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The Monkey Butt

Jisch

Chimp
Jun 29, 2004
6
0
Hey Guys:

I guess I'm the second MB test pilot. I'll put together a more formal review with pictures, but here's my initial review.

I'm not a regular here at RM (I'm a regular at MTBR, NEMBA and Bikerag), so I'll give you a little background - 6', 34.5 inseam, 175lbs with gear. I've been riding MTBs for 20 or so years. I mainly ride a 35# Rocky Mountain Switch with a bash ring and a Maverick Speedball. I also have a Titus RX100 and a C'dale HT, but they see almost no dirt time - though the Titus does wear the studs in the winter, so its the choice when there's ice around. I love rocks, climbing, descending and generally ride to have a good time. I rarely huck, but I love to get air. I ride 3-5 times per week with Case, Snip, Middlesex and all the other CT rides in rotation. I have ridden a 29'er exactly once before for about 25 yards.

Enough about me.

I met Mark last night at Case in Manchester CT, its probably the place I ride most often, given my proximity. He had other stuff to do last night so I headed off on my own for a 2.75 hour solo night ride. I actually had planned on it being a short "shakedown" ride, but once I started, I kept going (a bit of foreshadowing for your literate types). I did the standard night loop out there out to the powerlines and back, with a few variations thrown in - I came down slickrock. The "medium" is a bit small for me. It has a 410mm post so no problems with the legs, but I would want a large for a little more cockpit - I don't think putting a longer stem on would be a good idea.

Mark warned me to not approach this with any preconceived notions, but I know that the standard complaint with 29ers is slow acceleration, sluggish turning and floppy turning at slow speeds - I was on the look out for that.

I freaking loved this bike and found none of those faults, at all!

Pros:
Tight curvy trails were a blast
The handling is very predictable
Like my Switch (unlike my Titus) I often forgot I was riding a bike, it has a telepathic kind of feel to it
I did not have the pending OTB feeling at all (unlike the Titus)
It climbs very well, the 10lb difference surely helps
I felt no flex at all, the bike feels really solid
No issues with pedal strikes or big ring clearance
I took it up in the air a few times, again very predictable and easy to control - I quickly remembered how to land a HT
Accelerates very well
I did some real steep rollers it handled them no problem, though I'm not used to having a seat in my gut :D
Sluggish, slow and floppy are three words that do not belong anywhere near this bike

Negatives:
I have to remember to stand up more - just used to FS, some jarring hits at first
The rear wheel jumps around a bit on technical climbs - FS advantage here - I seem to be out of practice on picking lines :D

What I'd change (not frame related)
I'd put a 100mm fork on it, 80 is not enough, though I wouldn't want to mess with the geometry
I gotta work with the fork more, but initial impressions are not good - it seems to have very poor small hit performance - even after letting 20 psi out.
The XT brakes suck, they squealed all night and seem much less powerful than my Hayes on my Switch
The handlebars are way too narrow, definitely need something wider

So I guess the bottom line - would I buy one if I had the funds? In a heartbeat! If you asked me yesterday if that was going to be my reaction I would have bet you my Switch otherwise.

John

PS - I did stub out on a bridge approach and fell over into a foot deep stream. It was a cold ride out from there...
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Hey Guys:

I guess I'm the second MB test pilot. I'll put together a more formal review with pictures, but here's my initial review.

I'm not a regular here at RM (I'm a regular at MTBR, NEMBA and Bikerag), so I'll give you a little background - 6', 34.5 inseam, 175lbs with gear. I've been riding MTBs for 20 or so years. I mainly ride a 35# Rocky Mountain Switch with a bash ring and a Maverick Speedball. I also have a Titus RX100 and a C'dale HT, but they see almost no dirt time - though the Titus does wear the studs in the winter, so its the choice when there's ice around. I love rocks, climbing, descending and generally ride to have a good time. I rarely huck, but I love to get air. I ride 3-5 times per week with Case, Snip, Middlesex and all the other CT rides in rotation. I have ridden a 29'er exactly once before for about 25 yards.

Enough about me.

I met Mark last night at Case in Manchester CT, its probably the place I ride most often, given my proximity. He had other stuff to do last night so I headed off on my own for a 2.75 hour solo night ride. I actually had planned on it being a short "shakedown" ride, but once I started, I kept going (a bit of foreshadowing for your literate types). I did the standard night loop out there out to the powerlines and back, with a few variations thrown in - I came down slickrock. The "medium" is a bit small for me. It has a 410mm post so no problems with the legs, but I would want a large for a little more cockpit - I don't think putting a longer stem on would be a good idea.

