[SK6]

Great reply. Apparently you've had a class on torts, but not property. Besides, we're not even talking about unforeseeable plaintiffs here - you were referring to situations where the landowner grants use of his land to a cyclist. How can the cyclist be unforeseeable? Have you even read Palsgraf? The issue wasn't that the plaintiff was on the property, but that she was injured because of the actions of the RR's employees. That case had nothing to do with property.

By the way, it's "you're," not "your." It's not possessive.

Oh, and yes, in certain instances we are discussing unforeseeable plaintiffs, insomuch as illegal trails being built. Unforeseeable plaintiff insofar as the landowner is concerned.

 

[SK6]

Oh snap! Ralphie got owned! That'll teach you to not be such a wanna-be paralegal.

Woody, getting owned by someone who calls themselves dh_dirt_diva is like, WAY COOL!!!!


:love: :love: :love: :love:

 

[mud'n'sweat]

Woody, getting owned by someone who calls themselves dh_dirt_diva is like, WAY COOL!!!!

Can't say I'd complain about getting owned by a DH Dirt Diva either!

 

[KD1569]

Couldn't the defense of contributory negligence be applied to such a case?? In terms of the owner of the property that has the TFTs built on it??

Not a lawyer.....


But a cyclist


KD1569

 

[HotButterToppin]

rediculous - ridiculous

I'd like to refer you to Glass Houses v. Rocks

 

[KD1569]

With regard to tort law: In MD there is the law of contributory negligence, which means that if the "victim" (cyclist) is 1% at fault they can collect nothing. I.e. if the cyclist decides to "freeride" the log in the park and looses his balance due to his own lack of skill and falls and injures himself, he can collect nothing if he is 1% at fault (decided to ride the dangerous log in the first place). In VA I believe there is the law of comparative negligence which means that if the cyclist's lack of skill is 20% the reason that he fell, and the organization is responsible for 80% due to negligently placed "TTF" and the amount of damages are $100 then the organization may be liable for up to $80 of the "victim/cyclist's" damages. That is of course is assuming that the "victim/cyclist" can break through sovereign immunity! Any questions?

In either jurisdiction, lawyer can draft around most instances of liability. My personal opinion is that this a case of politics, but who knows....

 

[Zilla]

Sorry, the last post was by me not KD1569 who was last logged in on my computer!!!

 

[corey_rideDC]

mmmmm... torte

wait, what?

 

[Matt H]

To interject a little bit, I know for a fact that much of the issue in regard to trails and TTF's falls under the issue of liability. Basic Tort law states that all landowners, private or otherwise have an inherent duty to public safety as a whole. This also involves quite a bit a liability.

if a land owner says you can build stunts and someone gets hurt, the landowner, regardless of permission and even a waiver, is responsible to the injured party. Yes we are all aware of the fact that there are inherent risks, and and assumption of risk is a term used, it still does not protect the landowner from being liable.

it's a long legal discussion, but that's about it in a a nutshell.

I'm having a very difficult time understanding this....
-Ski resorts have been open for decades, and to the best of my knowledge they are not liable for injuries or deaths occurring on the slopes (if they were I think the ski industry would be dead by now...ACL surgeries alone would add up to billions).

-Skate parks have been open for decades, how do they limit their liability?

-There are tennis courts everywhere, on municipal or state property, open to the public. When we were kids, there was one across the street from our school, and we would ride our bikes, rollerblade, skateboard all the time. I could write a small novel just consisting of the trips to the ER from that tennis court by me and a few others. I don't recall any liability on the town's behalf or any lawsuit taking place.

-Winter hikers (particularly up north, out west), hike trails, set up camp and die in the night due to hypothermia. I don't recall any mention of state or federal reimbursement to those hiker's families.

-Equestrians are anything but safe, mounted atop an animal that has a mind of it's own despite it's percieved level of obedience, that weighs 1/2 ton. They ride the same trails we do.

Seems to me the only time the landowner gets antsy about what happens on his/her property is if it has anything to do with two wheels and a seat...unless I'm missing something here. I can post all day about the crazy stuff I do on a snowboard, skis, skateboard, rollerblades, or on foot, as long as I wasn't trespassing....once I mention a bike, it becomes taboo.

Help me out here.

 

[spacemanspiff06]

In a nutshell, the local club, whose membership is primarily XC riders, speaks out against unauthorized trails and TTFs (as does IMBA). Add to that, TTFs being removed from a local park in the past by the club at the request of land managers. Stir in some TTFs being removed at a place near DC by God knows who, and you end up with a general animosity toward the club and XC riders in general.

