i have made up my mind that i want to buy an inverted fork for my bike... i have always liked the way they look and have heard nothing but good about them.
before i buy, my question is:
would an inverted fork work better than a basically stock '07 888sl? i put my forks through hell and back every day, and that semed to be the demise of my 888 so i hope something simple, proven, and kinda old-school:biggrin: will stand up to the beatings...
i'm not too worried about all this super-tech damping crap because i am learning still and want to learn control, positioing, and all that crap without the help of some insanely expensive high end cheater damping system... just something simple, strong and durable that will do its job of absorbing hits, work throughout its available travel like a fork is supposed to do and letting me control the rest so i am not simply plowing and let my fork do the work...
my only options seem to be either a Shiver or a White Brothers fork and i cant make up my mind which one... they both seem to be great forks, and the WB forks have 8" over the Shivers 7", which is appealing to me beause i dont want a fork swap to affect my head angle too much...

what do you guys think would be better in the long run? spending $$ on my 888 or spending $$ on a Shiver/WB?
i can always get the 888 rebuilt later, but for now i NEED a fork that will at least let me ride my bike...

 

[Cant Climb]

Buy a Shiver.
I wish they still made the Shiver.
Awesome fork.
Super durable.
Great tracking.
Easy to setup.
A bit porky though...

Ironically i am getting ready to buy an 888 SL......i was reading about your 888 troubles last night when researching the 888 SL....what happened after you couldn't get the damper rod out to do the PAR fix.....?

 

[cheetaprowlerDH]

Buy a Shiver.
I wish they still made the Shiver.
Awesome fork.
Super durable.
Great tracking.
Easy to setup.
A bit porky though...

Ironically i am getting ready to buy an 888 SL......i was reading about your 888 troubles last night when researching the 888 SL....what happened after you couldn't get the damper rod out to do the PAR fix.....?

i rode XC on a 53lb beast with a Monster T and an 18.5" BB:biggrin:
i can handle porky

with my 888....
well, all my oil drained out, the foot nut will not screw back in to close the leg, the PAR valve is a flattened mess and i am completely f-ing over it:biggrin:
it was a great fork, but i sincerely f-ed it up...
now i want something else

 

[builder666]

I LOVE MY SHIVER! It can be set up to run at 7" or 8" travel. the only drawback is the weight, but the ride is better than anyother fork I've ridden.

 

[Cant Climb]

with my 888....
well, all my oil drained out, the foot nut will not screw back in to close the leg, the PAR valve is a flattened mess and i am completely f-ing over it:biggrin:
it was a great fork, but i sincerely f-ed it up...
now i want something else

Shivers are around and for sale.....selling price around $325.

Sorry to hear about your 888.
My 2005 888 blew up this past weekend. I put so much compression damping in it (to get it to ride decent) the oil started to blow out the top of the cartridge....bought it after my Shiver blew up, Shiver worked flawless for 4 seasons though.....wish they still made them.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

blew my 888 just before the nats race run put on my back up fork, a fresh 2002 shiver. steeper head angle worked well. just wish I didn't loose my chain 100 yards in. The shiver is staying on for the rest of the season. the 888 will be fixed and used as a backup.

 

[Zark]

I had one. Heavy at over 8.5 lbs. Not super stiff, in slow tech situations you could feel deflection due to the inverted design. It was plush, but my '05 888 was vast improvment in weight & wheel tracking.

Fix your 888

 

[davep]

Honestly if you are looking for a 'workhorse' of a fork....you would be well served looking at older Marz forks. Nothing made today fits that catagory IMO.

The shiver is a great example of what Marz USED to do....solid, servicable, functional, durable products.....

The shiver or an 05 888 would be my suggestion as something that normally would need once or twice a year oil change...and seals at some point (maybe every two or three years) and really nothing more...THe shiver has some drawbacks...it is heavy...it has some twisting flex (as so all inverts) and you wont find parts for them any more (seals are still available...but that is it).

I am a little confused with your current 888....how does a foot nut(course threaded nut) 'not go back on'? That really has nothing to do with the fork durability or construction. Did you hack the threads? Strip the nut? The 888sl certainly needs some work to function as it should...but It is still quite simple and with some basic hand tools and some time, it should prove very solid.