Mark warned me to not approach this with any preconceived notions, but I know that the standard complaint with 29ers is slow acceleration, sluggish turning and floppy turning at slow speeds - I was on the look out for that.

I freaking loved this bike and found none of those faults, at all!

Pros:
Tight curvy trails were a blast
The handling is very predictable
Like my Switch (unlike my Titus) I often forgot I was riding a bike, it has a telepathic kind of feel to it
I did not have the pending OTB feeling at all (unlike the Titus)
It climbs very well, the 10lb difference surely helps
I felt no flex at all, the bike feels really solid
No issues with pedal strikes or big ring clearance
I took it up in the air a few times, again very predictable and easy to control - I quickly remembered how to land a HT
Accelerates very well
I did some real steep rollers it handled them no problem, though I'm not used to having a seat in my gut :D
Sluggish, slow and floppy are three words that do not belong anywhere near this bike

Negatives:
I have to remember to stand up more - just used to FS, some jarring hits at first
The rear wheel jumps around a bit on technical climbs - FS advantage here - I seem to be out of practice on picking lines :D

What I'd change (not frame related)
I'd put a 100mm fork on it, 80 is not enough, though I wouldn't want to mess with the geometry
I gotta work with the fork more, but initial impressions are not good - it seems to have very poor small hit performance - even after letting 20 psi out.
The XT brakes suck, they squealed all night and seem much less powerful than my Hayes on my Switch
The handlebars are way too narrow, definitely need something wider

So I guess the bottom line - would I buy one if I had the funds? In a heartbeat! If you asked me yesterday if that was going to be my reaction I would have bet you my Switch otherwise.

John

PS - I did stub out on a bridge approach and fell over into a foot deep stream. It was a cold ride out from there...

I thought it might be cool to add a few visuals of what Case is like for readers who aren't from New England or CT in particular - here are some good examples of Case Terrain - Can you say rocky? ;)







Thanks for that initial write up Jisch. I look forward to your wife's comments as well when she has some time on the bike over the weekend.
 

Aktion

Chimp
Nov 1, 2007
10
0
Thanks for the review Jisch.

MMcG, that looks like some badass terrain, looks like I'm coming down to CT!!!!
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Thanks for the review Jisch.

MMcG, that looks like some badass terrain, looks like I'm coming down to CT!!!!
Come on down! We could make a weekend of it. Maybe a Case/Grayville type of thing.

I'm surprised you didn't notice the FS bike I'm on in those pics. I betcha Ted could even remember who he built it for. ;)
 

Jisch

Chimp
Jun 29, 2004
6
0
I just re-read my review. It sounds like I'm a shill for Ted W. I just want to be clear here that I am in no way affiliated with Ted (or anyone else for that matter). I am really impressed by this bike, that is all... and surprised that I am impressed by this bike. I didn't think I would like it at all.

John
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Regarding the fork - John - instead of taking PSI out - I'd adjust the slow speed compression dial until you get it to where you feel it is working the best. I don't think lowering the PSI is the way to improve the small bump compliance on this fork - I think it involves adjustments via the compression dial on the fork.

Also - does your RM Switch have 7 or 8 inch rotors on those Hayes Hydros? Maybe the combination of a smaller rotor combined with a larger diameter wheels gave you the impression you got about the brakes. Just e-speculating a bit, but I figured I'd throw that out there.


MJM
 

Jisch

Chimp
Jun 29, 2004
6
0
yeah, I started by adjusting the slow speed compression on the fork, which didn't seem to do much. I need to spend more time on it to be sure.

I have 8" rotor on the front of my Switch, but 6" on my Titus (Titus has Avid Mechs). At the bottom of Case last night, I realized just how hard I had been gripping the brakes. I never get that feeling on my Titus or RM.

I'll let you know if I get something better out of the fork, I imagine I will...

John
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
yeah, I started by adjusting the slow speed compression on the fork, which didn't seem to do much. I need to spend more time on it to be sure.

I have 8" rotor on the front of my Switch, but 6" on my Titus (Titus has Avid Mechs). At the bottom of Case last night, I realized just how hard I had been gripping the brakes. I never get that feeling on my Titus or RM.

I'll let you know if I get something better out of the fork, I imagine I will...

John
I sent you an email with set up instructions tips via the fox web site - that should help you out.

In fact I'm going to print those out and have them for other future test pilots - so they can adjust to their riding preferences.

Cheers,

Mark
 

Jisch

Chimp
Jun 29, 2004
6
0
A few pics from last night's ride - I was by myself so all timer shots:

Top of Case Mt (every time I type that I chuckle - mountain, ha!)


I think the disappearing front wheel option is $200:


A bit of messing around near the top of Birch Mountain (again ha!)