The fight usually goes along the lines of one accusing the other of tearing stuff down, the other complaining that the TTFs jeopardize access for all, etc. Essentially everyone really just wants to ride their way. Recently, the local club has added a FR forum to their website. Hopefully, things can be ironed out.

so you build the TTF with a puss-out line around it. or have the TTF be slightly off the trail...
we've been droping some in just off the trail on some of the trails at carvins cove. just little foot tall shallow kickers in spots that don't make much erosion. the main line of the trail goes stright and you dodge to the side to hit it. they have been up for 2+ months now with 0 complants.
heck there are ladders over logs that have been up for over a year, they're built up well enough that horses can go over.

 

[Tattooo]

I'm having a very difficult time understanding this....
-Ski resorts have been open for decades, and to the best of my knowledge they are not liable for injuries or deaths occurring on the slopes (if they were I think the ski industry would be dead by now...ACL surgeries alone would add up to billions).

Ski resorts have a limited amount of protection under the "Skier's responsibility code," but in truth it isn't very much. The protect themselves via things like ski patrol, which more then anything else is a good will gesture. However, if you look at the history of places like Lake Tahoe, many resorts have been forced to either shut down their terrain parks or to limit the challenge of them to the point that any kook from the Bay Area can come up in their scotchguard jeans and ski. Many resorts have been sued, and have lost. They have much better insurance then is commercially obtainable for most of us due to a higher operational budget. Simply, money talks and BS walks.

-Skate parks have been open for decades, how do they limit their liability?

Helmet requirements for one thing. Try to get mandatory helmet and pad rules on a fed maintained/owed/authorized trail. It just won't happen.

-There are tennis courts everywhere, on municipal or state property, open to the public. When we were kids, there was one across the street from our school, and we would ride our bikes, rollerblade, skateboard all the time. I could write a small novel just consisting of the trips to the ER from that tennis court by me and a few others. I don't recall any liability on the town's behalf or any lawsuit taking place.

Look up "intentional misuse" statutes. You're so far out of what is considered acceptable use that it would be a hard suit to bring. Also, most municipalities now have caps protecting them under the law from massive suits. A smart lawyer isn't going to take a PI case that will cap out at under $1m. Just too expensive to bring to bear.

-Winter hikers (particularly up north, out west), hike trails, set up camp and die in the night due to hypothermia. I don't recall any mention of state or federal reimbursement to those hiker's families.

Again, see caps and misuse.

-Equestrians are anything but safe, mounted atop an animal that has a mind of it's own despite it's percieved level of obedience, that weighs 1/2 ton. They ride the same trails we do.

Contributory fault is my best guess.

Seems to me the only time the landowner gets antsy about what happens on his/her property is if it has anything to do with two wheels and a seat...unless I'm missing something here. I can post all day about the crazy stuff I do on a snowboard, skis, skateboard, rollerblades, or on foot, as long as I wasn't trespassing....once I mention a bike, it becomes taboo.

More then anything I think your issue here is perception. Also, you are constructing on their property something that if the court was to take a look at and then apply to the landowner the "known or should have known" standard.

Long story short, god, landowners and the law hate you, your bike, and your bad attitude. Now get in line young man!

Help me out here.

 

[Tattooo]

so you build the TTF with a puss-out line around it. or have the TTF be slightly off the trail...
we've been droping some in just off the trail on some of the trails at carvins cove. just little foot tall shallow kickers in spots that don't make much erosion. the main line of the trail goes stright and you dodge to the side to hit it. they have been up for 2+ months now with 0 complants.
heck there are ladders over logs that have been up for over a year, they're built up well enough that horses can go over.

This is what we were forced to do for a long time in New Orleans. Then we took it to the Army Corps of Engineers (where our trail was) and took soild designs for things like bigger, off the trail line drops, or big teeters with puss out lines to keep those who ain't got the skill off of them.

MORE is a lot like who I rode with in New Orleans. What happened to get things of a more Freeride nature going was guys talking about it, heckling the guys who were weight weenie XC guys as pussies, and then ever so occasionally going over the line and just doing things. However, it is worth noting that what helped more then anything was getting the Kona/IMBA freeride grant. If that horrid bitch Katrina wouldn't have hit there would now be a full new DJ park, along with four wooden trail elements going up on the trial. It will happen in the future due to dedicated dumbasses like me, but the timeline has been pushed.

Keep forcing your agenda, call people out for being pansy asses, and you'll be amazed by how far you can get by just being a bit of a persistant asshole...