[gemini2k]

http://www.penskeshocks.com/8900 Motorcycle Manual.pdf

Why can't all mtb companies do this. No reason they can't help educate their consumer and make ordering parts completely pain free. What a scam they got going.

 

[Downhiller]

maybe in galaxy far far away this is standard for all customers

 

[Bikerpunk241]

I was just having a conversation about that the other day, while I was rebuiling the fork on my dirt bike, all thanks to the manual........

 

[evilbob]

Perfect base for understanding what is going on inside. Very detailed and way beyond most garage mechanics but nice to know it is availabe for thier product. Would be nice (but expensive) to see them provide a performance product for MTBs. Just so everyone knows that manule covers all of the basic functions of shocks. What it doesn't cover is unique things regaurding platform technologies found on many MTB shocks which are unique to different brands. The parts are different but if you want to understand what is going on in your ROCO, Avi, Fox bla bla bla......read the Penske manule several times. Shock 101 right in there.

 

[MinorThreat]

Bicycle susp. makers will probably never do this because they know that the bicycling consumer has a much higher tolerance for company secrets, proprietary technology and all the other BS that seems to go with the bicycle trade.

Shucks, they still have a majority convinced that all of the 100-year-old technology that constitutes the average bicycle is beyond the grasp of the shade-tree mechanic.

I have been intrigued with Showa's invovelment with Honda on the G-Cross. Maybe I'll live to see standardized cartridge fork legs like there are for dirt bikes?

 

[bizutch]

you guys actually think there are enough employees at a bicycle shock company running around with enough time to put together that bohemoth of a manual...and make it legible?

 

[Wayne]

The manual that came with my YZF250 is about 300 pages long with the same detailled list of how to break down and rebuild your suspension (and everything else on the bike).

Its different mindsets with the consumers. From my experience, the moto world vs. the MTB world is very different, especially when it comes to dirtbikes. When you buy a dirtbike, there is zero warranty and you are assumed that you the consumer will be servicing most of your bike (not all, but some). The mechanic will go over many of the key areas to service and even provide you with some basic tools to help you out. Consumers know that and become savvy to what's going on pretty fast. That's frickin' awesome.

This is called responsibility. The only way you will see that type of trust put into the consumer is if there's a change in the mindset of consumers to take a pro-active role in servicing what they ride. Mountain biking is a long way from that. I've always been a proponent of little to no warranties on MTBs and the end user should be able to rebuild everything on their bikes. Other than getting custom work done, sending your suspension away for a rebuild is a complete joke. There's certain fork manufacturers I won't buy no matter how good they feel because you can't rebuild them yourself.

Yes, mountain biking has a long way to go.

 

[davep]

http://www.penskeshocks.com/8900 Motorcycle Manual.pdf

Why can't all mtb companies do this. No reason they can't help educate their consumer and make ordering parts completely pain free. What a scam they got going.

There are a few companies that do OK in this regard. R.S is actually fairly good with part daigrams and maintainance procedures etc. Cane Creek did a great job with the double barrel, best i have seen in the mtb world.
On the opposite end, look at the Rocco (or any marz product). It is outright advertised as 'user seviceable' yet you can not even find the oil weight recomendation...absolutely pathetic!!

In the end, if people keep buying mtb items without tech info and accepting the idea that they are too dumb to work on such 'high tech' items, that is what the companies will keep on selling, it is much easier for them. Money talks.

 

[DH biker]

This just may be my longest post ever but...

[Rant]
I agree with what this whole topic is about; I rebuilt my dirtbike's fork with the help of a manual. They not only tell you step-by-step how to do EVERYTHING, but they also give you the part/by part view with part numbers in case you need to order the parts.

Do shops get the good manuals or something in the MTB world? Anyone who works for a shop want to send me a .pdf file for a 66RC?

Marzocchi's manuals used to actually be pretty good... but then they got into all the "liability" stuff of "If Joe Schmo reads or manual then messes up his fork or himself using our fork which he fixed according to our manual, we could be screwed."

Personally I would pay money to Marzocchi to include a good manual with their fork say an extra $10 on MSRP or $10 to get one direct from Marzocchi... (better yet, why not just put actually manuals on their website)?

