Great news. Big props to you Sam for showing real weight instead of posting this "bike can be build at XX lbs" BS.
Suggestions for lively DH bikes?
- Thread starter climbingbubba
- Start date
40.8
If you want to build a lively downhill bike I think it has less to do with the frame itself, and more to do with the settings....for instance bumping up your spring rate slightly, adding quite a bit of low-speed compression and slightly speeding up your rebound will do more for a bikes overall liveliness than anything else....building it on the lighter side helps too...especially in the wheels...unless you're comparing 10" travel monsters to 6" travel light duty bikes its pretty silly to compare the "liveliness" of comparable frames....
ustemuf
can you please give a short review on the double barrel/demo combination. I currently have a vivid air and love it. but the 2012 comes with a cane creek and I have been going back and fourth trying to decide if I keep the vivid air or give the double barrel a shot.
also. another vote for the demo. love it. it really does everything well. I can smash rock gardens and play on jump lines without changing a dang thing. not a bad word to say about it!
can you please give a short review on the double barrel/demo combination. I currently have a vivid air and love it. but the 2012 comes with a cane creek and I have been going back and fourth trying to decide if I keep the vivid air or give the double barrel a shot.
also. another vote for the demo. love it. it really does everything well. I can smash rock gardens and play on jump lines without changing a dang thing. not a bad word to say about it!
Yeah because every bike frame has the same leverage curve, length of chainstays, height of bottom bracket, geometry, rigidity.....
I am not disagreeing that the shock settings play a bigger role, but clearly it's silly for you to think that the frames don't make a difference.
yep, sicklines weighed a 2010 frame, in a Large. thx for the update. transition claimed frame weights have been pretty accurate IME. :thumbsup:
Thanks again everyone.
Still trying to see if its worth it to sell my bike now or just ride it the rest of the season and then sell it during the winter.
Maybe i'll try and test some bikes locally if I can track any down.
Still trying to see if its worth it to sell my bike now or just ride it the rest of the season and then sell it during the winter.
Maybe i'll try and test some bikes locally if I can track any down.
i think i should have been more clear, but when i said "COMPARABLE" i figured i was clear enough, and i was indicating that we were comparing similar frames....
i also never said "frames don't make a difference" but thanks for putting words in my mouth....clearly your reading comprehension is lacking.....
let's take 3 of the frames mentioned in the original posters options...banshee legend, spec. demo 8 and turner DHR.....all 3 of them are pretty similar in terms of geometry, frame dimensions, etc (most of the current crop of high quality race worthy DH bikes don't vary all that drastically for that matter) and all can be tweaked slightly to match one another to some degree(through anglesets, different shock tunes etc.)
all three bikes have relatively short chainstays, sub 14" BB's, suspension that resists bottoming, approx 63-64 deg head angles, and are all super rigid.....the bottom line is that there are no DRASTIC differences between these frames that translate on the trail as making one frame sluggish and another frame lively....GET IT?
my original point which you had a hard time understanding was that 3 bikes this similar are all going to be on par with one another in terms of "liveliness" and comparing these 3 bikes side by side in the "liveliness" dept is sort of silly....if you want them to be lively, learn how to set them up that way and do it, end of story.....
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sure. i agree with you. these frames don't make a difference, the DHR, the demo, and the legend will all ride the same since they all look the same on paper. why even bother with different suspension designs, pivot placement, wheelbase, wheelpaths etc when it's all determined by your shock.
this is really helpful advice for the original poster by saying it doesn't matter, any bike will be the same, just depends on your shock. very insightful, thank you - silly me to think otherwise. i wish i could care more about your opinion to spend time writing a story like yourself, end of reply.
Sorry but you're completely off the mark here, and ustemuf made a very valid point that should have formed the core of this thread to begin with.
Liveliness and pop are heavily dependent on a frame's leverage curve - which is why a classic Turner DHR (very progressive) actually has a lot more pop than a Sunday or Legend (both reasonably linear, progressive at the start but not hugely so). More progression means that you can easily eat into more travel, which means more return stroke (thus, energy stored in spring) available to assist you with getting the bike in the air. I haven't had a *lot* of experience with double-progressive designs (DWDHR, Revolt), but with my small amount of riding time, I believe they have less pop than a purely progressive bike (SP DHR, TR450), and more than the linear frames.
The downside to the pure progressive bikes is exactly the same thing that makes them fun/poppy - you blow through a lot of travel easily and sit deeper in the stroke. That's what DW's work aims to rectify with the dual-progression.
