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Ska Todd/Iron Horse, help needed badly;

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
I am working through this issue for a customer, but we seem to be running around in circles, and we have been sent the same parts twice now.

Here's the issue;

Customer recently bought 2004 SGS Pro Freeride (it's been a couple months now but he's only gotten to ride it for about 2 weeks).

After about 2 weeks after purchase, the lower end of the shock started developing a little play. We called IH and they said that the 2-peice style shock axle that was in there was weaker than a new 1-piece part that they were using, and they recommended using that on this bike.

The 2-peice axle that fits in there is 84mm wide.

The linkage plates are 84mm wide when everything is bolted together.

The "replacement" one-piece axle that we have been sent twice now is only 60mm wide.

Because the width of the linkage plates from end to end is 84mm, there is no way a 60mm axle can work in it (without something different or additional). I have called IH and spoke to them for at least 45 minutes with no apparent solution. The IH tech said (about 20 times) to just bolt it all together and it just works fine. Well, I bolted the axle (that is 24mm too short and doesn't even contact the linkage plates) up, and there's about a half inch of slop in the shock mount now (obviously, because there is no axle running through it).

Here's the problem Todd or whomever, and I'd appreciate if this could be forwarded because we got nowhere on the telephone;

With the hardware we have, there's no way this can work. Look at the last picture with the places marked "empty space!" There's NOTHING here, there's the small bolt that anchors the linkgage together (much smaller diameter than the shock-axle hole) and the axle does not go far enough to even get into these holes that previously held the axle.

The pictures may do a better job of explaining what I am trying to in words, but we are at wits end trying to figure out how the IH tech guy says that it all "bolts together". It most definitely bolts together, but it has about a half inch of slop because there is NO AXLE or anything to take up the space to make a fit in the AXLE HOLES.

We need to know how to solve this, it is IH's recommendation that we use a one-peice axle, but it just can't work with what we have (and we've been told over and over again that we have everything and that it should just bolt up nice and tight)...
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Oh my god. I'm speechless.........

JM, that is the best, most descriptive and thorough post you have ever made. Ever.

I'm ...........uh.........I'm really proud of you.

Good luck.

Perhaps others can learn from your experience..........

And those diagrams illustrate your dillema very well.......

uh.... ummmmmm

that's all
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
kidwoo said:
Oh my god. I'm speechless.........

JM, that is the best, most descriptive and thorough post you have ever made. Ever.

I'm ...........uh.........I'm really proud of you.

Good luck.

Perhaps others can learn from your experience..........

And those diagrams illustrate your dillema very well.......

uh.... ummmmmm

that's all
If one person understands what I was trying to say, it makes me feel a WHOLE lot better, because I was trying to explain this over the phone for an extended period of time, using the same principles, and I was getting nowhere. I was truly about to pull my hair out. Thank you.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Jm_ said:
If one person understands what I was trying to say, it makes me feel a WHOLE lot better, because I was trying to explain this over the phone for an extended period of time, using the same principles, and I was getting nowhere. I was truly about to pull my hair out. Thank you.
Your case is clear. Email this link to whoever will give you an address from IH. If they don't get it after this, they should be fired.

Good luck :thumb:
 

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
I would be interested to know as well as my mates bike has started to develop slop there as well, and his 2004 SGS team is only 1 week old. Whats the story Iron Horse?
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Cave Dweller said:
I would be interested to know as well as my mates bike has started to develop slop there as well, and his 2004 SGS team is only 1 week old. Whats the story Iron Horse?
All SGS's do it, mine included. Every single one I've seen has had this problem.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Hey James,

I am sure Todd will reply, but I have a little insight for you on this.

The Manitou shock uses 12mm ID bushings, Teh 5th element shock uses 12.7 ID bushings. The holes in the links for the oversized shock bolt are 12.7mm because the bikes were originally used with all 5th element shocks.

What you need are two 12.7X 7mm or so long spacers that insert into the links themselves. The 8mm shock pivot shaft passes through the 60mm long 12mm shaft (which the shock bushing rides on) and then through the two 12.7mm bushings.

I drew it up real quick so you can see what I mean. 12.7 inserts for the links are orange. spacers for the shock are purple, and the 12mm pivot shaft is silver.

Hope this helps. I would call Iron Horse and ask for Todd directly.

Dave
 

Attachments

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Bulldog said:
[mini-rant] Long bolts suck balls and show compromise in design. [/mini-rant]
I agree, if it was one-piece oversized pivot shaft like the 5th Element SGS bikes, it would be a lot better though.

Actually, the layout I just drew below, and what I think Iron Horse tried to send James is pretty robust too, but in my mind, narrower is better.