I know it sounds like I am ragging on Marzocchi, but it is a pain to have to call them and try to explain what part you need when it is something like a little washer deep in the HSCV cartridge...?

Now for some old quotes and some new responses:

Originally posted by Toshi
this seems pretty simple: joe schmoe pulls his fork apart, and "following the manual" (but really not) puts it back with, say, crown bolts undone on his pre-2001 z1, crashes, breaks his neck. family is distraught and Marzocchi gets sued. sucks but it could well happen in the us.

It could and has happened....

As far as the info in the owner's manual, does the manual in a new car tell you how to rebuild the engine?

Brian

Okay, but what about the manual that you can buy aftermarket for a car, that does show you how to rebuild the engine, bleed the brakes, etc? Also, what about the whole fact of the matter that couldn't the same thing happen without a manual, wouldn't it be more likely without a manual?

And and a response from Zedro

Originally posted by zedro
well, only if the manual is half-assed. The old manuals were better, but by no means complete. If you make the manual bullit-proof, you could prove they actually didnt follow it. Also some legalese could be thrown in saying "only authorized dealers may perform this procedure" etc, all while still providing good info for the non-morons out there.

I think they are actually putting more people in danger by witholding info, especially if there are subtle changes between model years where previous advice may no longer safely apply (like how all their torque specifications changed).

Bingo!

And one more quote I liked to explain the point I am trying to get across...

No, but Marzocchi forks always came with manuals detailing the internals of the forks and how to maintain them. For home mechanics such as myself that was a VERY appealing feature of the forks. Damn near as important as how they performed. I've come to expect it when I purchase a fork from them. Knowing that I have purchased a quality fork that I can keep running like new for a very long time with minimum down time. I have eight Marzocchi forks in my house right now. Everything from a Marathon to a Monster T. I have learned to maintain them all but the two new ones which came with the same useless manual. All I can say is I'm very dissapointed and frustrated which is why I started this topic in the first place. It's a sad reason why you had to do it and I think anyone who doesn't take personal responsibility for their actions needs to line up for a cock punch.

So how do Chiltons and Haynes avoid litigation from their manuals which do describe how to rebuild your car engine?

Mike

Moral of the story, Marzocchi, if you want to be the best (and Brian Peterson I know you might read this too so take note ) make a good manual. Because to a lot of people, repairing their own fork is like packing their own parachute, I'm not sure I would trust my LBS working on my fork, not to mention the extra money I would have to spend to do so. Isn't it more of a liability to have not have the information out there?

[/Rant]

 

[erikkellison]

I totally agree, we need manuals. I usually just jump in and figure things out, but there are certain situations where this can go seriously wrong. I would be much better off with a proper manual.
And you're right about a shop touching my bike. I would not let any shop overhaul my fork, I just don't trust them. There are too many incompetents working at almost every shop I've seen, and I know that it's my stuff that would get relegated to the newbie. And no, I don't care if I'm not helping my local shop. If they can't provide expert service, just sell tools and manuals instead. But of course, the newbies will still have a job with the people that take their bikes in to get the derailleur adjusted and the V-brakes fixed. For high end items though, they should be user serviceable if at all possible, and we, the consumer, should be given the resources to do it ourselves. That way, the people who are capable and need high end will be able to take care of it themselves, and the only downside is the occasional kid who doesn't know what he's doing, and wrecks his new fork. This of course should be his liability, at which point he could send it back for fixing. But we all shouldn't have to do that.

 

[DH biker]

I totally agree, we need manuals. I usually just jump in and figure things out, but there are certain situations where this can go seriously wrong. I would be much better off with a proper manual.
And you're right about a shop touching my bike. I would not let any shop overhaul my fork, I just don't trust them. There are too many incompetents working at almost every shop I've seen, and I know that it's my stuff that would get relegated to the newbie. And no, I don't care if I'm not helping my local shop. If they can't provide expert service, just sell tools and manuals instead. But of course, the newbies will still have a job with the people that take their bikes in to get the derailleur adjusted and the V-brakes fixed. For high end items though, they should be user serviceable if at all possible, and we, the consumer, should be given the resources to do it ourselves. That way, the people who are capable and need high end will be able to take care of it themselves, and the only downside is the occasional kid who doesn't know what he's doing, and wrecks his new fork. This of course should be his liability, at which point he could send it back for fixing. But we all shouldn't have to do that.