My point is that NO FORK will last with total lack of maintainance and mechanical paux-pas on your behalf.....and unfortunately Marz offers ZERO tech information as to servicing their products...so you will get no help taking things apart. If you dont have a good feel for doing this kind of thing (or experience taking a bunch of forks apart), it is easy to f* things up without having a manual to walk you through it....

Reading your post on your 888 it is pretty obvious why it is not working....the workds 'pissed off' and 'hammer' dont go well with working on a fork. THis is going to sound rude, but if you can't get the footnut off of an 888.....you should not be working on your fork period. You need to realize that any fork needs regular work and with you being a 'kid' with little $$ that means that you NEED a friend to help you do this stuff. Find someone to 'help' and teach you how to work on your bike in the proper way. This is the ONLY way you will get ANY fork (or any other part) to work and last.

 

[builder666]

Marzocchi still has parts available for the Shiver. A few of the service guys still run em and swear they're the best fork made.

Also, they still have '04, the all black, models last I checked, about two months ago.

 

[cheetaprowlerDH]

I am a little confused with your current 888....how does a foot nut(course threaded nut) 'not go back on'? That really has nothing to do with the fork durability or construction. Did you hack the threads? Strip the nut? The 888sl certainly needs some work to function as it should...but It is still quite simple and with some basic hand tools and some time, it should prove very solid.

My point is that NO FORK will last with total lack of maintainance and mechanical paux-pas on your behalf.....and unfortunately Marz offers ZERO tech information as to servicing their products...so you will get no help taking things apart. If you dont have a good feel for doing this kind of thing (or experience taking a bunch of forks apart), it is easy to f* things up without having a manual to walk you through it....

it doesnt 'go back on' but the rod that it is connected to or whatever the f* its connected to will not catch threads and go back on... sat over, and under it for an hour straight trying all the different ways to get it back and the bottom ring sealed but it just wouldnt do it...
i never put enough pressure on it to strip anything but i was also never able to get anything but oil out of the leg...
i'm imagining i'm going to have to send it to MZ and have them replace the whole left legs internals... and i'm imagining it will cost the same as getting a used Shiver...
and then it wont work right... again...


does anyone know how much that 1" drop in fork travel(i dont know the axle to crown height) will affect HA from my 888? (is the 888 21" or 23" axle to crown? im nowhere near my busted azz bike right now, so i cant go ot and figure it out myself...)

 

[Lex]

it doesnt 'go back on' but the rod that it is connected to or whatever the f* its connected to will not catch threads and go back on... sat over, and under it for an hour straight trying all the different ways to get it back and the bottom ring sealed but it just wouldnt do it...
i never put enough pressure on it to strip anything but i was also never able to get anything but oil out of the leg...
i'm imagining i'm going to have to send it to MZ and have them replace the whole left legs internals... and i'm imagining it will cost the same as getting a used Shiver...
and then it wont work right... again...


does anyone know how much that 1" drop in fork travel(i dont know the axle to crown height) will affect HA from my 888? (is the 888 21" or 23" axle to crown? im nowhere near my busted azz bike right now, so i cant go ot and figure it out myself...)

Roughly speaking +/- 1 inch of axle to crown height = +/- 1 degree of head tube angle.


x

 

[cheetaprowlerDH]

Reading your post on your 888 it is pretty obvious why it is not working....the workds 'pissed off' and 'hammer' dont go well with working on a fork. THis is going to sound rude, but if you can't get the footnut off of an 888.....you should not be working on your fork period. You need to realize that any fork needs regular work and with you being a 'kid' with little $$ that means that you NEED a friend to help you do this stuff. Find someone to 'help' and teach you how to work on your bike in the proper way. This is the ONLY way you will get ANY fork (or any other part) to work and last.

it tightened back up even after i wrecked the PAR valve... and loosened easily when i decided to just drain the rest of the oil, but it wont tighten again now...

