[tuumbaq]

Alright I know its still pretty far out there but Im wondering about the Demo platform.Anyone has an inside scoop on that ? Will they finally come up with a true DH racer bike one day?

We've been seeing a lot of pretty cool things coming out of the big "S" lately but not so much on the DH side of things....

 

[kidwoo]

What are you talking about?


They make TWO extremely capable dh bikes that many people are racing on.


What's not dh about a 64 degree headangle and a 14" bb?

 

[EVRAC]

I'm also interested in what they'll have next year. I heard the demo series was done and they had something new. I'm thinking it will be similar to trek with the fuel/remedy/session all using the same suspension design. Specialized will likely tweak the new enduro/pitch/stumpjumper line into a big rig. Could be good.

Or maybe they'll blow me away with a gearbox bike.

 

[tuumbaq]

the Demo could be a bit lighter don't you think? A longer chainstay as well.They could also tweak the head tube with a 1.5 so you could run a flush mount HS.I know they're already doing it with the 7 but it looks pretty last minute IMO...Looking at what they did with the Stumpjumper they could certainly refine the head tube on the demo.

Actually Im no engineer so perhaps Im completely off the track but I think they Demo was never meant to be a wold cup winning machine...More of a pretty darn fast Freeride bike.

If you look at what else is out there, the Demo is a bit outdated...Im not saying is a bad bike, probably one of the best bike on the market but we're far from the Shaun Palmer's years...

 

[tuumbaq]

Or maybe they'll blow me away with a gearbox bike.

Now that would be radical...I'd love to see that

 

[kidwoo]

the Demo could be a bit lighter don't you think?.

How much do you think a demo 8 frame weighs?

I don't remember exactly what mine was but my complete bike with a dhx, 888 ata, and heavy 729 rims with straight gauge spokes weighs under 41lbs. I could easily get it under 40 with lighter wheels.

I know when I weighed it, it was over a pound lighter than my 04-06 style turner

A longer chainstay as well.They could also tweak the head tube with a 1.5 so you could run a flush mount HS.I know they're already doing it with the 7 but it looks pretty last minute IMO...Looking at what they did with the Stumpjumper they could certainly refine the head tube on the demo.

Actually Im no engineer so perhaps Im completely off the track but I think they Demo was never meant to be a wold cup winning machine...More of a pretty darn fast Freeride bike.

If you look at what else is out there, the Demo is a bit outdated...Im not saying is a bad bike, probably one of the best bike on the market but we're far from the Shaun Palmer's years...

I hate so say it but I think you're a marketing victim. Other than kyle strait and some smaller names like Chris Herndon and Kurtis Keene, they don't have a huge race team.....but that doesn't mean their bikes aren't immediately comparable to other 'race' marketed frames out there. There are some of us who like that short chainstay.....it makes the bike manual easier with a low bb and pivot easier through turns. Just because matt hunter et al are the only ones you see pics of riding these bikes doesn't mean much if you're not looking at the bike yourself and determining how it compares.

Would you say something like a turner DHR is a race bike? How bout an iron horse sunday? Demo 8s have the same headangle as a sunday, just a tad higher bb, and are slacker and lower than the DHRs. As far as the 1.5 headtube...sure it could use it I guess but it's not the only dh bike running a 1 1/8.

And how can a frame be outdated when they just redesigned the thing from the ground up last year? It's NOTHING like the 05/06 frames.

Take one for a ride. It's as dh race as anything out there.

 

[Kanye West]

The newer Demo 8's are badass except for the super short chainstays. If it weren't for that I'd ride one.

 

[kidwoo]

I don't get it.

What's bad about a short chainstay?

They lengthened the wheelbase on the new design so the bikes actually feel longer than the old version. Have any of you guys ever ridden a bike and said "damn this would be really cool if the chainstay was longer".

 

[BigHitComp04]

My 08 Demo 8 II STOCK weighs 39.6 lbs...thats pretty damn light for a stock bike. And if it isnt a DH bike i dont know what is. It goes fast. Ricky Bobby would approve.

 

[Kanye West]

They lengthened the wheelbase on the new design so the bikes actually feel longer than the old version. Have any of you guys ever ridden a bike and said "damn this would be really cool if the chainstay was longer".