Actually, to back that up, the Sundays use 23mm wide X8mm diameter hardened steel shock hardware, which is so narrow that its custom made from the shock makers. Those things arent going anywhere.

Dave
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
dw said:
Hey James,

I am sure Todd will reply, but I have a little insight for you on this.

The Manitou shock uses 12mm ID bushings, Teh 5th element shock uses 12.7 ID bushings. The holes in the links for the oversized shock bolt are 12.7mm because the bikes were originally used with all 5th element shocks.

What you need are two 12.7X 7mm or so long spacers that insert into the links themselves. The 8mm shock pivot shaft passes through the 60mm long 12mm shaft (which the shock bushing rides on) and then through the two 12.7mm bushings.

I drew it up real quick so you can see what I mean. 12.7 inserts for the links are orange. spacers for the shock are purple, and the 12mm pivot shaft is silver.

Hope this helps. I would call Iron Horse and ask for Todd directly.

Dave
That helps a lot, so I know what to ask for. I knew that there was some critical part left out, but I couldn't name it and I was told repeatedly that I had all the stuff to make it work (which I did not). It's going to help immensly to know the dimentions of the part to ask for, thanks again.

James
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Jm_ said:
That helps a lot, so I know what to ask for. I knew that there was some critical part left out, but I couldn't name it and I was told repeatedly that I had all the stuff to make it work (which I did not). It's going to help immensly to know the dimentions of the part to ask for, thanks again.

James
Cool, dont quote me on the widths though, I'm not exactly sure what the widths are. Im sure Todd knows whats up though.

Good luck man!

Dave
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
Jm, I have a quick fix for you on this. Real simple to do and straight forward. Gimme a call and I'll explain. Ext 206 at IH. If I am busy ring Travis (Dante) at ext 211.

-ska todd
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
ska todd said:
Jm, I have a quick fix for you on this. Real simple to do and straight forward. Gimme a call and I'll explain. Ext 206 at IH. If I am busy ring Travis (Dante) at ext 211.

-ska todd
Will do.
 

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
ska todd said:
Jm, I have a quick fix for you on this. Real simple to do and straight forward. Gimme a call and I'll explain. Ext 206 at IH. If I am busy ring Travis (Dante) at ext 211.

-ska todd
Can you post it up so every body can know? How about posting what parts you need with some diagrams. If almost every bike with swingers has that problem then you should at least let people know how to fix it. Im from Australia and i doubt the importer would have a clue what im talking about if i asked. Can you send these parts over to my mate?

Cheers

-Matt
 

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
dw said:
Hey James,

I am sure Todd will reply, but I have a little insight for you on this.

The Manitou shock uses 12mm ID bushings, Teh 5th element shock uses 12.7 ID bushings. The holes in the links for the oversized shock bolt are 12.7mm because the bikes were originally used with all 5th element shocks.

What you need are two 12.7X 7mm or so long spacers that insert into the links themselves. The 8mm shock pivot shaft passes through the 60mm long 12mm shaft (which the shock bushing rides on) and then through the two 12.7mm bushings.

I drew it up real quick so you can see what I mean. 12.7 inserts for the links are orange. spacers for the shock are purple, and the 12mm pivot shaft is silver.

Hope this helps. I would call Iron Horse and ask for Todd directly.

Dave
DW,

If thats the case then that ****ty little bolt will be taking the load instead of the bushing right? Is it recomended to upgrade it with a hard grade bolt? Looks like it would shear to me.

But im still puzzeled about why it rattles around in original form? Are the bushings not toleranced properly or something?

-Matt
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
The quick fix is just to take a 1/2" OD x 8mm ID thru pin from a Progressive/Fox/Romic shock and cut two 8~9mm wide pieces. Use those as reducers in the linkage and the 12mm OD x 8mm ID x 60mm width Answer pin between the links and thru the shock. Then, put the bolt thru and tighten it all up snug as a bug.

I wish Answer would use 1/2" eyelets like everyone else. It's flippin annoying.

-ska todd
 

SGSRydr

Chimp
Oct 7, 2004
25
0
Southern Maine
After three days of downhilling my '04 SGS Pro developed the play that everyone here is talking about. I called IH and they sent me the 60mm through pin and said bolt it up. After realizing this just wouldn't work I fabricated my own spacers using the original hardware. I cut the last 10mm or so off the originals and pressed them into the linkage plates. Now everything bolts up nice an tight and no slop. A simple hacksaw and a mitre box was all it took to cut the original pins.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
Wigga said:
so what the way i could get this fixed with no work for me?
None really, but it's probably worth noting (again) that all of this is caused by the fact that manitou's DU bushing/eyelet size is not standard with the rest of the shock makers.