it didnt come off the first time i tried... following all the removal directions and checking them twice...
loosen til the rod spins, check. undo the top cap and then gently tap the PAR valve up into the rod, top cap check, valve? no movement...
reassemble, check. check, check. repeat, check. valve? nothing...
then the bike slipped and fork spilled its guts all over my van and i got pissed

have i done it before? no. did i understand the cause and effect of every unscrewing i did? totally. did the fork comply? to me? psshhhh, of course not....
i understand that these things need maintenance, just like the rest of my bike... i mean come on, i rode with Shimano parts for years! thats daily resetting, re-tightening, lubing and re-aligning:biggrin:
i know and understand what i do to my bike, but something that is broken internally is something i have no control over...



damn i wish i could find one of the black Shivers man! those things are seexxyyy!
but all of them are:biggrin:

 

[jonKranked]

I absolutely loved my shiver. but it was a pig. I wish there was a way to make some mods to it and make it lighter, but not lose the awesome performance.

 

[Jm_]

I absolutely loved my shiver. but it was a pig. I wish there was a way to make some mods to it and make it lighter, but not lose the awesome performance.

They were 8.2-8.5lbs or so, and you lost a litle weight with the integrated stem as opposed to a conventional fork with a conventional stem. IMO it's not all that heavy, considering most mainline forks weigh 7lbs or so, fox forty is about 6.8, so I don't see a "huge spread" of the weights. The dorado was 8lbs with it's integrated stem, so no lightweight there either. When you have a 200mmish fork with big stanchions/uppers/lowers, it's going to weigh a good bit, the shiver had an oil bath and big long coil springs. It wasn't all that heavy IMO.

On the other hand, all other things being equal, a conventional fork with a brake arch is going to be a lot stiffer in tortion. Just a fact of the design. You can overcompensate with the inverted design, but then you end up a lot heavier than in the first place. The real reason for inverted forks is to get ample bushing overlap for extreme amounts of travel. Back in 2001 or whenever it was released, 190mm was a pretty extreme amount of travel. Manufacturers have sinced upped the stanchion size to deal with the shortened bushing overlap, but that also increases surface area and requires good lubrication to work well.

 

[jonKranked]

On the other hand, all other things being equal, a conventional fork with a brake arch is going to be a lot stiffer in tortion. Just a fact of the design. You can overcompensate with the inverted design, but then you end up a lot heavier than in the first place.

Hence the Foes Wet One forks having a (I believe) 30mm front axle.

 

[Jm_]

Hence the Foes Wet One forks having a (I believe) 30mm front axle.

Yep, or maverick axle, etc...

 

[Kanye West]

I have two suggestions for you for the footnut:

1 - put the footnut on before you put in the topcap. Air up the cartrdige a little bit so you can apply some force on it downwards from the top (stanchion still collapsed here). Pushing down on it will keep it still for long enough to get the bugger threaded on a little bit. Once it's on a little bit, keep doing that until it's all the way down, or you can pull up and do the same thing. Remember the ATA cartridge will spin. Just requires the right touch to get that footnut back on. This has confused me before and countless others.

2 - Air impact wrench if you have access to one.


I take it you collapsed your PAR piston and damaged it? Just remove it and reassemble the fork at top out. The Shiver is no less complicated than this fork. It is VERY heavy and it tracks very very poorly. If you're after lower quality damping, you probably have that with the 888. The Shivers had amazing amounts of compression damping and amazing control over it with the sheer volume of oil they were displacing.

 

[builder666]

Just got off the phone with John at 'zocchi and he told me they don't have any built in stock, but have enough parts to build about 30.

Call him, 661-257-6630, if you are interested and I'm sure he'll give you a good deal.

D

damn i wish i could find one of the black Shivers man! those things are seexxyyy!
but all of them are:biggrin:

 

[Sandwich]

or the mr. dirt having a 17mm axle....!

Stiffness all comes from the design...unfortunately, the dirt weighed in at 9lbs as well.

I have an avy, and despite wanting something massively lighter, I'm sticking with it because the damping is worth it, and after hearing horror stories of foxes, RS, AND the new marzocchis blowing out/having issues, I'm sticking with the avy.

