[Sandwich]

Can anybody tell me how far I should be going down on squats? Everything I hear tells me thighs parallel to the floor. Some people say your shins should be vertical and your knees shouldn't pass your toes...but when I get down there my balance is too thrown off if I try to balance that far back, and I feel like I'm straining my back to stay upright.

Should I just balance vertically like I feel is natural and let my knees go past my toes (only 1" or so) and my shins angle very slightly, or is it essential to your joints to do it "right"?

 

[In8Racing]

When I do squats, I feel like I'm leaning "slightly" backward - I mean very slightly. Balance isn't an issue because I'm on a smith machine.

My trainer says my form is good - thighs parallel with the floor at the bottom, and knees not passing the balls of your feet, don't lock your knees at the top.

To get that feel, my feet are maybe a couple of inches "out" from directly underneath the bar.

Let me know if I just confused you more....

 

[JRogers]

When I do squats, I feel like I'm leaning "slightly" backward - I mean very slightly. Balance isn't an issue because I'm on a smith machine.

My trainer says my form is good - thighs parallel with the floor at the bottom, and knees not passing the balls of your feet, don't lock your knees at the top.

To get that feel, my feet are maybe a couple of inches "out" from directly underneath the bar.

Let me know if I just confused you more....

If you use a machine, it makes the motion much easier. If I use a machine, I lean back quite a bit.

Thighs parallel with the floor is a good measure. Although, my old school football coaches used to basically tell us to go down until you hit the ground...

 

[Sandwich]

I'm not going that deep, that stuff scares me.

I just find that my center of balance is better if my knees are slightly ahead of my toes...if i try to get further back I feel like I'm going to fall backwards. I'm also wondering if that's because of poor conditioning or just the way it is.

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

I think that the more you do squats, the closer you can get to ideal form...doing squats outside the smith machine takes balance and core strength to do squats correctly...most people need to use less weight for a while and then slowly work their way up. I think this is the case because, while many people have the leg strength to squat a fair bit, they lack strength in many of the accessory muscles needed to have good form. My advice, drop weight until you can do it right, and then work back up...it won't take long.

Another form point, you should be pushing from your heals, and not up on your toes...I always make sure that I'm able to basically raise my toes off the ground as I push back up.

 

[In8Racing]

Are you using a smith machine or are you just carrying the bar on your shoulders with no guidance?

I think part of the reason for not getting your knee too forward is that it would put a bit more stress on the knee, whereas if you're feet are out a bit, your quads, hamis, and glutes will support the weight.

As with most of this stuff, everyone's different - so maybe what you're doing works for you. I'd just be careful with your knees.

Another tip would be to focus on keeping your back at around a 45 degree angle throught the squat, and forcing your butt back. If you concentrate on that, you should be ok.

 

[Akula_7]

First off real men don't use the Smith machine. To answer your question. Knees should never ever go beyond your toes. Back should be straight, neutral and under no-undue pressure. You should squat as far as go can down while keeping within the above parameters. Once your core/torso/back get strong enough you will be able to go deeper and lower. Once you are really strong, I mean real functional strength then you should be able to go "ass to grass" (nearly) with out the aid of a smith machine or any other faggotry!

Start with a nice light weight on an olympic bar (40kg) and just start squating smoothly and well, starting at 4sets of 3reps, try variations too like front squats etc...

Hope all that helped.

 

[In8Racing]

I mean real functional strength then you should be able to go "ass to grass" (nearly) with out the aid of a smith machine or any other faggotry!

Classic closet homo statement...

 

[Jim Mac]

I think that the more you do squats, the closer you can get to ideal form...doing squats outside the smith machine takes balance and core strength to do squats correctly...most people need to use less weight for a while and then slowly work their way up. I think this is the case because, while many people have the leg strength to squat a fair bit, they lack strength in many of the accessory muscles needed to have good form. My advice, drop weight until you can do it right, and then work back up...it won't take long.

Another form point, you should be pushing from your heals, and not up on your toes...I always make sure that I'm able to basically raise my toes off the ground as I push back up.

My sentiments exactly! Following advice from James/mtbstrengthcoach dude, I have been getting back into core strength lifts after 20 years of avoiding them and it has been quite humbling!

For example, I can do sets of leg presses with 450 + lbs, but I began squats with 135 and deadlifts with 250 + for reps and crap am I sore! Using good form, I can feel the difference in working a fuller spectrum of muscle groups that you would use in dh racing, especially in starts.

