I think so......
And now it's even lighter without that 10 gram piston in there.
I may even put an extra rotor bolt on my bike.
sl-ata
- Thread starter vitox
- Start date
And now it's even lighter without that 10 gram piston in there.
I may even put an extra rotor bolt on my bike.
im sorry to ruin your day and all, but that piston doesnt weigh 10 grams.
besides with all the oil you added, you ended up with a heavier fork
time to run 2 rotor bolts per wheel my amigo.
I wouldn't have any objections to that as long as that wasn't the part of the fork I needed to have warrantied. The guys at Marz have been pretty fair to me in the past so I wouldn't expect them to fix a messed up air chamber that I had tampered with but I also wouldn't want to have them using that as an excuse to get out of a broken rebound cartridge or something else completely unrelated.Hacktastic, that pop sound has been coming from my fork for 8 months now, and has not gone away. Marz. told me the same thing way back when, but it hasn't come to fruition. Also, lack of full travel has nothing to do with the compression setting, or the oil level. You are getting the standard marzocchi tech spiel,. Those guys do NOT understand the SL ATA forks IMO. And of course they don't recommend you modify their forks! That would be heresy.
PAR stands for progressive air resistance. A positive chamber does the same function. The reason the PAR piston is tethered is so it provides a fixed volume and position in the cartridge, so the pressure can be varied with rider weight. You can change the position of this piston. I visited a hardware store and bought some very thin and strong nylon cord, removed my PAR piston, replaced the stock tether with one half as long, to create a PAR chamber half the size of the stock one. I like it.
If you shortened your tether, Marz. would probably claim you voided your warrenty anyway. Any excuse to get out of doing free work. Thing is, you can remove the piston, change your tether length, without doing any irreversable changes to the fork. You can put the PAR piston and the stock tether back in before sending your fork to marz.
Is that deception? That's your call. I have no moral dilema with it; the way I see it, they produced two models of forks that don't do what they are supposed to do, and they bury their heads in the sand about it.
Edit: For a little insight as to what 66 SL ATA owners have had to deal with, check out this thread at mtbr. Skip the first ten pages:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=241645
I mentioned to Kidwoo in a PM that just about ALL Marzocchi products are not really intended to be used "as designed", even if it's down to messing with the stock oil weights and levels and such. All the tech guys will give you the real settings and setup instructions - I think they are made with "safe" settings in mind for the biggest fattest hucker out there who pays no attention to setting up his equipment and stomps everything.
I'm just curious though, how is that tether secured at both ends?
the tether has loops at each end that are captured in the PAR piston by pins that are held in place by circlips. It's described a little better in a lengthy post I wrote here, step 11: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=3195344&postcount=350
Check it out. Maybe try making your own tether, it's not hard.
Guess again beyotch!!
I actually ended up taking out all the oil on the cartridge side. Even with no air in it, I couldn't get the stanchion to bottom out....meaning there's no way it would come close when pressurized. There's a tad in there for lube purposes but nowhere near the 30ml I first put in.
Thanks for weighing that piston though
So I guess some of your bud's have done the same thing?
I've got two good days at northstar in on this fork after removing the PAR piston.
It rocks. It's nice and progressive and has a smooth stroke throughout the entire range of travel. This is set at 170mm so I can't speak to how the 200 setting will work.
I intentionally rode off some pretty brutal drops to flat and didn't bottom it. Based on dust marks, I'm getting all but the last 2-3mm of travel. So in my mind it's got the proper ramp up without cutting off too much travel.
I'm about 165 and settled on about 100-105 psi in the resulting one big chamber.
I stand behind this modification
It rocks. It's nice and progressive and has a smooth stroke throughout the entire range of travel. This is set at 170mm so I can't speak to how the 200 setting will work.
I intentionally rode off some pretty brutal drops to flat and didn't bottom it. Based on dust marks, I'm getting all but the last 2-3mm of travel. So in my mind it's got the proper ramp up without cutting off too much travel.
I'm about 165 and settled on about 100-105 psi in the resulting one big chamber.
I stand behind this modification
Cool. So now I can say I have experience modifying 888SL's?I stand behind this modification
Good job Kidwoo.