Mine could use fresh oil, but otherwise it's doing very well for it's second year with no maintenance. Can't comment on the shiver, but I recently rode with somebody who loves theirs, and his is a 2003.

The inverted vs. RSU fork debate is kind of moot. The benefits of an inverted fork are clear...but not at a mountain bike's weight. there's just too much compromise to make it stiff and strong and light at the same time...choose 2.

 

[John P.]

Can't believe you had such problems with the PAR removal - I'm a hack mechanic at best, and I swapped out the entire air cartridge and removed the PAR piston in under 25 minutes . . . on the driveway in front of our Whistler condo with no repair stand and less than optimal tools (used a leatherman vise grip to remove and re-install that foot nut that screwed you up so bad).

In any event, if you're going to ditch the SL, go for an 05-ish 888 coil and steer clear of the Shiver.

 

[William42]

I've been riding on my friends for the past 2 weeks (my bike got buggered by fedex, long story) through rock gardens, and the flex is pretty noticeable, it deflects a fair amount. Its 190mm, and feels like its less then my 180mm 66rc3. nostalgia is one thing, but my rc3 damper is simply way nicer then the shivers ssvf in terms of brake dive, in terms of smoothing out the trail both in big hits and small, high speed and low speed, maintaining traction and stability, etc. It is also stiffer. As far as reliability, I haven't had any trouble with my damper and my fork has been working pretty damn well. Yah, the shiver feels better then some forks, but theres definitely nicer....

I guess I just don't see the point of purposely handicapping yourself! get a marzocchi where you're not spending all your time tuning it, but dont limit yourself on principle

 

[davet]

The Shiver was awesome in it's time, but that time has passed. It was a definite workhorse, just change the oil 1 once a year if you wanted to, seals rarely went and other than that there wasn't much to it. You could tune bottom out with oil volume and the damping felt pretty sweet.

That being said when I went to an 05 888RC it was a night and day difference, and now with an 07 888WC it's even better. The only issue I had with either of the latter two forks was peeling stantion coating on the 07 which was replaced under warranty over night. Can't beat that.

It makes me wonder why I have a secret curiousity to try out a Boxxer.

 

[Jm_]

but my rc3 damper is simply way nicer then the shivers ssvf in terms of brake dive, in terms of smoothing out the trail both in big hits and small, high speed and low speed, maintaining traction and stability,

I'm sure the RC3 is better, but the shiver doesn't have ssvf, the shiver had "speed sensitive cartridges", but this was essentially the same as the HSCV damper, just a different name. When they started calling it "HSCV" it gained a few more oil ports, but was 98% the same thing.

Things got confusing when marzocchi came out with another damping system and started calling it "SSV/SSVF", which was NOT the same thing as the the HSCV and the speed sensitive cartridge.

 

[William42]

I'm sure the RC3 is better, but the shiver doesn't have ssvf, the shiver had "speed sensitive cartridges", but this was essentially the same as the HSCV damper, just a different name. When they started calling it "HSCV" it gained a few more oil ports, but was 98% the same thing.

Things got confusing when marzocchi came out with another damping system and started calling it "SSV/SSVF", which was NOT the same thing as the the HSCV and the speed sensitive cartridge.

care to explain? I'm looking at the fork right now, and it says "World Cup" then below that "high speed low speed adjustable SSV damping" then below that "190mm of travel"

 

[Zark]

The SSV valving was a basic ported valve ala olders boxxers/Jr-t.
Sucked for tuning and spiked on high speed impact.

HSCV was a oil bath shim stack, like RC, RC2x, RC3.

The Shivers never came with the cheap ported damper, always the high end stuff.

 

[Jm_]

The SSV valving was a basic ported valve ala olders boxxers/Jr-t.
Sucked for tuning and spiked on high speed impact.

HSCV was a oil bath shim stack, like RC, RC2x, RC3.

The Shivers never came with the cheap ported damper, always the high end stuff.

