[- seb]

Everyone always says "brake in a straight line, before the corner". Is this a simplification?

I know the same is said to beginner drivers at (for example) a kart race - but I for one definately drive smoother and better if I trail brake into the corner a bit. Does the same apply to bikes, or should we really be totally 100% off of the brakes as we start to turn?

My thoughts have always been that you want to use 100% of your tyres' traction as much as you can. At the apex of a corner you should be using all of that for cornering, fair enough. At the start of a corner when you're gradually easing into the turn you're only using (say) 50% of the tyre's cornering ability, so should you not still be braking a bit, to use the rest of the tyre's ability?

As such I reckon you should do maximum braking in a straight line, and as you start to turn in modulate the braking off, until at the apex of the corner where you're using no brakes. After the apex you should start to accelerate, but be aware that you may not be able to put maximum power down until you're fully straightened up.


BUT... is that completely wrong? Maybe because a bike is being leant into the corners it changes the physics of it all, and we really should be off the brakes 100%? I've certainly noticed sometimes that braking can have the effect of "standing up" the bike.


note: for the sake of simplification I'm ignoring all other aspects such as surface texture, camber, etc. On the subject of camber though, how does all of the above apply to bermed cornering, as opposed to flat cornering?

Let the debate begin....
of car/kart racing

 

[kidwoo]

Ideally, yes.........no brakes. The idea of knowing and achieving the exact maximum speed you can carry into a turn for a given corner and a rider's skills is wonderful in theory and can be achieved. Doing it all the time for every turn is near impossible for most peeps.

Anyone who tells you they NEVER brake in corners is lying though.

 

[SK6]

This is true. I'll tend to brake more on the rear in sharper corners to "fade" the rear around. It's actually a tap more than an application of the brakes full on...

It may be wrong, but that's what I do, for what its worth.

 

[Westy]

This is true. I'll tend to brake more on the rear in sharper corners to "fade" the rear around. It's actually a tap more than an application of the brakes full on...

It may be wrong, but that's what I do, for what its worth.

I hold the rear brake just to the point of engagement when cornering, that way in a panic instead of washing out the front end I can lock up and slide out the rear. Again I don't want to lock up the rear but will if it stops my face from meeting the ground at high speed I will.

 

[spacemanspiff06]

when you brake in a corner, the giroscopic forces that your wheel exerts make the bike 'want' to stand up straight. you have to fight this force unless you lay off the brakes. this realy only comes to play when your going, say, over 25 mph. under that, do what you want, just don't make a bad habit that will bite you later on while going faster.
sometimes i find it a good thing. when i'm going to fast into a corner i'll start out wide and just past the apex i'll over lean and grab brake. this shifts my weight forward, incressing the grip that the front tire has and letting me square off the turn and also stands me back up right. it's rare that i get this to work right, and often the tire, or the trail, slides out on me, putting me on my ass, safe and sound. but when it has worked it is a sweet rush.

 

[biggins]

brakes? what are these brakes you speak of?

 

[kidwoo]

brakes? what are these brakes you speak of?

I wouldn't worry about it.

They are these things that those of us who go fast use. Only necessary when you've actually gotten up to a speed of over 5mph or so.

 

[PatBranch]

^Only necessary when you have bike.

 

[SK6]

^Only necessary when you have bike.

^And actually get ON it.

 

[spacemanspiff06]

oh, SNAP, yall! tripple burn! tisssss, tisssss, tissssss!

 

[zedro]

My thoughts have always been that you want to use 100% of your tyres' traction as much as you can. At the apex of a corner you should be using all of that for cornering, fair enough. At the start of a corner when you're gradually easing into the turn you're only using (say) 50% of the tyre's cornering ability, so should you not still be braking a bit, to use the rest of the tyre's ability?

ideally i think thats exactly it. Theres a tool called a "traction circle" (its a graph, actually an elipse) that basically gives you the ratio of maximum longitudinal traction (braking, accel.) vs. lateral traction (cornering) and the given accelerations of each. Of course theres the other dynamic effects hinted out above, but of course theres braking into and accelerating out of the corner, which implies you're still cornering.

 

[kidwoo]

ideally i think thats exactly it. Theres a tool called a "traction circle" (its a graph, actually an elipse) that basically gives you the ratio of maximum longitudinal traction (braking, accel.) vs. lateral traction (cornering) and the given accelerations of each. Of course theres the other dynamic effects hinted out above, but of course theres braking into and accelerating out of the corner, which implies you're still cornering.

Hey if I put a helmet cam on at northstar with a direct link to your computer, can I get a headset where you can yell at me to use more or less brakeness?

 

[spacemanspiff06]

Hey if I put a helmet cam on at northstar with a direct link to your computer, can I get a headset where you can yell at me to use more or less brakeness?

yeah, just watch out for the whole time delay thing.

 

[skatetokil]

:: pedalpedalpedalpedal BRAKEBRAKEBRAKE pedalpedal BRAKE::

 

[zedro]

Hey if I put a helmet cam on at northstar with a direct link to your computer, can I get a headset where you can yell at me to use more or less brakeness?

no, but can I just yell at you anyways?