Folks, I think I have solved the ATA auto wind-down situation as well, one that addresses the root of the problem, as apposed to the methods Marzocchi has come up with, which blindly dance around the problem.
From what I can tell, the piston/cartridge setup is identical to everything you posted. Thanks for pioneering.Cool. So now I can say I have experience modifying 888SL's?
Good job Kidwoo.
Folks, I think I have solved the ATA auto wind-down situation as well, one that addresses the root of the problem, as apposed to the methods Marzocchi has come up with, which blindly dance around the problem.
So what's your wind down solution? Spoke prep on threads at the top of the shaft?
Based on the duct tape I see on everyone else's fork holding the dial in place, you may be right.I don't know Kidwoo; this one could be a goldmine. I may end up offering this service for a fee!
Come on
spill the beans
Spill the beans? Bwhahahahaha! 
Not yet.
I can tell you this; it's not a band-aid fix. It's not duct tape, the Ronnie clip, a velcro tie-wrap. It's not what marzocchi is doing either; they don't see it. Their technicians are too busy giving out R.A. numbers, initially diagnosing a problem, from which they look in their tech manuals and follow the protocol dictated there. They replace parts, till it works again [allthough they don't put your fork on a bike and ride it, so how do they know it really works?] They do not diagnose, experiment, or think for themselves. Nothing againts the individual technician; it's the system they operate in that's sick.
Not yet.
I can tell you this; it's not a band-aid fix. It's not duct tape, the Ronnie clip, a velcro tie-wrap. It's not what marzocchi is doing either; they don't see it. Their technicians are too busy giving out R.A. numbers, initially diagnosing a problem, from which they look in their tech manuals and follow the protocol dictated there. They replace parts, till it works again [allthough they don't put your fork on a bike and ride it, so how do they know it really works?] They do not diagnose, experiment, or think for themselves. Nothing againts the individual technician; it's the system they operate in that's sick.
From Homerville........
So you'll tell a bunch of dwids wearing spandex and knee pads how to fix a problem but withold the info from those beating the piss out of dh courses on a regular basis who are much more likely to be suffering from the issue at hand.......
I see how it is....
I see how it is....
I figure to gouge all types; it's okay to tell homers because they may be to self absorbed to want to dive into their fork innards. I'll charge them the most!
Actually, no, it's no big deal, I couldn't help myself, making Kidwoo squirm was fun. Didn't I allready go a little out of my way to help you?
I'm planning on doing this to a few more 66SL ATA forks, and establishing a statistical success story, before I start getting more cocky about it [than I allready am]. That is really why I'm not "spilling the beans".
edit: Kidwoo, if you're really interested, I can let you know where to get the exact part you need for this.
Actually, no, it's no big deal, I couldn't help myself, making Kidwoo squirm was fun. Didn't I allready go a little out of my way to help you?
I'm planning on doing this to a few more 66SL ATA forks, and establishing a statistical success story, before I start getting more cocky about it [than I allready am]. That is really why I'm not "spilling the beans".
edit: Kidwoo, if you're really interested, I can let you know where to get the exact part you need for this.
I definitely appreciate your help.
Probably would have taken me a few more weeks to figure it out by myself......if ever.
I wasn't squirming that much though. Running mine at 170, I don't have the problem
Probably would have taken me a few more weeks to figure it out by myself......if ever.
I wasn't squirming that much though. Running mine at 170, I don't have the problem
"Stunt cock!!!"
I have lawyers?Gee, thanks Isoulrider; there goes my MILLIONS of dollars.
That post was last week, I've tested it since then. It works quite nicely, thank you.
My lawyers will be speaking to your lawyers soon....
I had a quick talk with Ronnie at Marzocchi today about the fork. I guess you have to burp the other side of the fork regularly, or more regularly than the old RC2X forks (I had to burp my old one once every couple of months) but when we burped this one it released a LOT of air - like 20psi worth, but really felt like more. That made it feel a whole lot better for sure. I'm not certain why this one built up the air pressure so fast since I haven't used it at elevation yet and it only has a few hours ride time on it, but maybe it has something to do with the slightly higher oil levels in that leg from previous years and the lack of a spring - who knows.