Yes. That's actually the first thing that came to mind. I thought they were going to be longer than they were before I got on the bike. It just makes sliding the bike around (and holding a slide) kinda sketchy, especially at speed. It would have been awesome if they made some sort of sliding dropout thing.

 

[caputo1989]

You put a 150mm rear hub and a dual crown on the Demo 7 and i'd be all over it. Specialguys make some sweet rides.

 

[kidwoo]

Yes. That's actually the first thing that came to mind. I thought they were going to be longer than they were before I got on the bike. It just makes sliding the bike around (and holding a slide) kinda sketchy, especially at speed.

You crazy


These things rail. You sure it wasn't the tires on the guy's bike you rode?


My first instinct would be that it's a height thing but I know at least two guys over 6 feet that kill it on these bikes.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Hey tuumbaq-

Have you ever seen Chris Herndon ride?

 

[caputo1989]

You crazy


These things rail. You sure it wasn't the tires on the guy's bike you rode?


My first instinct would be that it's a height thing but I know at least two guys over 6 feet that kill it on these bikes.

Yeah, One of my teamates has one and the kid kills it on his demo.

 

[Jettj45]

the Demo could be a bit lighter don't you think? A longer chainstay as well.They could also tweak the head tube with a 1.5 so you could run a flush mount HS.I know they're already doing it with the 7 but it looks pretty last minute IMO...Looking at what they did with the Stumpjumper they could certainly refine the head tube on the demo.

Actually Im no engineer so perhaps Im completely off the track but I think they Demo was never meant to be a wold cup winning machine...More of a pretty darn fast Freeride bike.

If you look at what else is out there, the Demo is a bit outdated...Im not saying is a bad bike, probably one of the best bike on the market but we're far from the Shaun Palmer's years...

So your saying 39lbs is too heavy for a DH bike...? Because thats how much the Demo 8 II weights. How is the demo an outdated bike lol, its one of the best on the market and is far from what shaun palmer raced on.

 

[Jettj45]

Hey tuumbaq-

Have you ever seen Chris Herndon ride?

Yeah he looks pretty slow with that heavy demo haha.

 

[Kanye West]

You crazy


These things rail. You sure it wasn't the tires on the guy's bike you rode?


My first instinct would be that it's a height thing but I know at least two guys over 6 feet that kill it on these bikes.

Rolla's, my new obsession. It feels like they'd be cool on stuff like Whistler that's all groomed where you don't need to slide through chop too much.

I rode a medium and a large. The medium was too small for me at 6'1 (hitting my knees on the bars), and the large felt pretty spot on except for the short back end. The wheelbase and head angle was where I wanted it but the pedals were way too far back.

 

[Jeremy R]

Having owned both an 06 Demo 8 and now a new Demo 8, I can tell you that they are drastically different. The new one is ALL race.
The old Demos were really soft off the top, and then ramped up really hard in the last part of the travel. The new linkage rides much stiffer off the top, but is then linear througout the rest of the travel.
It pedals alot better, and holds itself up in the travel more, but it plows through the rough stuff. Its obvious from anyone who had ridden one that it is a race bike.
The frame is light, and the 1 1/8 headtube allows me to run a 97 gram Cane Creek 110 headset.
Ah hell, I had more to say but I am tired of typing.
Just go ride one.

 

[CRoss]

The wheelbase and head angle was where I wanted it but the pedals were way too far back.

You liked the wheelbase but at the same time want to make it longer? Sounds like maybe a shorter toptube is what you are after.

 

[kidwoo]

but the pedals were way too far back.

I think I kind of know this feeling. It sounds similar to what I felt riding my demo 8 with an 8" fork in the slack setting.....I think it comes more from the front wheel being way out front. It does kind of feel like you're standing over the rear wheel. But this was running the same rear and fork springs as I had on my turner. It ended up needing a suspension setup that was comparatively stiffer in the rear and softer end the front.

Once the bike is balanced though, it feels like a good dh bike. Not a bike with a rear end that's too short, just a bike.....like every other one out there.

 

[WBC]

Different strokes for different folks!

