[Ted Wojcik]

Click here to read the original Monkey Butt brainstorming and development thread.

Here is the Monkey Butt in it's finished form. Thanks to all who took the time to give an opinion on what this bike should be. I was surprised by a number of posts that said slow, steady handling was a trait that attracted many riders to the whole 29er revolution. I must admit that this bike is designed to be a bit more New England single track oriented. The head angle is a little steeper than some others, a little more than 72 and the bottom bracket is a little higher. It should be better in the rooty, rutty areas of the Northeast. It will be going to some riders in Central Connecticut for road (trail) testing. We will see how it came out.

I'll give you a run down of features that set it apart from a lot of other bikes. It is built with Paragon Slider drop-outs which will allow chainstay length to be as short as possible and still clear the front dérailleur's cable linkage. The actual stay length is determined by tire size. I also made the dérailleur's cable stops removable so those who like a single speed can remove the "warts" when riding without all the gears. The frame is powdercoated black for durability and easy touch up. The components include Mavic C29SSMax wheels, (Thanks to Sean Sullivan at Mavic USA) Shimano XT rear derailleur, XT E-type front dérailleur, XT dual control shfters, XT disc brakes, LX crank and B.B. Sram PC 991 chain, XT cassette, Race Face Deus headset, Thompson Elite stem, Thompson Elite seatpost, Race Face XC riser bar, ODI grips, WTB saddle, and Maxxis Ignitor tires. The fork is a FOX 29er fork with 80mm travel that I cannot buy direct from Fox because Fox has an agreement with Fischer for exclusive availability as a manufacturer. I had to get it from a local Bike Shop. Thanks to John Gromek owner of Exeter Cycles for helping with the fork.

I am currently taking orders and the frame is available in small, medium, large and extra large. Full custom is $150 option. My shop is a custom frame shop so I will build just about anything that is safe. Take a look at the photos and let me know what you think.

 

[MMcG]

Mighty Nice Ted.

The Central CT Test Pilots are lining up and are ready to ride "The Butt" and provide you and the rest of the 29er Monkeys with their ride reports and input! It looks like it'll be quite a nimble 29er that's for sure. Looking forward to finding out soon.

 

[MMcG]

Oh Yeah - Ted - Any idea of the fully built weight? And what about the weight of the frame only? Did you do any weighing?

 

[Ted Wojcik]

I did not weigh the bike or frame

 

[sikocycles]

Specs on the XL?

 

[greenchris]

yes, specs on the xl would be great...
Ted- that frame looks sick. congrats on the great build/idea...

 

[Ted Wojcik]

The frame weighs 3.9 lbs and the complete bike weighs 25.8lbs.

Ted

 

[BadDNA]

I can't wait to give this one a spin.

 

[MMcG]

Ted - this first ever Monkey Butt - what size would you equate it to? Would this fall into the Medium category with the 17" ST and approximately 24" effective TT?

 

[Aktion]

Ted - this first ever Monkey Butt - what size would you equate it to? Would this fall into the Medium category with the 17" ST and approximately 24" effective TT?

Ted's busy in shop, but yes, the demo is a medium.

-Small: 14" /top tube 23.25"/ headtube 4"/ seat angle 74deg /head angle 71.75deg
-Medium: 15.75" /top tube 24"/ headtube 4.5"/ seat
angle 73deg /head angle 72.25deg
-Large: 18" /top tube 24.75/ head tube 5"/ seat angle
73deg /head angle 72.25deg
X-Large: 20" /top tube 25.50"/ headtube 6"/ seat angle
72deg /head angle 72.50deg
-16.85 to 17.75 chainstays on all
-2.250 BB drop on all

 

[MMcG]

Ted's busy in shop, but yes, the demo is a medium.

Those TTs are center to center measurments yes?

Info to be up on Ted's site real soon correct?

 

[sikocycles]

Wow the XL is real tempting. Nice numbers.

 

[Aktion]

Those TTs are center to center measurments yes?

Info to be up on Ted's site real soon correct?

The TT measurements are effective TT length and the Seat tube measurement is center of BB to top of top tube.

The site should be updated today sometime with the prices and sizes and all that fun stuff.

 

[MMcG]

I can't wait to give this one a spin.

Spin will be granted in exchange for a bottle of home brew how's that sound?

 

[BadDNA]

I'm sure we can work that out.

 

[MMcG]

I'm sure we can work that out.

 

[ByStickel]

What's the shortest chainstay length with a front derailleur ?
(assuming the Ignitor tires it's wearing now)

That front end is going to be razor-sharp! Don't expect anybody to complain about sluggishness there.

Congrats, Ted!

 

[MMcG]

What's the shortest chainstay length with a front derailleur ?
(assuming the Ignitor tires it's wearing now)

That's a good question - what say ye Ted?

How short were you able to go?

 

[frznnomad]

wow ted that is some quality frame you got there man. i havent seen much of your stuff but when i lived in nashville a friend of mine had his frame stripped of the cable stops and painted by you and wow you do one hell of a good job man.