 

[frorider]

There are a few companies that do OK in this regard. R.S is actually fairly good with part daigrams and maintainance procedures etc. Cane Creek did a great job with the double barrel, best i have seen in the mtb world.
On the opposite end, look at the Rocco (or any marz product). It is outright advertised as 'user seviceable' yet you can not even find the oil weight recomendation...absolutely pathetic!!

In the end, if people keep buying mtb items without tech info and accepting the idea that they are too dumb to work on such 'high tech' items, that is what the companies will keep on selling, it is much easier for them. Money talks.

I agree completely. the Rock Shox .pdf's make it damn easy to maintain the fork, but also cover things like converting it from x to y. Fox Talas maintenance video is insanely detailed and well-explained (partly 'cos those things require something of that detail. Manitou and RS forks are relatively easy to deal with by comparison).

Marzocchi has been angling for the 'stupidest brand in suspension technology' award for some time now. Part of the Marz strategy for keeping hold of that crown is zero on-line documentation. When marzocchi employees spout the line that 'we made that decision to encourage you to use your local shop for maintenance' i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[gemini2k]

you guys actually think there are enough employees at a bicycle shock company running around with enough time to put together that bohemoth of a manual...and make it legible?

You wanna tell me they don't have a manual they've made for their use with lists of parts and diagrams and such????? You think their techs just fix stuff from pure memory? You think they don't know what exactly what generic bushings and seals and what not you can use in your fork? Just release it to the public. Even if it costs like 15 bucks or whatever who cares if it'll make rebuilding and ordering parts easier.
P.S. what would it take, 1 suspension tech, not even a designer like 2 days maybe tops to write down a list of every part in the fork, and then scan some diagrams they already have. Write maybe a paragraph on each step. 2 days maybe 3 tops. I don't care if they dont spell check it

 

[DH biker]

I think so, but until I see all the drawings and can compare part numbers, I don't know for sure.

Brian

The manuals must be someplace, just not int he hands of the consumers who pay a lot of money to have a nice fork...

 

[zedro]

No, but Marzocchi forks always came with manuals detailing the internals of the forks and how to maintain them. For home mechanics such as myself that was a VERY appealing feature of the forks. Damn near as important as how they performed.

i was just thinking about this as i read the new manual for my Manitou Nixon Intrinsic....good gawd they tell you how to rebuild but i need syringes and probably IronMan patience to set the damn thing up....for my Shiver, as i think Kidwoo once put it, just start unscrewin' stuff until the oil falls out.

I will not ever buy a fork that needs to be sent away for servicing; if it does i'll sell it instead.

 

[zedro]

The manuals must be someplace, just not int he hands of the consumers who pay a lot of money to have a nice fork...

there were CDs that had a bit more info (like the old school manuals), and seem to be electronic versions of the LBS mechanics package. There is another version, you just have to beg for it (i dont think they sell the CDs anymore, not sure).

 

[Transcend]

you guys actually think there are enough employees at a bicycle shock company running around with enough time to put together that bohemoth of a manual...and make it legible?

Funny, when I worked at foxc, every tech had exactly that. You think they create the forks out of gumdrops and happy thoughts? No, they have detailed diagrams and instructions for the cheap labour in taiwan to follow.

 

[gemini2k]

Funny, when I worked at foxc, every tech had exactly that. You think they create the forks out of gumdrops and happy thoughts? No, they have detailed diagrams and instructions for the cheap labour in taiwan to follow.

Shiver me timbers, pwned.

 

[MinorThreat]

The manual that came with my YZF250 is about 300 pages long with the same detailled list of how to break down and rebuild your suspension (and everything else on the bike).

Its different mindsets with the consumers. From my experience, the moto world vs. the MTB world is very different, especially when it comes to dirtbikes. When you buy a dirtbike, there is zero warranty and you are assumed that you the consumer will be servicing most of your bike (not all, but some). The mechanic will go over many of the key areas to service and even provide you with some basic tools to help you out. Consumers know that and become savvy to what's going on pretty fast. That's frickin' awesome.