You can play with shock setup to compensate for these characteristics if you want, but ideally you would tune for going the fastest on each setup - which will generally mean that one frame will indeed have more pop than another.
ok, a few things....
i realize that the rate of a bike does affect (to a varying extent) how easily a bike jumps and pops, but the original poster was saying his local trails are 75% jumpy flowy 25% techy due to a change in his local park....he's asking for opinions and considering a different bike....personally, i have ridden bikes with all different rates(sunday, demo, glory, M9, and i've owned every iteration of the DHR ever made....) and once the rebound was where i wanted it, and i packed on some low speed compression(a personal preference to make my bikes feel poppier) i honestly don't feel like there was a massively note worthy difference between any of those bikes and how hard they were to jump or get off the ground....so to me, buying a different frame on that accord seems totally unecessary....
on a side note, conversely to what everyone says, the sunday was one of the poppiest bikes i've riden...i think that's due much in part to the damper that was on it though....
i expect what i say would be taken with a grain of salt as it's just my opinion and to some degree its based on feel and bike setup....i think what i said initially got taken way out of context...whatever....not a big deal
Not to discredit your experience, but I too have ridden all those bikes to a reasonable extent, and while they can all be setup to work quite well (like you say) - to say that there is little noteworthy difference, while it might be your opinion, isn't necessarily correct IMO.
For someone making their own decision, it might be useful to understand *why* some bikes might be easier to get off the ground, as well as how setup can influence that.
One thing you say that I don't really understand is how more low speed compression would give a bike more pop, in my experience it is the opposite, and it takes careful tuning to try and retain liveliness while running heavier compression damped setups (for example stronger mid-speed damping rather than having it heavy at very low shaft speeds).
If you think about what I said in my previous post, the more you compress a spring, the more energy it stores, and thus the more pop you get when it returns. Faster rebound helps this, but slower LS compression limits spring compression and thus reduces pop.
Every setup is a compromise of some sort, but I think that understanding why certain designs behave a certain way will give you a better chance at tuning around it for the best end result, as opposed to a one-size-fits-all approach.
For someone making their own decision, it might be useful to understand *why* some bikes might be easier to get off the ground, as well as how setup can influence that.
One thing you say that I don't really understand is how more low speed compression would give a bike more pop, in my experience it is the opposite, and it takes careful tuning to try and retain liveliness while running heavier compression damped setups (for example stronger mid-speed damping rather than having it heavy at very low shaft speeds).
If you think about what I said in my previous post, the more you compress a spring, the more energy it stores, and thus the more pop you get when it returns. Faster rebound helps this, but slower LS compression limits spring compression and thus reduces pop.
Every setup is a compromise of some sort, but I think that understanding why certain designs behave a certain way will give you a better chance at tuning around it for the best end result, as opposed to a one-size-fits-all approach.
Of the bikes I've owned (M3, Sunday, 08 Turner DHR, TR450) and ridden (v10, legend, morewood, M6, M9, Demo, Glory, 951, 303R, ****tons - pretty much everything) in the last 5 years - the most 'lively' frame in terms of being poppy, easy to transfer lines on and generally easy to move about, was definitely the 08 round tube DHR. I've had multiple shocks in every frame I've owned. DHX 5.0, Roco, Vivid, Roco Air, DHX Air and RC4. If you want lively - track down the DHR. The TR450 was also pretty good, but still not as good IMO. There are other bikes out there, but they trade off too much suspension performance to get a lively feel.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
Legend is pretty linear and waay more rearward than the demo plus has a much longer CS. The differance in livelyness even in the same settings between a demo and a legend is huge. Susp wise Legend and Demo are quite far away from each other.
Also from your posts you just seem not to sensitive to suspension differances. That may be the case why you think they are similar both on papier and in real life.
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Why not just get a revalve on the rear shock?
An Elka will let you get away with running less rebound as they are more heavily damped deep in the stroke.
I went from a Corsair Maelstrom with an Elka to a Nicolai Ion with a Bos, even though the Corsair was heavy and had a rearward axle path it still felt quite poppy and when it ran I liked how it felt.
The corsair was a medium my Nicolai is a large and to set my Nicolai up to have the same lively poppy feel it will buck you on a bigger hit. That being said having the Nicolai set correctly is nicer and more stable to jump than the Corsair you just hit it faster and stay low, I have now grown to hate the poppy feel of the Corsair, I don't really think I can give my suspension feel any sort of name other than neutral.
So I'd keep away from the Ion if you want poppy.
Have you tried the lady friends bike on the jumps, is a second bike an option?
An Elka will let you get away with running less rebound as they are more heavily damped deep in the stroke.