One of the hazards of timer portraits... I tried taking this shot 10 times, this was the best... which is not good.


I'll incorporate these and more into a complete report.
John
 

Ted Wojcik

Monkey
Nov 5, 2007
105
0
kingston. nh
I want to thank those who have taken the time or are going to ride this bike. I welcome the feedback. There is such a big variety in rider preference in mountain bikes recently, I wasn't sure how the bike would be received. I tried to make this frame for the more experienced rider and I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the newer riders a little unfamiliar with the handling . The disappointment is the fork. Because Fox has an exclusive agreement with Fischer, I could not buy the fork as a manufacturer. I had to buy it through a local bike shop. I paid a lot of money for the fork. There has been so much enthusiasm centered around this fork, that I thought it was the way to go. As the testing goes on, we will try a Reba with 100mm of travel and a White Bros. to see how they compare. In general, Shimano disc brakes have been a headache, but I wanted to try a mainstream group. Maybe other pads will help. I'll try them later. Enjoy and lets keep the dialog going.
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Ted - I think the fork is going to be okay - just need time to keep fine tuning it.

I got a report from Jisch tonight that he made some adjustments to it after work this evening and it already felt better. So I think all it is with the fork is just taking some time with the various settings on it (there are several!).

Thanks for starting the thread here and for building the Monkey Butt. I've got two or three other guys (and gals) lined up for test rides and reports so stay tuned for more.

I think that Jisch and his wife will be a test pilot couple as she's 5'7" tall and can fit this frame as well. :thumb:

Cheers,

Mark
 

ottoreni

Chimp
Feb 24, 2008
9
0
Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

What is the chainstay length currently set to?

Umm, I'm a WB fork person myself.....so these Fox issues seem foreign to me.

Right now the only drawback I see in this frame, and it really is not a drawback but more a clash with my personal preference, is the sliding dropouts. With the experimentation I have done with my own frame, I am a disciple of short chainstays. I know I would set it at "17" and leave it there. The fewer bolts the less weight and possible hassle, but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

What is the chainstay length currently set to?

Umm, I'm a WB fork person myself.....so these Fox issues seem foreign to me.

Right now the only drawback I see in this frame, and it really is not a drawback but more a clash with my personal preference, is the sliding dropouts. With the experimentation I have done with my own frame, I am a disciple of short chainstays. I know I would set it at "17" and leave it there. The fewer bolts the less weight and possible hassle, but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy
Chainstays are at 17.25" right now fully geared with an Ignitor in back with plenty of mud clearance all around. It could go shorter if you went SS or 1x9 with this frame.

Also - I'd call Ted about the cost of a non-paragon frame. I know those paragon sliders aren't cheap and it may actually be less expensive to build with regular vertical dropouts. It would definitely be worth asking about in my opinion.

Cheers,

Mark
 

Aktion

Chimp
Nov 1, 2007
10
0
Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

....but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy
We would wave that for different dropouts.

Give us a call.
 

Jisch

Chimp
Jun 29, 2004
6
0
A bit more from today:









A few pics from a ride last evening behind my house:




Today I moved the seatpost down, let a little air out of the fork and moved the seat up on the rails so my wife could ride it. Its a pretty rare frame that will work for both me and my wife.

After getting over her initial shock at not having and rear suspension (pun intended) she too really enjoyed the ride:









... am I sold on the 29er thing? I guess I'd have to say I am. Its a thoroughly enjoyable ride. I felt immediately at home on the bike. Its stabile at speed, rails corners like no bike I've ridden before. I know Ted's intention is to make bikes that you ride in, not on - he hit it perfectly with this bike. Now I guess I'm not sure how much of the "goodness" is this bike and how much is the 29er, I guess I don't care.

After spending a few days with the Monkey Butt, I got on my Switch today. I was a bit concerned that I'd be disappointed with it, nope. It still an awesome ride. I guess it just goes to show there's more than one way to have fun on a bike...

John
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Nice pics Jisch!

Nice summary too! As long as there are two wheels on some dirt and some rocks it is all good in my book!

I liked your comment about how the Monkey Butt railed corners. Some folks prefer a lower bottom bracket height for cornering ability. It is cool to hear that this thing still rips it with a 12" plus bb height. Railing corners and no pedal strikes = good things in this neck of the woods.
 