 

[FCLinder]

Here is a great example of how to do a proper squat. You are all right about the Knees should never ever go beyond your toes. The best way to do squats is on the Smith Machine and it has nothing to do with “if you are a man or not”. It helps with the balance. If anything I like the Hack Squat machine better than the Smith. I was a personal trainer for 8 years and have worked with many athletes from all sports. There are many different ways to do squat “close step, wide step, and etc., but all variations you never want to go to deep into the squat, because it puts to much presser on the ACL and the rest of the knee.

 

[SuspectDevice]

The best way to do squats is on the Smith Machine and it has nothing to do with “if you are a man or not”. It helps with the balance. If anything I like the Hack Squat machine better than the Smith. ]

Bahhhhlthumbsdown: We are bike riders, not weight lifters. The best way for any athelete to do any resistance training is with free weights and proper form. We don't train to be able to squat, we train to build strength that transfers over to riding bikes. I don't usually DH while wearing a squat rack....

 

[Jim Mac]

I don't usually DH while wearing a squat rack....

Then how'd you get so beefy?! HA! (updates on Earthed 4?) - Jim

 

[Jeremy R]

the Smith Machine. It helps with the balance.

Which is exactly why you do not want to use it.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Then how'd you get so beefy?! HA! (updates on Earthed 4?) - Jim

It's here, I've watched it every 10 minutes. Finalizing details!

 

[Cant Climb]

That guy has the bar placed improperly on his back.......as do 98% of the people you see squatting in the local gym.

It should be much much lower on his back. Takes strain off the lower back, promotes better balance and power.....

Have someone teach/show you proper form, like a knowledgable strength coach or experienced power lifter.....don't listen to some juiced up hack or some self proclaimed personal trainer....

 

[In8Racing]

...but all variations you never want to go to deep into the squat, because it puts to much presser on the ACL and the rest of the knee.

Thanks for the affirmation.

I personally don't think a person is more or less "gay" for using a smith machine vs. a free weight rack. I had my own half rack - free weight set up for about 5 years, and within the last 6 months started using the smith machine. One thing I'll say is, if you're doing squats right - you're using your core either way.

The smith machine allows me to go heavier, safer. Currently I'm only at a final set of 8 at 285 lbs, but hope to be close to 350 for 8 by this spring. We'll see...

 

[FCLinder]

Bahhhhlthumbsdown: We are bike riders, not weight lifters. The best way for any athelete to do any resistance training is with free weights and proper form. We don't train to be able to squat, we train to build strength that transfers over to riding bikes. I don't usually DH while wearing a squat rack....

Yes form is everything and I do understand what you are saying, but understand a person using free weights will most likely have a knee injury over someone that does use the machines. Most don’t think about form when lifting, they think about getting the job done. I know, I have been there. I put small tares in my ACL, MCL, and T-Band by lifting too much weight using free weights over the years. Then one day at a race the knee finally went. I was off the bike for almost 2 years because of it too and now have no T-Band in my right knee. I understand you need to work on balance, but not with 250+lbs on your back and knees. There are many other ways to work on balance, and working with the machines and doing the right exercises will also help you build you core up the same as with free weights.

 

[Pegboy]

While I agree that the above picture is good form(although he could go to 90* at the knee), I disagree with the statement about machines which is backed in the same sentance. Machines do aid in balance which is why they should not be the first choice for sport training. Balance is as essential as power and if you are cheating by not developing the stabilizing muscles, then your body will be out of balance.

I had the opportunity to train 4 summers in a row at the Olympic Training Center with the head US strength and conditioning coach and the workouts he developed for me were all without machines for this very reason. I ws training for alpine ski racing which requires much of the same muscles and explosiveness vs. cardio.

Another great exercise is to use the exact same form with dumbells. Slowly lower into the squat position and then explode upwards thrusting your hips foward and legs into extension. You are basically going for vertical leap but only use your arms as ropes to attach your body to the weight. Make sure you are warmed up and have stretched properly as you can do some damage if you have not. This is a great exercise to follow regular squats (using a bar) with, I would do reps until I could not get off the ground any longer. You will gain excellent exploding power as well as getting the heart rate UP, both great for DH.

 

[Sandwich]

I use a regular bar.

My form probably looks a lot like the photo posted. It doesn't seem like he (me) is going down far enough, and I agree that 90` seems about right. The problem is that when i try to go 90, my knees want to go forward. If I prevent them from going forward, I feel like I'm straining my back. I do reps with 180+bar then 90+ bar for strength then form. I just don't want my form to suffer when I go low.