Yep, it's just that in 2002 they had the name change. They started calling the "SSV" cartridges "HSCV", and the low end crap got called "SSV". That was the year I got the horrid Jr T :biggrin:

Moreover, I have the compression piston from my 2001 shiver sitting here on my desk, after I hacksawed one of the carts in half to see what was in it (when I decided to put new carts in it for the heck of it a few years back)

 

[William42]

gotcha, thanks for the help - I've ridden ssv stuff before and it felt like poo, a source of major confusion in riding this fork and enjoying it. Its a great damper, it feels incredibly predictable and is never harsh and doesn't get bad brake dive, but it just doesn't feel as nice as alot of newer stuff.

anyway, good luck with whatever you get, hopefully it ends up working out well for you

 

[Jm_]

gotcha, thanks for the help - I've ridden ssv stuff before and it felt like poo, a source of major confusion in riding this fork and enjoying it. Its a great damper, it feels incredibly predictable and is never harsh and doesn't get bad brake dive, but it just doesn't feel as nice as alot of newer stuff.

anyway, good luck with whatever you get, hopefully it ends up working out well for you

Even though the HSCV/SSV cartridges had shimmed compression pistons, they were ultra-simple. I can provide a linky to pic I took of it if you want, but the thing is that RC2, RC3 and such are a lot more complex, the main improvement is better low speed control, less wallow, dive, etc. My shivers (not incorrect pluralism, but I owned two ) were ultra-plush, but lacking in the low speed control. I'd take an 888 RC3 or RC2 any day over it, but it was still far better than a lot of stuff, as a lot of forks from other companies were extremely lacking in the high speed damping department, and the more rough the terrain is, the bigger a problem that becomes.

You should check out the math problem I threw at derby on mtbr. I know it's futile, but it was fun.

 

[Cant Climb]

In any event, if you're going to ditch the SL, go for an 05-ish 888 coil and steer clear of the Shiver.

ya, get a 2005 888 and then you can have 4 inches of useless travel at the start of the stroke....LCS sleeve helps some but then it seems to cause spiking on repetative hard hits, so it solves one problem and introduces another.....

Shiver is a better fork by MILES.

Had the Shiver for 4 years and 2005 888 for the last 2......rebuilt and each one countless times and rode them both into the ground....

 

[blackspire]

ya, get a 2005 888 and then you can have 4 inches of useless travel at the start of the stroke....LCS sleeve helps some but then it seems to cause spiking on repetative hard hits, so it solves one problem and introduces another.....

Shiver is a better fork by MILES.

Had the Shiver for 4 years and 2005 888 for the last 2......rebuilt and each one countless times and rode them both into the ground....

What is a LCS Sleeve? Care to ellaborate on the 4 inches of useless travel on the 05 888?

 

[Cant Climb]

What is a LCS Sleeve? Care to ellaborate on the 4 inches of useless travel on the 05 888?

It's a sleeve they have to cover the outlet ports at the bottom of the compression cartridge. It restricts the amount of oil leaving the cartridge on compression.......giving more compression damping.

Useless travel.....the fork blows through the first 4-5 inches just by breathing on it.....again, more compression damping built-in would be nice....feels awesome in the parking lot though.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

What is a LCS Sleeve? ?

electrical tape

 

[Cant Climb]

electrical tape

lol...true......or zipties and a cut up soda can......

 

[davet]

Or slightly less ghetto

 

[RMboy]

Honestly if you are looking for a 'workhorse' of a fork....you would be well served looking at older Marz forks. Nothing made today fits that catagory IMO.

The shiver is a great example of what Marz USED to do....solid, servicable, functional, durable products.....

The shiver or an 05 888 would be my suggestion as something that normally would need once or twice a year oil change...and seals at some point (maybe every two or three years) and really nothing more...THe shiver has some drawbacks...it is heavy...it has some twisting flex (as so all inverts) and you wont find parts for them any more (seals are still available...but that is it).

I am a little confused with your current 888....how does a foot nut(course threaded nut) 'not go back on'? That really has nothing to do with the fork durability or construction. Did you hack the threads? Strip the nut? The 888sl certainly needs some work to function as it should...but It is still quite simple and with some basic hand tools and some time, it should prove very solid.