I went from a Corsair Maelstrom with an Elka to a Nicolai Ion with a Bos, even though the Corsair was heavy and had a rearward axle path it still felt quite poppy and when it ran I liked how it felt.
The corsair was a medium my Nicolai is a large and to set my Nicolai up to have the same lively poppy feel it will buck you on a bigger hit. That being said having the Nicolai set correctly is nicer and more stable to jump than the Corsair you just hit it faster and stay low, I have now grown to hate the poppy feel of the Corsair, I don't really think I can give my suspension feel any sort of name other than neutral.
So I'd keep away from the Ion if you want poppy.
Have you tried the lady friends bike on the jumps, is a second bike an option?
Suprising. ION is longer in the CS than the demo but I thought the lev. curve was similar. It isn't also very rearward.
Yeah not really sure on that, since the suspension felt good I never bothered checking the leverage rate and all that, it's not like the bike is a slug off jumps but it is a long low DH bike, I have hardtails for playing around on.
Speaking of round tube DHRs, I have a lg for sale:
FS: Lg 2009 Turner DHR Frame with new DHX 5 shock etc - Classifieds
FS: Lg 2009 Turner DHR Frame with new DHX 5 shock etc - Classifieds
So since there are some suspension guru's in here. How would the Demo and the TR450 compare?
I just read up on the new tr450 coming out and it has adjustable chainstay's. They are adjustable between 17 - 17.25 - 17.5. Might be pretty rad to have an already poppy bike and run it in the slackest setting with 17" chainstays.
With that said though, that is still longer than the demo's chainstays.
Anyone with ride time be able to compare those two bikes specifically.
As for the old DHR's. I think I will have to pass. I have an understanding with my wife that I can only swap frames and use the money to buy another one. Thats why I sell often to keep up on the resale. I prefer my bikes are the current design and at most a year or so old if i buy used.
I just read up on the new tr450 coming out and it has adjustable chainstay's. They are adjustable between 17 - 17.25 - 17.5. Might be pretty rad to have an already poppy bike and run it in the slackest setting with 17" chainstays.
With that said though, that is still longer than the demo's chainstays.
Anyone with ride time be able to compare those two bikes specifically.
As for the old DHR's. I think I will have to pass. I have an understanding with my wife that I can only swap frames and use the money to buy another one. Thats why I sell often to keep up on the resale. I prefer my bikes are the current design and at most a year or so old if i buy used.
If you don't mind the weight penalty of the TR450, then I think it would be fairly ideal for you. I'm not sure how much lighter the new one is, but if it's 1lb+ then I'd consider it. In my experience the demo has never had a lot of progression (open to correction), and the chainstay lengths err on too short rather than being the norm - so I wouldn't use that as a yardstick to judge other frames by.
The DW DHR might also be workable if you want a newer frame, and less weight + better pedalling are bonuses if you're looking for playful. I'd try and get a ride on that if you haven't already to compare to the other two.
Beyond that I'd say it's your call really, try them all and pick your poison. Keep in mind how different shock setups affect liveliness, as they can mask the true characteristics of a frame (important when playing musical bikes with friends). You can also use that to your advantage once you pick one.
The DW DHR might also be workable if you want a newer frame, and less weight + better pedalling are bonuses if you're looking for playful. I'd try and get a ride on that if you haven't already to compare to the other two.
Beyond that I'd say it's your call really, try them all and pick your poison. Keep in mind how different shock setups affect liveliness, as they can mask the true characteristics of a frame (important when playing musical bikes with friends). You can also use that to your advantage once you pick one.
Does anyone know the weight of the Nuke Proof scalp? I am fairly certain that it is identical in design to the TR450..I wonder if it's any lighter?
And, where are you finding the info on the 2012 TR450..when I google I find nothing new..
And, where are you finding the info on the 2012 TR450..when I google I find nothing new..
Large frame w/out shock is 9.6lbs: Scalp Frame
see, here is where i think you and i just look at this in a different light....
this might be hard for me to describe so bear with me....
for me i prefer a bike that sits up in the stroke...i like to be able to just pull up and pop off of, and skip over things without having to load my suspension and then use the stored energy to assist me in jumping or getting the bike off the ground...to me that is a waste of energy....i want to be able to pull off of stuff with the utmost of ease and in a moments notice; if i have to bear down on the suspension in order to do so, that wears me out and F's me up....i often can't do it as quickly as i like....However, with a bike that sit's up in the stroke more firmly, i can accomplish those tasks more quickly and with less effort....