 

[Repack]

In driving school (high performance track) they call what you described "Trailing Braking", or something like that. I feather my back brake to steer and bleed speed. Front brake is a no-no.

 

[kidwoo]

no, but can I just yell at you anyways?

Yeah that would be kind of cool actually.

"you call THAT a table top b1tch!!!????"

Edit: nah too mundane

More like: "here you are again.....ignoring your girlfriend on weekends to go do the same thing you do every day.........you're a horrible person........you don't deserve happiness"

 

[santacruzer87]

braking in corners is for queefs, brake early, and set up properly. Sometimes slower is faster. Don't be afraid to go slow and hit it right and carry your speed.

-Ryan

 

[zedro]

braking in corners is for queefs, brake early, and set up properly.

typically in any racing, the guy that can brake the latest wins. It means he can carry a higher average speed during the run since he isnt wasting time la-la-la-ing into the corners trying to set up oh-just-of-so right.

 

[zedro]

More like: "here you are again.....ignoring your girlfriend on weekends to go do the same thing you do every day.........you're a horrible person........you don't deserve happiness"

actually I'd probably only yell at you if you were spending too much time with the girlfriend...especially if she was riding along side you ("...stop making the little girls look so good....did the trees shear off your handlebar tassles?!..."")

 

[SK6]

yeah, just watch out for the whole time delay thing.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

 

[bjanga]

In my (imperfect?) technique, I try and brake late, and brake until I feel comfortable that I can round the turn. Then I let go.

For 'normal' shaped turns, that means I usually let go somewhere around (usually just before) the apex.

EDIT: to clarify, I guess I let go so I can lean into the apex better. And, if you have to brake after you have let go and leaned into the turn, it can be a tricky affair because of the changes of friction/traction. So, aside from speed considerations, that is another reason not to start braking in the middle/end of a turn if you are leaning.

EDIT2: noname brings up a good point about braking a little to weight a wheel that is washing

 

[noname]

typically in any racing, the guy that can brake the latest wins. It means he can carry a higher average speed during the run since he isnt wasting time la-la-la-ing into the corners trying to set up oh-just-of-so right.

Zedro definately knows what he's talking about. Also, going in hot and knowing how to trail brake can do wonders for your ability to maintain traction. Sometimes when the front tire is washing out a tad bit of brake can add weight and just enough traction to the front to pull you through. Before I get off on a tangent of riding physics, do yourself a favor and go to a bookstore and pick up Keith Codes "A Twist of the Wrist". It's about motorcycle road racing(my other passion) but gives the best expanation going on the physics on handling on any two wheeled machine. Has helped me in my motorcycling and my mountainbiking.

 

[julian_dh]

i try and brake only when the bike is upright and let off the brake at the point where i would normally lean or pump into a turn.

the only time i use brake in a turn is if theres an obstacle that i need to slow down to clear or to not wash out but this is usually in more technical of camber ect.

EDIT: noname i know exactally what you mean with the trailbrake thats what i was trying to explain above^^

 

[gemini2k]

typically in any racing, the guy that can brake the latest wins. It means he can carry a higher average speed during the run since he isnt wasting time la-la-la-ing into the corners trying to set up oh-just-of-so right.

its actually more about exit speeds, if you come into a corner too fast and then brake in the turn, you have have a higher avg speed but if youre coming out of the corner slower thatn ure f*ed, watch some f-1 racing, they're pros

 

[stiksandstones]

We did a shuttle run of San Juan trail yesterday, the dirt was epic after the rains. I have done this trail a lot over the years, but not often recently-but I know all the turns etc.
Its about 40 minutes down with an a$$load of turns, loose ones, switchback ones, etc, the whole gammut.

I have followed my buddy down this trail a 100 times, he is the fastest guy I know and knows the trail better than I do. My goal is to always stay with him as long as I can, watch him and learn. That goal is never attained.

I try to emulate his cornering technique every time, I do ok for a few turns then get a little gapped, chase, mess up, chase harder, almost die. Anyways, he is never skidding through the turns and as long as I have ridden MTB's I know this to be the general rule, 'slow in fast out' etc and I make errors the whole way down, knowing what I SHOULD do, but always grab gobs of brakes IN the turns....all the while talking to myself "stupid stupid stupid"...I remember a few turns towards the bottom as I was chasing him down squeezing my brakes IN the turn in a pulsating style and I want to stop, get off and punch myself in the face.

Frustrating as hell, but so much damn fun all in the same boat.

 

[zedro]

its actually more about exit speeds, if you come into a corner too fast and then brake in the turn, you have have a higher avg speed but if youre coming out of the corner slower thatn ure f*ed, watch some f-1 racing, they're pros

yeah but 'late-braking' is a cornering mistake unlike braking later. But of course its all about brake later/accelerate sooner

 

[thaflyinfatman]

We did a shuttle run of San Juan trail yesterday, the dirt was epic after the rains. I have done this trail a lot over the years, but not often recently-but I know all the turns etc.
Its about 40 minutes down with an a$$load of turns, loose ones, switchback ones, etc, the whole gammut.