This is called responsibility. The only way you will see that type of trust put into the consumer is if there's a change in the mindset of consumers to take a pro-active role in servicing what they ride. Mountain biking is a long way from that. I've always been a proponent of little to no warranties on MTBs and the end user should be able to rebuild everything on their bikes. Other than getting custom work done, sending your suspension away for a rebuild is a complete joke. There's certain fork manufacturers I won't buy no matter how good they feel because you can't rebuild them yourself.

Yes, mountain biking has a long way to go.

I agree completely. I came to MTBs from the moto world where tearing apart anything on a motorcycle in your home shop was par for the course and a given.

To be fair, some of the documentation we got our hands on (factory shop manuals, exploded 3D gearbox schematics, etc. were not things the average consumer was really intended to have. But my dad was pretty good friends with the owner of the shop I raced for, so . . . .

 

[Wayne]

The manual that came with Yami is the same one that the shop mechanics use. That's just cool.

 

[bizutch]

Funny, when I worked at foxc, every tech had exactly that. You think they create the forks out of gumdrops and happy thoughts? No, they have detailed diagrams and instructions for the cheap labour in taiwan to follow.

but who is gonna go take Taiwanese lessons just to read a manual>?

 

[SprungShoulders]

...just start unscrewin' stuff until the oil falls out.

Words to live by.

 

[Biscuit]

This just may be my longest post ever but...

Moral of the story, Marzocchi, if you want to be the best (and Brian Peterson I know you might read this too so take note ) make a good manual. Because to a lot of people, repairing their own fork is like packing their own parachute, I'm not sure I would trust my LBS working on my fork, not to mention the extra money I would have to spend to do so. Isn't it more of a liability to have not have the information out there?

DING DING DING!!!

My sentiments exactly. WTF is up with bragging about a shock being totally user serviceable (i.e. ROCO) and not making the info available for HOW to service them.

I've had to resort to internet searches. I still have no idea what weight oil I should put in there, but I've heard 10wt will ruin it.


I think companies need to give their customers a little more credit. You can make all sorts of sheilding statements, or even require clicking an indemnification "check box" before viewing on the internet, but give us the damned info.

Nothing quite as frustrating as being a technically minded customer, calling the tech line, and realizing you know more about the product than the guy answering the phone. (this did not happen with Marz, but has happened with other stuff).

 

[Biscuit]

And you're right about a shop touching my bike. I would not let any shop overhaul my fork, I just don't trust them. There are too many incompetents working at almost every shop I've seen...

Ditto.

Real life examples from my LBS:
- I've had a debate with the manager that you CAN set a bike with disc brakes upside down. It will NOT ruin them. (why would I let this guy bleed my brakes)

- A potential customer was asking about suspension bob, the shop owner told him to turn the rebound all the way slow and that would take care of it. (cust apeared to be an average, middle aged rider looking for his first full suspension)

- Of the few people who went to the Specialized demo at N*, only one of them actually rode the new enduro. I asked if they had the opportunity and he said: "oh yea, there were plenty of them. It's just not my type of bike." (And your SELLING these to people! Why did you even go in the first place!)

 

[Wayne]

^ That's funny.

 

[vitox]

DING DING DING!!!


I've had to resort to internet searches. I still have no idea what weight oil I should put in there, but I've heard 10wt will ruin it.

im all for manuals, the more the merrier, the more detailed, the even merrier.

as for your shock, use 2,5wt. ive had good luck with motul. stock is some fancy shell aircraft stuff in case you want to look it up.

 

[Wayne]

This is the best thread I've seen yet by the way. Keep it going.

 

[gemini2k]

This is the best thread I've seen yet by the way. Keep it going.

omfg, my e-penis just doubled in size

 

[peachy]

all i want is for something that will make us understand how the equipment works. u can buy a fork or a rear shock and they are mostly valved/tuned for an average rider... myb around 170 lbs. but what about a light rider like me? oil weight change? oil height? shim switch? instead i've got a fork that can handle a lot of customization but i don't know how to do is due to the lack of documentation. augh!

 

[Kntr]

I see both sides of this. I would really like a good detailed manual.

On the other hand....