I now have a completely different problem though. Fully extended with the ATA backed out I'm only at exactly 7" of travel from the dust wiper to the MIN marker. I can pull the fork up another 1/2" maybe but it sure as hell isn't easy and it isn't like the fork is just sagging into it's travel because it's set up so soft. If I wind the fork down I am at 5" exactly. I'm thinking (and hoping) I just filled up the air cartridges in the wrong order and got some sort of negative air going on - does anyone know how to correct this? Should I try burping the air cartridge leg as well or perhaps the air cart itself? I may end up removing that fvcking PAR piston after all if it keeps presenting problems although I do like the bottom out resistance feature...but have no use for a 5"-7" 888.
Edit: In my 10 minutes of screwing around with the fork more, I managed to get 1/2" of extention back by:
1. Letting all the air out of the top
2. Letting all the air out of the bottom.
3. Filling the top to 150psi
4. Filling the bottom to 200psi
5. Lettng the top then bottom out to appropriate pressures (about 70top/100bottom).
Still not getting a full 8" of extention though.....grr
I now have a completely different problem though. Fully extended with the ATA backed out I'm only at exactly 7" of travel from the dust wiper to the MIN marker. I can pull the fork up another 1/2" maybe but it sure as hell isn't easy and it isn't like the fork is just sagging into it's travel because it's set up so soft. If I wind the fork down I am at 5" exactly. I'm thinking (and hoping) I just filled up the air cartridges in the wrong order and got some sort of negative air going on - does anyone know how to correct this? Should I try burping the air cartridge leg as well or perhaps the air cart itself? I may end up removing that fvcking PAR piston after all if it keeps presenting problems although I do like the bottom out resistance feature...but have no use for a 5"-7" 888.
Edit: In my 10 minutes of screwing around with the fork more, I managed to get 1/2" of extention back by:
1. Letting all the air out of the top
2. Letting all the air out of the bottom.
3. Filling the top to 150psi
4. Filling the bottom to 200psi
5. Lettng the top then bottom out to appropriate pressures (about 70top/100bottom).
Still not getting a full 8" of extention though.....grr
Just this
http://marzocchi.com/template/detailSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=208&LN=UK&Sito=usa-mtb&IDAnno=30710&mCO=Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu#GHVF/#VhulhRuglqh/#QrphIrufhood&mCW=DQG#&Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu&#A@#*5334*#DQG#&DP&#@#4#DQG#&Prgho\hdu&#@#63:43&mCJ=&IDOggetto=30986
Hacktastic: Sounds like the same problem I had when I reassembled mine. My problem was from having the air cart compressed when I put it back together creating a big negative chamber that pressurized when I put air into the main chamber and extended it. Might be necessary to assemble it with the rod extended when you decomission the PAR chamber. But then again if you're going to go in there at all, you might as well take the PAR piston out.
Carefull when you do that; when you reassemble the cartridge, and tighten that top cap, you want to have some negative volume in the cartridge. If you recall the link to my mtbr post, I had a section about resetting the negative volume. It is this volume that gives the fork it's suppleness. Some is good, too little or too much is not good. If you get it just right, you should have just about the full travel showing on your stanchion. Something has to be way off to lose 1 inch.
Renegade - I see you set yours to 2" (did you set yours up the same Woo?). What affect would it have putting it less or more than 2"? More or less supple off the top? I think I may just end up toying with that and ultimately just toning down the size of the PAR chamber. With my weight way over the back end of the bike I rarely find myself needing heavy bottom out resistance unless I stomp a drop with my weight over the front doing drunken Bender imitations, but having a little there is nice for those sort of moments.
I reassembled mine with no space whatsoever....completely topped out.
I did this on the third reassembly because any volume in there at all wouldn't let the fork extend all the way.
It must have gotten something in there because it doesn't top out and doesn't stick off the top of the stroke at all.
I did this on the third reassembly because any volume in there at all wouldn't let the fork extend all the way.
It must have gotten something in there because it doesn't top out and doesn't stick off the top of the stroke at all.
So your piston was basically right up against the top-out bumper below the top cap then, correct?
Your last line wasn't really clear - could you clarify?
Your last line wasn't really clear - could you clarify?