I have followed my buddy down this trail a 100 times, he is the fastest guy I know and knows the trail better than I do. My goal is to always stay with him as long as I can, watch him and learn. That goal is never attained.

I try to emulate his cornering technique every time, I do ok for a few turns then get a little gapped, chase, mess up, chase harder, almost die. Anyways, he is never skidding through the turns and as long as I have ridden MTB's I know this to be the general rule, 'slow in fast out' etc and I make errors the whole way down, knowing what I SHOULD do, but always grab gobs of brakes IN the turns....all the while talking to myself "stupid stupid stupid"...I remember a few turns towards the bottom as I was chasing him down squeezing my brakes IN the turn in a pulsating style and I want to stop, get off and punch myself in the face.

Frustrating as hell, but so much damn fun all in the same boat.

The slow-in-fast-out thing used to be the accepted theory with GP bikes too. Mick Doohan once said he preferred fast in fast out, however.

 

[Heath Sherratt]

Yeah, sometimes you have to be slow to go fast. Smooth and easy, like Big House in Synopsis at Infineon. Look at how effortlessly he rides and then watch Mick Hannah. Hannah looks ferocious and insanely fast. Big house looks slow and lethargic, but Houseman wins. Sam hill is another great cornerer. He looks slow into the turns because he doesn't brake through them but you seem him explode out and accelerating so quickly. It's so awesome to watch I wish I could just ride with some pros for a couple of weeks straight. It would be worth so much.

 

[stiksandstones]

Also on that ride I spoke to my buddy about some of the gadgets we were presented with over the years.
One time this guy came to my house, wanted us to test this thing. He made a shift lever, attached to a custom bottom bracket he made....the lever would push a metal pin into the BB to lock the cranks in a 9 and 3 position!
He was a road racer (ducati) and told us how beneficial it would be to have a 'standing on solid pegs' feel while turning...we obliged him in his nuttyness and had him install on one of our bikes...it was comedy.
We even tested for him, what a pile of crap death trap.

 

[Red Bull]

This is somewhat relevent, but I went from a Demo 9 with a 15" bb to a DHR with a 13.6" bb and my cornering has improved 100%. I can now hit sections much faster and only grab a little brake before the corner and jet out. A low bb and a good cornering bike definitely help you get into good habits as opposed to a bike thats so tall you need to stay on the brakes the whole turn to keep it upright.

 

[dhkid]

i would agree that braking late into corners would be faster but when i try to do that i end up screwing up the corner most of the time. but what i love doing in tight/fast corners is brake as hard as i can up to the last munite, then lean into the corner striaght away. it preloads the suspension and you get really nice traction through the corner. railing is always faster, drifting is just so that you can turn faster.

 

[noname]

I've found that most peoples problems with corners is vision, stop looking at the corner and start looking through it, gives you more reaction time, people look ahead when they ride, right up to the corner, then they stare at it like a test they didn't study for till they're halfway thruogh, it's hard but once yhou get it sorted in your head you'll be incredibly fast and smooth.

 

[IntensedhRider]

Brake before. It really depends on the corner. Sometimes its even good to lock it up and throw the bake end oppisite the direction of the corner, and then just let go and skid around. Back brake only! Lots of people make mistakes by braking with both brakes in corners. It's either both before the corner, or the rear only, in the corner. Much better just to brake before, that way you can come out with the speed you want, and not have to waste energy pedaling out.

 

[Bicyclist]

Brake before. It really depends on the corner. Sometimes its even good to lock it up and throw the bake end oppisite the direction of the corner, and then just let go and skid around. Back brake only! Lots of people make mistakes by braking with both brakes in corners. It's either both before the corner, or the rear only, in the corner. Much better just to brake before, that way you can come out with the speed you want, and not have to waste energy pedaling out.

This guy def. knows what he's talking about!

 

[ghettogt76]

Good thread, we need more of these on RM!!

 

[ioscope]

In the case of braking bumps, brake before them, because they are smoother off the brakes, even on a hardtail, but moreso on a long travel bike.

 

[nixhexss]

In the case of braking bumps, brake before them, because they are smoother off the brakes, even on a hardtail, but moreso on a long travel bike.

brake before, take the wider BUT smoother line around the bumps...it might be longer, but it may be quicker cuz its smooth, or double'em up, use'em as a mini rythm

 

[- seb]

Lots of interesting points of view! I know there's no substitute for getting on the bike and riding, but when I'm stuck in an office and it's raining outside it's nice to have something like this to muse over!

One of my problems is that as soon as I get on a bike I forget all about my plans of how to improve my technique, and just start hitting stuff without thinking about it. I'm going to try to make a conscious effort to think about my technique at the top of the trail, before I sprint off!

 

[360]

Exactly seb, I find putting almost any theory into practise nigh on impossible in all but the most basic corners and i think thats why your analogy with karting doesn't hold up, theres not really much to think about apart from your braking coming into a corner in a kart.

Also theres a few corners at inners that i can think of where braking in the corner seems much better, corners that your dropping into or really squashed into, with sketchy run ups.

btw theres uplift 8/9th april, you shoudl come up. I'll show you how this braking things done