 

[Cant Climb]

While I agree that the above picture is good form(although he could go to 90* at the knee), .

that guy is lifting like 90 pounds.....put 600 pounds on there and see how his neck feels.....needs to be about 4-5 inches lower....

 

[FCLinder]

that guy is lifting like 90 pounds.....put 600 pounds on there and see how his neck feels.....needs to be about 4-5 inches lower....

I do agree with that, as I could not find the perfect pic on the web to show. This was the best thing I could find at the time. The form is more of what I was trying to show.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Another great exercise is to use the exact same form with dumbells. Slowly lower into the squat position and then explode upwards thrusting your hips foward and legs into extension. You are basically going for vertical leap but only use your arms as ropes to attach your body to the weight. Make sure you are warmed up and have stretched properly as you can do some damage if you have not. This is a great exercise to follow regular squats (using a bar) with, I would do reps until I could not get off the ground any longer. You will gain excellent exploding power as well as getting the heart rate UP, both great for DH.

I have all of my riders do everything with dumbbells. The best dynamic lift I have them doing is hanging power cleans. That is a totally rad lift for DH riders.

 

[JRogers]

I definitely agree that freeweight squats develop secondary muscles and balance. I mainly used the smith machines after I stopped squatting regularly and when I hadn't done squats in a while. It makes it easier to do them...not always good thing in the long run , but helpful for learning or if you have continuous problems with proper form.

Not that I do squats now anyways...

 

[Mike Buell]

I use a regular bar.

My form probably looks a lot like the photo posted. It doesn't seem like he (me) is going down far enough, and I agree that 90` seems about right. The problem is that when i try to go 90, my knees want to go forward. If I prevent them from going forward, I feel like I'm straining my back. I do reps with 180+bar then 90+ bar for strength then form. I just don't want my form to suffer when I go low.

You should work in some front squats, I always felt the same as you with the knees wanting to go forward and having to much pressure on the toes and strain on the lower back, doing front squats has really helped me get my form down, they almost force you to keep the weight on your heels and back much more strait up and down. Now when I do regular squats good form is more natural and less of a challenge. Make sure to start light though and get the form down.

 

[Sandwich]

thanks for the input mike. I'll work on those and drop some weight from the regular squats and wait for my muscles to form up. I've only started working out a month or two ago, and I don't do squats every day. It just doesn't feel like I'm doing it right, and I wasn't sure what the guidelines are. I don't have a workout buddy to critique me.

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

I put small tares in my ACL, MCL, and T-Band by lifting too much weight using free weights over the years. Then one day at a race the knee finally went. I was off the bike for almost 2 years because of it too and now have no T-Band in my right knee. I understand you need to work on balance, but not with 250+lbs on your back and knees.

While I'm not a fan of the smith, I agree with your point that in training, people need to think about the benefits AND risks of what they are doing. I'd bet that if you can squat 200 to 250 for sets of 8 or 10, that you have gained the lion's share of the benefits from doing squats at pretty much any weight...ie the risk/benefit ratio is best when you do reasonable weight with excellent form. I can feel major benefits working with relatively light weights...I was squatting well over 300 using the ass to grass method when I weighed 150 in high school, but I don't really feel like it was any better than where I am now working around 200 pounds with good form (I'm 27 now). Sure the pros need every possible advantage, but most of us aren't pros if we are honest with ourselves...

 

[Sandwich]

yeah i don't want too much muscle, but fitness and endurance are huge. I'd like to work up to sets of 20-25 with a moderate weight.

 

[FCLinder]

yeah i don't want too much muscle, but fitness and endurance are huge. I'd like to work up to sets of 20-25 with a moderate weight.

Try running stairs and doing running sprints. That will help build up your quick twitch muscles a lot more than what most people think it does. And Yes, doing running sprints will help with our style of cycling.

Good luck man....

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

You can also enhance power gain by dropping weight a little and doing your motion more "explosively"--kinda like a jumping motion. Pliometrics are bad ass as well.

 

[Chimponarope]

The best advice I ever got on squatting is from a book called Brawn by Stuart McRoberts, although it is written from a bodybulding perspective it has something like 27 pages on learning how to squat right for yourself. I now squat 450lbs for 6, and 320lb for 20. Well worth the money I spent. As for smith machines I wouldn't bother for squats, the natural bar path is ever so slightly S shaped for most people not a perfect straight line so it can actually cause more problems than it solves.