 

[Ted Wojcik]

The chainstays are set at about 17.25" now.
Thanks for the kind words.

 

[MMcG]

That's pretty impressive - I was able to achieve something similar with a Karate Monkey using a pretty old Shimano front derailleur - but that was with the bent seat tube and this frame has a strait seat tube.

And this bike will have a much more trail bike friendly bottom bracket height.

 

[ssmike]

I was able to achieve something similar with a Karate Monkey using a pretty old Shimano front derailleur ...

There are certain Shimano derailleurs that have much lower profile linkages, hence the ability to potentially run with short(er) chainstay bikes. The tire clearance (A) dimension in Shimano's tech info is the distance from the center of the seat tube to the furthest point of the derailleur's linkage.

XTR M971, XT M761, LX M581, Deore M531: 41mm
XTR M970, XT M760, LX M580, Deore M530: 50mm
Deore M511 (the old ones): 33mm

The new M77X series XT front derailleurs have an even smaller A dimension. I don't have the tech document here, but measured an M771 derailleur at 28.5mm.

Even with all these dimensions, this is not to say that if you can run one of the 50mm derailleurs with a 17.75" chainstay length, you will be able to have a 17" chainstay bike with the M771 derailleur. There are other things that come into play with regards to front derailleur clearance like seat tube angle and bottom bracket drop.

 

[chrismac]

There are certain Shimano derailleurs that have much lower profile linkages, hence the ability to potentially run with short(er) chainstay bikes. The tire clearance (A) dimension in Shimano's tech info is the distance from the center of the seat tube to the furthest point of the derailleur's linkage.

XTR M971, XT M761, LX M581, Deore M531: 41mm
XTR M970, XT M760, LX M580, Deore M530: 50mm
Deore M511 (the old ones): 33mm

The new M77X series XT front derailleurs have an even smaller A dimension. I don't have the tech document here, but measured an M771 derailleur at 28.5mm.

Even with all these dimensions, this is not to say that if you can run one of the 50mm derailleurs with a 17.75" chainstay length, you will be able to have a 17" chainstay bike with the M771 derailleur. There are other things that come into play with regards to front derailleur clearance like seat tube angle and bottom bracket drop.

so this is a new xt derailleur.. as in '08.. readily available? do you think these changers are getting modified for this problem.. or just a coincidence that just so happens to benefit the 29er deraillure conundrum?

 

[ssmike]

so this is a new xt derailleur.. as in '08.. readily available? do you think these changers are getting modified for this problem.. or just a coincidence that just so happens to benefit the 29er deraillure conundrum?

Yes, the 08 XT derailleur - as well as the other new XT parts - is readily available. It is no coincidence as Shimano is paying attention to the needs of the 29" wheel market. They met with other product managers at the 06 Interbike show to talk specifically about special needs 29" wheel frames present. You should have recently noticed that they introduced an XT 29" wheelset - very nice!

 

[MMcG]

I met Ted and his wife and their dog Daisy today and picked up the Bicycle. It is a beautiful frame. Got home and gave it a brief 10 minute ride up the road and down some dirt and back up again. This bike is Nimble! More to come.

 

[Aktion]

I met Ted and his wife and their dog Daisy today and picked up the Bicycle. It is a beautiful frame. Got home and gave it a brief 10 minute ride up the road and down some dirt and back up again. This bike is Nimble! More to come.

Great.

 

[MMcG]

Ted - did you have a chance to measure bb height or bb drop?

Oh woops I see a 2.25 bb drop - what would that equate to in terms of bb height (obviously this would change depending on fork and tire choices)

Also - what is the seat tube angle for this 17" frame?

 

[Ted Wojcik]

B.B. height relates to tire size. Drop is how far the B.B. is below a straight line from axle to axle. with the tires that are on the bike now, B.B. height is 12.380" without a rider on the bike. It will change with different weight riders and/or fork pre-load.

 

[MMcG]

Thanks Ted!

 

[donkeyWC]

are there any pictures of the bike with the rigid fork and will the ride test include feedback with it rigid?

 

[ottoreni]

Any riding done this weekend?

Really curious to hear ride reports on this frame.

Kind of confused about a few things.
The HA seems steep....is it based on an 80mm or 100mm travel fork? And what offset fork, Reba or the Fox, is the HA designed around?. Looks like it would be twitchy with that HA and the new the 44mm offset.

Also being 5'9" with a 32" inseam, the medium seems to have a looong top tube 24" ETT. I currently ride medium frames with @ a 23.5 ETT. This would drop me to the small, which seems to have a shorter top-tube, but requiring a longer stem.

Lets hear those ride reports...it is either this or the EWR frame for me, too.