I think the main reason they dont publish manuals is warranty problems. Most people would attempt to rebuild their shock and screw it up. Then they would want it warrantied.

 

[davep]

Basic shimmed damper tech has been the same for many (50) years. You can find general info out on the web about suspension and fluid flow theory. Try here: http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/index2.htm
Start in the motorcycle sections for some good explination of how things work. The bike sections have some GREAT info about different oils and what is stock in your brand.

In general, lighter rider = lighter spring, thinner oil
heavier rider = firmer spring and thicker oil.

Then adjust to fine tune. Some companies adjusters change pre-load on the shim stack, but the majority just open and close a bypass port.

Changing the shim stack is a 'black art'. It takes a lot of playing around to find the 'right' combo of shims and it is different for each application. Most places that do custom shim stack work, will not tell you what the set up is as it i stheir 'trade secret'.
some Ohlins info http://www.naake.com/xstackmanual.pdf

 

[zedro]

On the other hand....

I think the main reason they dont publish manuals is warranty problems. Most people would attempt to rebuild their shock and screw it up. Then they would want it warrantied.

i feel the same way about education; the more people know, the more trouble they can cause. Ignorance IS bliss....

 

[Kntr]

i feel the same way about education; the more people know, the more trouble they can cause. Ignorance IS bliss....

Exactly.

 

[peachy]

Thanks, actually i just read and google searched the topic but still it doesn't directly apply to my fork and it's hard to connect the two. i don't even know how to get access to the shims inside the MoCo. I don't even know how the whole thing really works. how turning the "gate" knob controls anything. I could just pull the whole thing out and try to disassemble the thing but having a manual of some sort would sure help in lessening the chance of screwing up. Has anyone played w/ the shims in the boxxers? i hear it comes w/ diff shims when u buy the fork but mine didn't come w/ any.

 

[peachy]

i feel the same way about education; the more people know, the more trouble they can cause. Ignorance IS bliss....

no way! people that think this way are the ones that don't know how to (or don't want to) service anything in their bike.

 

[davep]

Thanks, actually i just read and google searched the topic but still it doesn't directly apply to my fork and it's hard to connect the two. i don't even know how to get access to the shims inside the MoCo. I don't even know how the whole thing really works. how turning the "gate" knob controls anything. I could just pull the whole thing out and try to disassemble the thing but having a manual of some sort would sure help in lessening the chance of screwing up. Has anyone played w/ the shims in the boxxers? i hear it comes w/ diff shims when u buy the fork but mine didn't come w/ any.

You most likely wont find anyone that will tell you exactly how to tune your fork, as they want you to pay them to do it. Funny thing is the tuning market in the US sucks. TFTuned and Mojo are both in theUK. The shim thing you will just have to experiment with, although I doubt you will need to, to get set up for your weight. You will learn a LOT and things will make more sense if you can find the time to take it ALL apart and see for yourself what is in there and what the adjustments do. Do you have this? http://www.sram.com/_media/techdocs/95-4311-775-000 2006 Boxxer Service Guide.pdf

essentially you have a rebound adjustment - you undertand that...

your external comp adjustment is a low speed adjustment, it filters out 'bob' and slow movements.

the flood gate determines how much force it takes to 'blow open' the low speed valving, making the switch to the high speed shim stack.

 

[peachy]

davep,

thanks. i have that PDF as well. i used it to changed the oil... but it doesn't show how to take apart the MoCo.

i understand the LSC adj (lacking the words to explain this better... like a sliding door that when set full open, the opening is largest = maximum oil flow). I don't get the flood adjustment though. how does it control this blow off of the LSC? the oil has only this opening to enter so once the LSC's opening is set, how does it get circumvented?

 

[zedro]

Exactly.

no way! people that think this way are the ones that don't know how to (or don't want to) service anything in their bike.

i REALLY hope you guys knew i was be sarcastic, right?

 

[Kntr]

i REALLY hope you guys knew i was be sarcastic, right?

You are correct to an extent though.

 

[peachy]

sorry Zedro. I guess i'm not that regular here so I didn't know you're the sarcastic type. I do all the maintenance on my bike and love doing it so it's very frustrating for me when a part needs servicing (or tuning) and I don't have the knowledge/service manual to do it.