By 'something' I just meant air. Because theoretically, if there were no air in there, it would create a vacuum on compression and top out really hard. Mine doesn't. So there must be enough air in there just from the space created by the topout bumper.
But yeah....I assembled with the rod completely topped out in the chamber.
guys theres one thing that might be throwing you off with regards to the neg chamber
see, SOME forks have a small circular port close to the cart body threads, this makes for self equalization of pressures once the cartridge is aired up, most i have seen do not have this, kidwoos seems to not have it at least from what he is writing, so if you have a small recessed port in there then its best to pump up the fork with the shaft topped out, if not, do as renegade says and leave some air in the negative chamber or youll have preload when you air it up.
see, SOME forks have a small circular port close to the cart body threads, this makes for self equalization of pressures once the cartridge is aired up, most i have seen do not have this, kidwoos seems to not have it at least from what he is writing, so if you have a small recessed port in there then its best to pump up the fork with the shaft topped out, if not, do as renegade says and leave some air in the negative chamber or youll have preload when you air it up.
Awesome - Woo/Renegade, thanks again for the help. You guys kick @ss! We'll see what I can mess up now...
Yeah that's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I never knew how they accomplished it, but I did know some air forks/shocks did it somehow.
And you're right......there is a small recessed area on the shaft
Yeah that's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I never knew how they accomplished it, but I did know some air forks/shocks did it somehow.
And you're right......there is a small recessed area on the shaft
wait, shaft or ata cart body? (the part thats missing from the picture i photoshopped labels on thats on the first pages of this thread) anyhow if it has this circular depression, then you can just stretch the cart and at a certain point it will self equalize so initial neg volume dont matter.
You know there's a top rod that slides over the bottom rod (the one the PAR piston is mounted on)?
It's on one of those rods.......actually I can't remember which right now.
But it's also not important. My fork works, feels like it's got something in the negative chamber.......and I'm the only one on the hill that's not bitching about their 888 sl ATA
It's on one of those rods.......actually I can't remember which right now.
But it's also not important. My fork works, feels like it's got something in the negative chamber.......and I'm the only one on the hill that's not bitching about their 888 sl ATA
Hacktastic, I found two inches to work well with my 66. The negative chamber helps initiate the stroke, and adds to small bump sensitivity.Too little negative chamber, and you lose those attributes, too much, and you lose some of your mid stroke support. It's something you can vary, and play with.
ok, well thats not the pos/neg transfer port, what you are seeing is the transfer port from the inside of the top shaft to the main (SFA) positive chamber.You know there's a top rod that slides over the bottom rod (the one the PAR piston is mounted on)?
It's on one of those rods.......actually I can't remember which right now.
But it's also not important. My fork works, feels like it's got something in the negative chamber.......and I'm the only one on the hill that's not bitching about their 888 sl ATA
seems you have one of the carts w/o a pos/neg transfer port (for the lack of a better name because it doesnt physically look like a port at all).
also woo, remember you can alter progression characteristics by toying with the other (damper) side also, the SL has a volume spacer held in place with clips just where the coil 888 has one.
Vitox, I know glker [from the mtbr thread] disbelieves in setting up the negative volume, but I have proved to myself that it works, and proved to myself that the transport groove inside the main cartridge that supposedly equalizes pressures really doesn't. Just this weekend, I removed the cartridge from my fork, and removed the bottom [PAR] end of the cartridge, exposing the positive piston. By hand, I extended the cartidge, waitin for this transfer of air out of the negative chamber, to escape in the now open space that I created. Nothing happened. The positive piston traveled over this groove, but no air escaped through that groove.
I did notice that when I changed the oil on that side. I know with the coil versions I had in the past, this would only last one or two hard hits. Then the oil would just get pressed past that cap.
It feels fine as is. Like I said, I got two good long days of lift serviced riding on it and never hit bottom, and it feels great as far as sag point and quality of the stroke.
Worth noting is that when I changed the oil in the rebound side, the oil was almost perfectly clean. It still smelled like eggs, like all used oil in a zoke but it's the first time I've EVER seen clean oil come out of a marzocchi. Wonder if it's been the springs in the coil forks slowly rubbing off on the inside of the stanchions all these years........