If you were running a progressive or fox rear shock this wouldn't be an issue as you could run a solid steel axle all the way through the linkage plates.

That might help others understand why things are this way.
 

Rik

Turbo Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
1,085
1
Sydney, Australia
Avalanche's eyelet is smaller too, don't know if it's the same as manitou, but it makes life difficult when it comes to fitting on setups like this.
 

Wigga

Monkey
Jul 27, 2004
146
0
kirkland
JJ_PA said:
I just got an 04 SGS team DH, can I expect this to happen to me as well?
It has the manitou 6way on it.
thanks
yup, i got a manitou 4way(i think...wow im stupid) and it happened to me
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Jm_ said:
None really, but it's probably worth noting (again) that all of this is caused by the fact that manitou's DU bushing/eyelet size is not standard with the rest of the shock makers.

If you were running a progressive or fox rear shock this wouldn't be an issue as you could run a solid steel axle all the way through the linkage plates.

That might help others understand why things are this way.
I've had my shock modded to run with a Fox bushing and a solid steel axle as you mentioned, but it's still just barely loose. Very, very annoying.
 

Lumpy_Gravy

Monkey
Sep 16, 2003
194
0
BETD in the UK make a kit for the SGS. It uses a steel shock pin, and replaces the DU with a nylon piece which is much stronger than the original kit, and just the nylon piece can be replaced when it wears.

I'll try post some pics when I get it.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Lumpy_Gravy said:
BETD in the UK make a kit for the SGS. It uses a steel shock pin, and replaces the DU with a nylon piece which is much stronger than the original kit, and just the nylon piece can be replaced when it wears.

I'll try post some pics when I get it.
A DU bushing will last about 40X longer than Nylon 6-6 or 6-12 bushing under the loading conditions that the shock eyelet sees.

Just an FYI.

Dave
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
BTW, thanks for the Boxxer manual Todd. I know what to do with that. :evil:
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
dante said:
did you like the RS and Crank Bros stickers as well?? :blah:
They're not really for me anyway, I'm passing it all along to Mark..well except for the boxxer manual.

I love my eggbeaters and my C-17 multitool though!

Props for the casual joke, it never hurts.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
dante said:
did you like the RS and Crank Bros stickers as well?? :blah:
Another reason to give them to my friend Mark is that I already have some of my own :D
 
Aug 11, 2003
34
0
ska todd said:
The quick fix is just to take a 1/2" OD x 8mm ID thru pin from a Progressive/Fox/Romic shock and cut two 8~9mm wide pieces. Use those as reducers in the linkage and the 12mm OD x 8mm ID x 60mm width Answer pin between the links and thru the shock. Then, put the bolt thru and tighten it all up snug as a bug.

I wish Answer would use 1/2" eyelets like everyone else. It's flippin annoying.

-ska todd
Todd,

Could you post a part number for this hardware so that I can attempt this modification? Thanks.

Simon
 

JJ_PA

Chimp
Nov 7, 2004
45
0
S.W. Pennsylvania
The quick fix is just to take a 1/2" OD x 8mm ID thru pin from a Progressive/Fox/Romic shock and cut two 8~9mm wide pieces. Use those as reducers in the linkage and the 12mm OD x 8mm ID x 60mm width Answer pin between the links and thru the shock. Then, put the bolt thru and tighten it all up snug as a bug

anyone know where I can get this part?
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,010
9,671
AK
JJ_PA said:
The quick fix is just to take a 1/2" OD x 8mm ID thru pin from a Progressive/Fox/Romic shock and cut two 8~9mm wide pieces. Use those as reducers in the linkage and the 12mm OD x 8mm ID x 60mm width Answer pin between the links and thru the shock. Then, put the bolt thru and tighten it all up snug as a bug

anyone know where I can get this part?
Unless you have some fox/progressive eyelet reducers lying around, you're going to have to get them from Iron Horse. They are responsibile for fixing this flaw.

We have the setup up and running now, and it seems to work pretty well, all nice and tight. The real fix is to ge a different shock, as now the top bushings are starting to wear out on the manitou shock, although we now have extra bushings and can fix this. So all is ok for now...except for 1 thing. We figured out the problem with the headset in this 2004 IH SGS Pro. Iron Horse forgot to put the wedge back in the headset when they shipped it back to us!

The fix works, if you have some shock eyelet adaptors lying around chances are you can make it work, but if not you're going to have to get them from iron horse. I can't say this ordeal has been fun, it's been one thing after another unfortunatly. Nothing that seems to indicate that it's all inter-related, but hopefully there'll be no issues for a while now.
 
Aug 11, 2003
34
0
I found a couple of old Fox reducers that will probably fit the bill. I'll screw around this weekend and see what I can do.

Simon