 

[Ted Wojcik]

The head angle is a bit steep in comparison to some other bikes, but what I tried to do is make the bike a bit more single track oriented. There is a lot more to how a bike steers than the head angle. One of the things that must be taken into account is the rotational mass of the wheels. That is what provides the gyroscopic forces to add stability to the bike when it is ridden. In the last few years there has been a trend to slow down the steering on off road hardtails. I'm not of the belief that slow, sluggish frames are the best for single track. The long top tube does a couple of things, it makes the front center longer to keep your toes away from the bigger wheels and it allows a short stem to bring the weight of the handlebar/controls closer to the steering axis. This will allow the frame to have a light steering feel and reduce the pendulum affect of having all that weight out in front of the steering axis. The Fox fork has a 44mm offset and is 80mm travel. If you want to slow things down a bit, a Reba or White Bros. with 100mm of travel will slow things down. This is a very versatile frame, it can be converted to single speed without making it look like it has "warts" all over it, the chainstay length is adjustable to have an influence on steering, and fork selection will determine the over all characteristics. FYI, the vast majority of my clients have desired a 29er frame with quicker steering. The other thing to consider is it is "Ted Wojcik Custom Bicycles" That means my jigs are adjustable, you can have a frame made however you want it. This is how the readers of Ride Monkey wanted to see the frame end up.

 

[MMcG]

Any riding done this weekend?

Really curious to hear ride reports on this frame.

Kind of confused about a few things.
The HA seems steep....is it based on an 80mm or 100mm travel fork? And what offset fork, Reba or the Fox, is the HA designed around?. Looks like it would be twitchy with that HA and the new the 44mm offset.

Also being 5'9" with a 32" inseam, the medium seems to have a looong top tube 24" ETT. I currently ride medium frames with @ a 23.5 ETT. This would drop me to the small, which seems to have a shorter top-tube, but requiring a longer stem.

Lets hear those ride reports...it is either this or the EWR frame for me, too.

I'll add a few things to what Ted has to say on the Monkey Butt.

I'm 5'9" with a 30" pants inseam and this frame fits me well with the 70mm stem that Ted installed on the bike and the straight Thomson - cockpit feels good and comfortable but not too stretched out.

With the 80mm Fox fork with 44mm of offset the bike is very nimble - would handle tight twisties extremely well. Almost akin to an 29er XC bike. Yet it feels stable on the descents I took (although I haven't taken it through any super duper steep chutes or anything).

I would say that a 100mm Fox would also work excellent on this bike, as would a 100 White Brothers. If you wanted a front end that was a little less quick - then either an 80mm Reba or 100mm Reba could achieve that feel.

Bottom bracket height is excellent and the short stays are great for keeping the nimble feeling of the bike yet allowing for super solid climbing traction.

The bike is out on "loan" to a Central CT test pilot and I'm awaiting his feedback. He's owns a Carl Strong 29er, a SofaKing 29er and previously owned an IF 29er so his feedback should be excellent information to relay back to Ted.

Stay tuned.

Mark

 

[ottoreni]

Well it looks like I'd end up needing a medium with a 70 to 80mm stem.

What are standover measurements for the medium and the small?

The HA can be slackened by using a 100mm fork. My understanding is that would equate to roughly a1 degree slackening of the HA. Looking at the frame pictures I cannot make out if it has gusset on the underside of the down-tube. Is there one?

Frame sure is purdy!

Went looking on Ted's site, but don't see mention of the tubing used.

 

[MMcG]

I don't believe there is a gusset, tubing is columbus according to my emails with Ted

Not sure of exact standover measurements - but I'm right about your height and had no issues with standover. I was wondering about this myself before I met Ted to pick the frame up for our Central CT test pilots and there is a really sexy slope to that top tube. Standover clearance was not an issue for me.

The rider who has it now is about my height - I can ask him to measure if you need a figure quickly.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Ted Wojcik]

The tubing is Columbus. The down tube is a 29er specific tube that I get from a frame builder's supply called Nova Cycle supply. It does not require the use of a gusset. There are two plates silver brazed on the down tube to add some thickness for the the threads to secure the removable dérailleur cable stops. The standover height is about 30 inches in front of the saddle. Because of the sloping top tube it depends on where the measurement is taken. The small frame would have a standover of about 28.5. Changing the fork to 100 travel with 39 mm of offset will increase trail about 1/2", depending on how much sag is used in the setup.

 

[Ted Wojcik]

I forgot to answer your question about the head angle change going to a 100 mm travel fork. It will change by 1.117 degrees. 70.883 would be the static head angle before sag.

 

[ottoreni]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

 

[greenchris]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

http://www.tedwojcikcustombicycles.com/featured.aspx

 

[MMcG]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

Whatcha specifically waiting for regarding the Monkey Butt? More ride reports?

One CT Test Rider delivered it back to me on Wednesday. His thoughts were positive (with some comments that were base on his set up prefs - for example he likes really wide flat bars and this bike has low risers and he also runs his brakes "moto" style). Overall he was impressed with how it handled tight trails and also really thought the bike shined going up hill (great traction).

He's coalescing his thoughts into a more formal write-up and I'll share that here once I receive it.

I haven't had a chance to ride it since getting it back as we've been getting hammered with rain and trails are in no condition whatsoever for riding right now here in Connecticut.

Best,

Mark