The one thing I couldn't stand about my demo and SXtrail was the chainstay. The Sunday chainstay is perfect for an all around DH rig for most people, in my opinion. The Turner I'll be riding this season will definitely be a touch long for tight terrain, but I know I'll love the length once I start racing and riding resorts and the interior. Long chainstays definitely have their place.

The thing with short chainstays, even with long front centers, feel skittish when you're super ragged at speed. I also felt like my Demo/SXT left me hanging off the back and never really wanted to turn the way I felt a DH bike should, nor could I get my pumping action firmly planted. That said, I loved it when the trail was slow because the front end came off the ground easy and FSR bikes do pop. Finally, I've yet to ride an FSR bike that felt like it was supposed to keep going fast when monstertrucking though rocks. Singlepivots and VPP/DW bikes feel like they get hung up much less. That may just be mental, but it's something that I consciously notice.

As far as manualling a longer chainstay bike, just play around on the street for awhile. You'll feel like a dork for riding street on your downhill bike, but it allows you to focus on just one part of your riding, as opposed to everything that is involved with trailriding. People can manual BB7s, enough said.

All of this is said without riding an '08 Demo setup for me, but I have spent time on an 07 and it reminded me why I was so in love with my Sunday when I first got it after riding my Demo for a couple years.

KidWoo, I've seen your vids and you're a great rider, and I'm sure the Demo is a great rig and it makes many really happy, just like my bikes make me happy. I'm just saying some some like em long!

 

[bikenweed]

I've got extensive time on the '06 Demo 8 and the Sunday. I'm the same speed on both. Both are good race bikes. The Sunday might be a tad better in high-speed stuff, and the Demo pumped slightly better through slow rock gardens. In the end, they're the same. I've been timing all my local DH trails on both, and physical fitness is the only thing that will make either bike go faster.

Demo 8= great race bike. But it could have a better marketing campaign.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm just saying some some like em long!

Freaks!!

Freaks I tell you!!!



I talked to dave turner (gratuitous name drop) not too long ago about potential changes to the DHR. I kept saying (along with some others apparently) to go lower at the bb and shorter at the rear end. Partially because both of these go hand in hand. A lower bb makes the front end harder to get up, a shorter rear end makes it easier. By doing both, you get the nice lower center of gravity from the lower bb but without losing some of the pop by trying to use that lower bb with the same long rear end. Changing one or the other would alter the handling too much.....which currently is really good. He said very few people had ever mentioned that symbiosis to him. Kind of a shame. But that's how I look at it. My demo BB is about 13.8...kinda low. But with that shorter rear end it honestly doesn't feel any easier to get over the back end than an 07/08 dhr. The dhr actually feels a little easier to me,....partially because of that bb height. (shorter top tube too I think)

He also said I was asking for the exact opposite of what his guys in europe wanted......they were asking for LONGER rear ends. Which actually makes sense because those guys have real dh tracks where 40mph is the rule not the rarity.

But my point is only that it's tough to just look at one measurement (like chainstay) and compare it other bikes. You have to look at how that measurement works with the others, because they're VERY intertwined. I wouldn't write off a bike without looking at the whole picture.


Thanks for the vid comments......they're about to get a whole lot better

 

[Kanye West]

The top tube length is somewhat irrelevant to the fit of a DH bike, but the downtube is what needed to be a little shorter while keeping the same wheelbase (effectively making the chainstay longer).

I like sliding the bike, a lot. I also like to be running a good amount of sag (35-40%) in the back and keeping the bike stiff in the front to balance out nicely when you're heading down a slope. With that setup when I'm riding the bike stays long and low and stable, even when it doesn't have traction. My 6" bike is a different story. The head angle is 64 degrees with a 66 SL ATA and the chainstay is 16.5" and the BB is something friggin ridiculous at like 12.75 or 13", but I run it stiff on both ends.

It just feels to me like you get some more leverage over the back end with the chainstay a little longer. That's somewhat counter intuitive if you think about it (plus denying some fundamental laws of physics) but thats the way it feels. Maybe it's just the fact that you can push the back end out further with a smaller movement at the cranks?

 

[kidwoo]

The top tube length is somewhat irrelevant to the fit of a DH bike, but the downtube is what needed to be a little shorter while keeping the same wheelbase (effectively making the chainstay longer).