as for the first part that i quoted you in, for me, having a heavier LSC setup helps to keep the bike up in the stroke, and resists diving and wallowing due to mass transfer(body english)....in the fork it prevents diving under braking or in turns...in the rear it prevent squatting when i load the suspension or when i'm exiting a turn....my chassis overall stays very centered and predictable. In turn, once it hit the rough stuff, assuming the rear shock is tuned well and does a good job of separating hi/lo compression the suspension opens right up and takes mid size and heavy hits with aplomb as well....
this is how motos are valved...i know that's apples to oranges to some degree, but at the same time let me ask you this.....have you ever seen a picture of a guy on a moto with the suspension nearly bottomed in a bermed turn? i never have, but i see dudes on DH bikes looking like this all the time.....(no offense to rider or photog....both are super sick by the way)
WX8P7632 - ianjenn - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB
there's no reason to use 80% of your travel in a smooth bermed turn...
anyhow....i'm kind of rambling on and alot of this is based on my personal taste and style....just food for thought, and i'm curious what you think....oh, and by the way i got turned on to this sort of damping setup by an ex pro downhiller/suspension engineer who did tuning for the suzuki rockstar team for a couple years, and I felt a huge improvement in my riding instantly....i'm not name dropping, just mentioning that the idea came from a pretty valid source.....
IC
IC -
I don't disagree with you on those counts (and am well aware of a lot of what you describe there), but don't misinterpret my suggestions to the OP for my personal preferences and setup. A specific question about a specific requirement was asked for and that's where I think your logic doesn't really come into play.
A lively setup is not necessarily the fastest setup, in fact a lot of things that are required to hit corners/steeps hard will work against the bike feeling lively. My personal setups are usually damped reasonably heavily in compression (the only non-WC setups I've seen damped significantly heavier are buckoW and his boys from the alps, but his terrain requires it). I could not care less about how much pop I get from the suspension when ploughing into a steep corner, I just want to hit it as fast as I can without eating my tyre. Consumer suspension products often need firmer valving for hard riding and I'm a big advocate of that.
On and off I've been on Sundays for most of the last five years, in my book it's *not* a very lively frame (I suspect your contradicting experience will have been down to non-ideal shock setup) for the reasons I've already explained. I'm not the best jumper, but I'm more than familiar with everything you describe to get the bike off the ground - because once it's setup firm enough to ride hard, it takes a bit of effort to make it poppy and playful, a different style if you will.
But none of that really matters here! The question here was not "how can I use my body to get more pop from my frame", and neither was it "how can I tune my bike to stay up in corners". It was specifically about a bike that could be raced, but mostly just be lively and fun on jumps.
You might disagree with me on this count, but I strongly believe a leverage curve that is more progressive in the first 1/2-2/3 of the travel will provide more pop in any situation, with less rider input. A classic example - doing back to back runs on the Sunday with a singlepivot DHR (setup roughly the same) - I was instantly overclearing jumps and having to readjust riding style. I actually noticed this difference less on the DW-DHR, for what it's worth - likely due to the linear midstroke.
Thus I still think you're off the mark by saying the differences between frames are insignificant. Within reason, the frame and its characteristics play just as significant a part in the topic in question as suspension setup and riding style.
The key here is to differentiate between what is right for you and what is right for other people, something I still struggle with myself!
Udi
I don't disagree with you on those counts (and am well aware of a lot of what you describe there), but don't misinterpret my suggestions to the OP for my personal preferences and setup. A specific question about a specific requirement was asked for and that's where I think your logic doesn't really come into play.
A lively setup is not necessarily the fastest setup, in fact a lot of things that are required to hit corners/steeps hard will work against the bike feeling lively. My personal setups are usually damped reasonably heavily in compression (the only non-WC setups I've seen damped significantly heavier are buckoW and his boys from the alps, but his terrain requires it). I could not care less about how much pop I get from the suspension when ploughing into a steep corner, I just want to hit it as fast as I can without eating my tyre. Consumer suspension products often need firmer valving for hard riding and I'm a big advocate of that.
On and off I've been on Sundays for most of the last five years, in my book it's *not* a very lively frame (I suspect your contradicting experience will have been down to non-ideal shock setup) for the reasons I've already explained. I'm not the best jumper, but I'm more than familiar with everything you describe to get the bike off the ground - because once it's setup firm enough to ride hard, it takes a bit of effort to make it poppy and playful, a different style if you will.
But none of that really matters here! The question here was not "how can I use my body to get more pop from my frame", and neither was it "how can I tune my bike to stay up in corners". It was specifically about a bike that could be raced, but mostly just be lively and fun on jumps.