 

[nh dude]

been doing alot of box jumps onto a 3' box. do 15 / 3 or 4 sets. its fun and people look at you odd and ask if you can dunk
i try to them the as quick as possible so i usually end up in a really low stance after soaking up the landing jump prior to jumping back up on the box. so its like starting from a wall sit almost
then i do one of those then i do squats

 

[ZHendo]

maybe i should start squatting...haven't done it since the end of the JV football summer training, which was, hmm, i guess the end of summer. i need to get stronger though with the squats, i do star jumps every now and then and i do plenty of freeweights at home, but there still isn't anything like squatting. i think i'll try the idea of exploding up with the freeweights. damn though, some of you guys are squatting a ****load, i can't even remember what i was repping, but it wasn't even close to 320 lbs or anything.

 

[Nagaredama]

How about doing some overhead squats and build some torso strength at the same time.

 

[Mtnrider]

I have all of my riders do everything with dumbbells. The best dynamic lift I have them doing is hanging power cleans. That is a totally rad lift for DH riders.

Hey SuspectDevice...

I didn't get a chance to read all of the posts in this thread to detail...
But can you explain this statement to me in more detail please? First the doing everything with dumbbells, can you please be more specific? And also the hanging power cleans? I hope to improve my fitness for DH this winter; I could care less about everything else. I just want performance on the bike.

I would really appreciate any advice!

Thanks!

 

[davep]

dumbells are used as opposed to a single barbell so as to force both sides of your body to do the same amount of work, and to do it completely independant of the other side. In most exercises (think of bench press for example) dumbells also force the body to use more small, stabilizing muscles durring the motion. Definately adds another dimension if you are using a barbell for all exercises.

Another thing you can do in a similar (but different) vain, is to do all of your 'lay down' exercises on a ball. This will force your body to have to do more stabilization (mostly trunk/core) and help balance.

Hanging power cleans are like a standard clean, you just don't start on the ground..that is, the weight 'hangs' at the end of your arms at the begining. Google it, I am sure you can find some pics.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Hey SuspectDevice...

I didn't get a chance to read all of the posts in this thread to detail...
But can you explain this statement to me in more detail please? First the doing everything with dumbbells, can you please be more specific? And also the hanging power cleans? I hope to improve my fitness for DH this winter; I could care less about everything else. I just want performance on the bike.

I would really appreciate any advice!

Thanks!

Anything you can do with a bar you can do with dumbbells. Dumbells require more muscles for support and balance. A good trainer will be able to show you how to adapt things to dumbbells. You will be lifting far less weight, but you will be building more functional strength.

If you search the posts that mtbjames (that's his SN, right?) has put up you will find some real gems relating to resistance training for a dynamic sport like cycling.

I have developed a pretty nice system that changes over the course of an offeseason that develops both the specific strength you need for cycling and develops atheleticism as well. One of the most fun lifts that is integral through most of the phases is the hanging power clean. There are a few good resources that show up in a google search...

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/Clean.html

that is the standard clean, with dumbells you begin in a sort of anatomical position, and then drop into the intial jerk phase.

olympic lifts are advanced moves that require solid strenght and skill, and aren't a good idea to jump into lightly.

The clean is an excellent DH manuver as it really requires more core and upper body stabilisation that the standard squat. The key to succesfull training is of course, recovery and a balanced program as well....

(I need to go eat dinner before my head falls off)

 

[Mtnrider]

Thanks guys!

 

[Akula_7]

Classic closet homo statement...

I think that maybe the term "fag" or "gay" etc... is used far more litterally on your side of the the pond, over here in my little Island it is often used as a word to desribe someone who is a bit weak or "soft" and not just in its real world meaning of someone who likes sexual relations with the same sex. Sorry for any confusion caused.

But I still stick by what I am saying, any trainer who has half a clue will not have someone involved in a dynamic sport like DH doing strength training exercises with the stabalisation part cancelled out, just doesn't make sense. Using a Smith machine is good, but doing a squat "free" is much more benefical.

 

[JRogers]

I think that maybe the term "fag" or "gay" etc... is used far more litterally on your side of the the pond, over here in my little Island it is often used as a word to desribe someone who is a bit weak or "soft" and not just in its real world meaning of someone who likes sexual relations with the same sex. Sorry for any confusion caused.
.

Nope, same usage applies here....it's just usually homophobes and halfwits that tend to do it.