I've got page long posts about this somewhere deep in this site.

When I say 'top tube', I mean the length of the front end.....bb to headtube.

My 6" bike is a different story. The head angle is 64 degrees with a 66 SL ATA and the chainstay is 16.5" and the BB is something friggin ridiculous at like 12.75 or 13", but I run it stiff on both ends.

What the hell bike is that?

You're measuring the headangle and bb unsagged right?

 

[KavuRider]

A few local rippers ride Demos.
Great bikes, kinda wish I had bought a Demo 9 when they were out. The Demo 8 is a sick rig. Awesome race bike.

That's all I have to contribute.

 

[tuumbaq]

OK guys this thread has completely derailed.I guess I didnt make myself clear.

I own a freakin Demo so you dont have to sell me on it.Mine is 38 W pounds and its pretty light.What I really meant to say is that it would be nice to see something RADICALLY new from Specialized...I was just throwing some ideas where I thought they might be able to improve a bit but like I said Im no engineer.

All Im saying is, if you look at what specialized has accomplished with many of their other bikes, its quite impressive but they haven't done too much technological breakthrough recently with the Demo.

As far as marketing goes Im 32 years old and I've learned how to make up my own mind,.I couldn't care less about what Sam hill or other riders are riding. Although I do not neglect the fact those guys are giving back important feedback helping with the development of a better bike.I don't think Kyle Strait does that.

The guys at Specialized are at the top of their game in many other biking discipline so why aren't they putting more $$$ into DH?I find it a bit odd...I guess its not their cup of tea.

There might be a lot of guys riding Demos in the States but in Europe there's practically none.Most likely a distribution thing but there's some pretty sweet FULL ON RACER bikes made in Europe.Sunn,Lapierre,Commencal to name a few I had a chance to see a Sunn from up close and that thing looked like a freakin' missile...lethal on a race course

I had the very first generation of Demo 9, then 2 of the same Demo 8 and finally the newest generation, so Im well aware of the changes they went thru over the past years.

Like WBC said some people like short chainstay and other dont, and Im sure it goes hand in hand with the place you ride.

Im in Whistler and sometimes I feel that I could use a longer chainstay and the front end of the bike is a bit tall for me.

So back to my original question, does anyone know when and if they are planning to change the Demo's?

 

[Kanye West]

bb to headtube.

Yes....downtube...

What the hell bike is that?

You're measuring the headangle and bb unsagged right?

Yup! It's a Sinister Splinter MX. Unfortunately not made anymore. It's basically about as fast as my DH bike unless you're trying to go over 30 or pull some insane rock line, but has to be ridden WAY differently (manualling, hopping and hipping through stuff). A DH bike should be made to be taking those insane rock lines and be comfortable when it gets sketchy.

I find it rather hopeless that crapholes like Fontana/Sea Otter are dictating trends in DH bike design, especially with its proximity to Intense/Turner/Foes and even Specialized/SC in the same state.

 

[kidwoo]

Yes....downtube...

No sh1t sherlock

Just kidding. That's the first measurement I look at when buying a bike. For all the reasons that you obviously already know. I used to get made fun of on this very site for advocating that over a top tube measurement.

Yup! It's a Sinister Splinter MX.

That thing sounds pretty sweet. Other than the 64 headangle, that would be my ultimate trailbike.

 

[Slater]

Sounds like you guys who think the demo is twitchy at high speeds need better/different tires. It has taken time to get comfortable letting the back end go, but with the right tires it does great. I absolutely love the combination of the long cockpit and short stays/lowish bb. We've got some serious chunk here in San Diego and my demo mows through it like nothing.

I honestly thing the skepticism/complaining about the demo not being a full on race bike is nothing more than the lack of a UCI team and accompanying marketing.

 

[Bikerpunk241]

Just get out and ride is what it boils down to, people go fast on all things, it really just boils down to your riding style, don't believe the hype, try it and see, screw what others say...... That said, it wouldn't surprise me to see a Demo come out with the newer rocker style of the Enduros/Stumpys. I doubt it will be next year, but probably in the next couple. I imagine the next line in their lineup to see a face lift will be the fsr xc's, as they're a cheaper bike, but still to tall (stand over wise) for short people. Just my speculations, you don't have to believe me if you don't want, think for yourself.....