You might disagree with me on this count, but I strongly believe a leverage curve that is more progressive in the first 1/2-2/3 of the travel will provide more pop in any situation, with less rider input. A classic example - doing back to back runs on the Sunday with a singlepivot DHR (setup roughly the same) - I was instantly overclearing jumps and having to readjust riding style. I actually noticed this difference less on the DW-DHR, for what it's worth - likely due to the linear midstroke.
Thus I still think you're off the mark by saying the differences between frames are insignificant. Within reason, the frame and its characteristics play just as significant a part in the topic in question as suspension setup and riding style.
The key here is to differentiate between what is right for you and what is right for other people, something I still struggle with myself!
Udi
i agree with you on all accounts here, but i wasn't saying it's insignificant....i guess what i should have been more clear in saying is that just because the original poster's local bike park went and built jumpier flowier trails doesn't mean he needs to go buy a different DH bike to get it to be more "lively"....to me that's a complete waste of money....maybe not to him....alot can be done to tailor his current setup to ride better on those trails....the whole discussion just got drawn off track with all my ramblings....
The DHR I'd say. Its a hell of a lot more poppy than the Sundays.
What size Demo would you guys suggest for someone who is 6 feet tall? It seems like some people are saying medium and others say large. Hard to decide since some people who are 5'7 ride the mediums and say they fit perfect and other guys who are 6'5 say the large fits perfect...
i'm 6'0 and i ride a medium. i have sat on a large and i could definately ride it too, but it is a little long for my taste. the front wheel felt way too raked out and far away from me. if i was riding rougher, steeper, DH tracks for pure speed i probably would have got the large. Demo Photo Album - Page 1 - Pinkbike.com for human to bike size reference.
I'm 6'4" and rode a large this summer; it's notably too small for someone my size. See the second picture here for comp of me on the large.
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f2/i-rode-bikes-joker-today-245016/index2/#post3686837
Me too!
My observation: I think Udi and Ian Collins are talking about the same thing but using different phrases. And it seems that what Ian calls "poppy" I would call "chassis stability" or something like that... something opposite "wallowy" or "rides deep in the travel" or something like that.
I don't really see how ramping up compression damping would make something poppy. It would make it more firm or stable (stable relative to activity of the suspension... less active). I think of "poppy" as something that returns energy rather than dampening it.
But what do I know... I'm just a guy who posts provocative stuff to stimulate discussion... or argument. For all you know, I don't even know how to ride a bicycle!
How is the clearence between your kneeprotector and the fork`s top crown while paddeling hard? I`m on the large side of 6,1 and can´t decide betwenn large and med.
im narrowing it down to either a DHR or a demo next season. not my thread, but thanks for a good discussion in here.
I feel the same way, but I think you hit the nail on the head with that last bit. Most people would tune around small nuances, but if you have the means to get exactly what you want then why not?
No, the singlepivot DHR like toodles said (his bike actually). I thought that was really obvious but I guess not haha - anyway my point was, put the same amount of body language into a livelier bike (and/or setup) and you will get more airtime for a given amount of input, or the same airtime for less input.
All that said, I love the Sunday and feel like I can ride faster on it - and funnily enough toodles just bought one too. He's probably more qualified to comment since he's owned a TR450 as well.
It depends on personal preference since you can allways get a shorter/longer stem. DM stems length varies from 28 to 55 or even 60mm so you should be fine on both sizes if you adjust it with stem length.
A person's reach is also a factor to consider which is rarely ever done. I'm 6'1", but I have a 76" reach. There's no way I could ride on a M anything again.
I don't know if this has been debunked, but I had my TR450 down to 34.5 last year. It did go through different stages
34.5-Vivid air, Minion EXO tires, boxxer r2c2
35.7-Vivid air, Minion DHF tires, boxxer r2c2
37.0- Double barrel, Minion DHF Tires, boxxer r2c2
I felt fairly confident i could have gotten the bike down to 33's or late 32's really easily. It would have been a touch sketchy, but possible. A person can easily get a solid TR450 down to 36. I brought a decently beefy to whistler that was 37 and beat on it for 2.5 weeks and it was amazing. I wouldn't worry about weight.
34.5-Vivid air, Minion EXO tires, boxxer r2c2
35.7-Vivid air, Minion DHF tires, boxxer r2c2
37.0- Double barrel, Minion DHF Tires, boxxer r2c2
I felt fairly confident i could have gotten the bike down to 33's or late 32's really easily. It would have been a touch sketchy, but possible. A person can easily get a solid TR450 down to 36. I brought a decently beefy to whistler that was 37 and beat on it for 2.5 weeks and it was amazing. I wouldn't worry about weight.