My point is that NO FORK will last with total lack of maintainance and mechanical paux-pas on your behalf.....and unfortunately Marz offers ZERO tech information as to servicing their products...so you will get no help taking things apart. If you dont have a good feel for doing this kind of thing (or experience taking a bunch of forks apart), it is easy to f* things up without having a manual to walk you through it....

Reading your post on your 888 it is pretty obvious why it is not working....the workds 'pissed off' and 'hammer' dont go well with working on a fork. THis is going to sound rude, but if you can't get the footnut off of an 888.....you should not be working on your fork period. You need to realize that any fork needs regular work and with you being a 'kid' with little $$ that means that you NEED a friend to help you do this stuff. Find someone to 'help' and teach you how to work on your bike in the proper way. This is the ONLY way you will get ANY fork (or any other part) to work and last.

Gotta Agree with you there.. The original Maz stuff is great! no need to fiddle befor a run or pump air in or insert money to get it to work.. They just work..

I liked having just preload and rebound on the top...UHMMM why did u ever change

 

[I_N_I]

Love my Shiver, it's the last year in silver before they went black, I think an 04'. Raised the oil height a few MM and all is good.

 

[cheetaprowlerDH]

now i rode with a 2003 Monster T2 for about a year and a half... the fork was obviously much stiffer/ less flexy than it seems the shiver is, but trying to downhill it was hell... it sounds like the shiver is a very capable yet simple race fork, and that is what i'm looking for...
downhilling my 888 was just great, i thought i would never want to change forks! it gave me new respect for any fork that has anything to do with 'air'... but then i would hit something hard and only go through 6" of travel... i know that the PAR fix will solve that problem, but sheesh...
imo, my 888 is beyond my repair... the tip of the PAR valve is flared outwards, so even if it did budge from within the footnut and rod, it wouldnt go very far... i'm not near it right now and wont be for a few days so i cant take pics of the fiasco down there, but i have no feesable idea on how to fix it... a shock pump wont thread on enough to reinflate the chamber, so i'm just SOL...

i've bounced around on an '03 shiver for about 30sec. and it felt like an amazing fork, but that was when i was riding my Monster...

anyone ridden a White Brothers fork?
just curious, i'd probably still get a shiver but i want some other input...

anyone know if Minaar had troubles with his Showa inverted fork when he was on Honda? doesnt seem to me like it was worse than the rest of those guys Boxxers, 40's and 888's... not saying that the shiver is the same in any way, because i have no idea, but its inverted and it performed... thats what i want...

 

[Zark]

other than being "cool looking" why do you want an inverted?
I've owned a Shiver and a Stratos S8. Both were plush, but really suffered in tracking.
Personally I wouldn't even consider one unless its paired to an oversized hub, like the Foes forks (but the SPV internals are crap!)

Get your 888 fixed by someone who knows whats up and you'll be stoked. Take it to Drake (I.S.O.) and he'll sort you out.

 

[cheetaprowlerDH]

^^why the f* didnt i think of taking it to Drake?!?!?
:huh:

i've heard he's been busy though... but sheez its worth a try!

and the reason i crave an inverted fork is because i want to know control in both worlds... i have learned single crown control, DC control, and ridiculously huge DC control, and now i want to learn what it takes to track and be fast on an inverted fork...
with me, its all about learning every different scenario... it teaches me how to react and what i need to do in rder to become a better rider in every aspect. if i can learn to make a fork that tracks horribly track well, i can take that control and apply it to a fork that tracks very well... that will cause less line-oriented mistakes and allow me to become a faster rider...

sh!t, i rode on a Vanilla RC that had literally NO oil in the body and NO air in the reservoir... sure i had no choice, but what i realized after the first day was that i can take my new knowledge on how to control a totally blown shock and apply it to a perfectly tuned one and this wil allow me to flow more easily and become faster... a year later, i am doing the same exact thing, just on a different bike...

its all in my plan baby, its all in my plan

and inverteds look sexy too

 

[Bicyclist]

I don't think intentionally handicapping yourself is a good way to learn technique. Get your 888 fixed, DON'T throw away such an expensive fork because you marred a few parts, and ride your bike as-is. Easiest, cheapest, fastest solution.