 

[pdawg]

The '08 Demo 8 frame is 10.5 lbs. according to Specialized. Making a sub-40 pound build should be no problem. This the same weight the Intense M3, but with slacker head angle and better warranty.

As for the headtubes, the Cobra forged design is quite well refined. Have you checked one out in person? Since the demo 8 is designed around a DC fork, it does not really need a 1.5 headtube.

 

[WBC]

Sounds like you guys who think the demo is twitchy at high speeds need better/different tires.

No, tires are of particular and peculiar importance to me. I spend a lot of money making sure that I am always riding fresh and sharp Minion DHFs in the summer and Highrollers in the winter.

It really is the geometry.

I don't think it has as much to do with riding environment as it does with riding style. I live in NW Washington (the same terrain as the big bad GnarthShore) and I'm asking for long, low and slack - whereas Woo is from Utah/Cali/Nevada and wants short, steep, and unanimously - low.

I do agree with Woo on the high/low vs short/long. I just don't like my front end coming up that easy when I'm going fast! Also, I think the Turner actually rides the same or lower than the D8 once sagged (13.8+ vs 13.8 even, but softer off the top). Turner's numbers on the site are a fair amount different than what I've measured in real life w/ Fox40/Boxxer and 2.5 Maxxis.

The best feeling bike I've ever felt in term of geo is the new M6. 17.25+ CS, 13.3BB, sub64 HA. It's everything I've ever dreamed of. I have a baller ass frame (08 Turner), and every day I think about how much better a M6 would treat me!

BTW, I meant what I said about the videos. You should post more up cause spring quarter has me spending way too much time fiddle****ing around on the internet, so I may as well piss my time away watchin vids and getting stoked on summer rather than arguing about chainstays!

 

[Kanye West]

Tires have sh*t to do with it. The fastest section of the Kamikaze at Mammoth feels about the same with semi slicks as it does with fresh Minion F's or Comp 32. It's 100% geometry and how you can weight each end.

I personally like the long cockpit, long chainstay, and slack front end, but I'm 6'1 and all arms and legs with a short torso, so "long" is all relative. The Demo chainstay probably feels super short to me because I can shift my weight around a lot more on the bike since I'm just a lanky mo-fo.

 

[dsotm]

That thing sounds pretty sweet. Other than the 64 headangle, that would be my ultimate trailbike.

It has VERY adjustable geometry, I think you can set the HA as steep as 67 or 68 degrees with a 14 in. BB and it is infinitely adjustable in between (some years at least).

 

[MDJ]

I saw the Specialized guys out on the trail the other day with the new Proto. It is a rocker arm gearbox, headtube adjustable between 1.125 and 1.5, and has one short and one long chainstay. There, that should make all you guys happy.

 

[BigHitComp04]

I saw the Specialized guys out on the trail the other day with the new Proto. It is a rocker arm gearbox, headtube adjustable between 1.125 and 1.5, and has one short and one long chainstay. There, that should make all you guys happy.

Sounds SICK! I think i saw a spy shot somewhere, im pretty sure there were wings on it, it was hard to tell, ill see if i can find the pic...

 

[iRider]

No sh1t sherlock

Just kidding. That's the first measurement I look at when buying a bike. For all the reasons that you obviously already know. I used to get made fun of on this very site for advocating that over a top tube measurement.

They did? This is a very informative measurement IMO, especially for DH/FR/DJ bikes. Also I don't get why so many people still measure the BB height. The BB drop (drop or raise of the BB over a line between the front an rear axle) is independent from the tires that you run and can be easier compared between different setups. Still influenced by the A to C of the fork though.

 

[dante]

The '08 Demo 8 frame is 10.5 lbs. according to Specialized.

thank you. can we vote on a N8 for anyone trying to use complete bike weights to justify whether a frame is light or not? the difference between a 9lb and an 11lb frame is huge, but the difference between 39lbs and 41lbs could be tire and tube selection.

 

[vald]

Hello guys. I saw something like that, with a new Fox Fork 38 with 180 mm. What do you think?