Ted Wojcik

Monkey
Nov 5, 2007
105
0
kingston. nh
Thanks for the photos and report. We still have a snow in the ground up here. It sure looks like there is some good riding in your neck of the woods. I would like to point out that it is hard if not impossible to predict how a bike is going to handle based on numbers alone. Over the years, whenever a frame came into the shop for repair or repaint, I would put it on the alignment table and see how the numbers played out. One of the things that was apparent was that alignment would be less than ideal and angles and dimensions where not always as published. It became easy to think that some specs produced certain characteristics. The facts are that the characteristics were not always produced by the numbers as published. I have done prototype and development work for some of the BIG companies. Shipments arrived from offshore and the bikes in the box where not as specified. Do you think that 50,000 bikes were returned because of this? Now you know what you see is not necessarily what you get.
Have you ever seen this? (specifications can be changed without notice)
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,446
20,248
Sleazattle
Thanks for the photos and report. We still have a snow in the ground up here. It sure looks like there is some good riding in your neck of the woods. I would like to point out that it is hard if not impossible to predict how a bike is going to handle based on numbers alone. Over the years, whenever a frame came into the shop for repair or repaint, I would put it on the alignment table and see how the numbers played out. One of the things that was apparent was that alignment would be less than ideal and angles and dimensions where not always as published. It became easy to think that some specs produced certain characteristics. The facts are that the characteristics were not always produced by the numbers as published. I have done prototype and development work for some of the BIG companies. Shipments arrived from offshore and the bikes in the box where not as specified. Do you think that 50,000 bikes were returned because of this? Now you know what you see is not necessarily what you get.
Have you ever seen this? (specifications can be changed without notice)
I got a bike from a respected company that started getting bikes made offshore. It ended up having almost a 1" shorter top tube than advertised. It never fit me. Had constant back aches and ended up a frequent flyer OTB.
 

Bullitboyz

Monkey
Mar 12, 2003
371
0
CT. USA
Talked to Ted about this bike earlier this week after my initial ride..
i told him I tried to consider the frame and not the components, cuz most, if not all of my negatives were based on the components' relation to the frame.
first what I didn't like about the components:

1) the bars were REAL narrow... i realize Ted's version of 'singletrack' is a lot tighter than most trails are nowadays.. maybe they're still old-skool in NH, but here in CT, bars that narrow and placed that high equals instability.. most noticed when standing.. but the narrow width even hurt it while climbing.

2) the rims on that C29ssmax wheelset are super skinny.. i thought I was going to hate the tires cuz they're only 2.1 Ignitors, but I was impressed with the traction and cornering.. unimpressive was the lact of support from the rims, lending to a squirrely feel on off-camber rock slabs..

3) I think the steerer needs another spacer cuz the headset/fork was knocking any time the front wheel left the ground.. during the ride i pulled the top cap off and noticed the steerer tube was right near the top of the stem, but i didn't have a spare spacer on the trail to try..it just felt like the headset was loose the whole time.

4) I was fine with the XT brifters and brake performance..once i adjusted the reach of the levers.

5) fork wasn't bad. I want to change it to 100mm.. the extra 20mm travel i feel will give the bike a better ride height plus the steering was plenty quick and would still be fine with a longer fork.. it would also help to 'lighten' the front end and help get your weight back for the downhills.


overall it feels like a nice 'trail' bike.. one you can ride all day every day.. not a racer feel and i don't know if i'd use it as a singlespeed, but it WAS stiffer laterally than i expected... it wasn't 'boring', but it definitely didn't have a 'lively' feel.. it was really neutral.. which i suppose is what made it so easy to focus on the components.. cuz the frame was just doing what it was supposed to do...who knows, it could be a completely different animal with a different build.

That being said, Ted I'll take this frame off your hands when you're done with it! :thumb:

that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

(current 29er ride: Sinister Simon Bar.. SS/Minute29 20mm/Kings/Delgado,JonesH,etc)
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,224
4,479
Ted, this bike is SMOKING! Since I saw my first Ted Wojick back in 95, I've always wanted one...
 

MMcG

Ride till you puke!
Dec 10, 2002
15,457
12
Burlington, Connecticut
Update - I took the bike for a ride last Saturday afternoon before returning it to Ted so it can spend some time in Massachusetts at some New England Mountain Bike Association events and then I think it heads over for some guys at Mavic to put it through it's paces and for them to get some more time on their 29er wheels.

I really like the short chainstays on this bike. while climbing in saddle the rear wheel is tucked up nicely underneath you and it really propels you upward - a nice feeling compared with some other 29ers I've owned where the rear wheel always seemed to want to "slip out" a bit sort of defeating that whole idea that the bigger wheel provides more traction argument. Not so with the Monkey Butt - traction was superb.

I also did some "playing" around on rocks and whatnot and found the bike very easy to "wheelie drop" off of natural technical trail features. Again probably attributable to the short stays and overall good balance of the bike.

Slow speed handling was nice as well (with some wider bars - it would be even that much nicer I think).

The bike provided numerous smiles during the course of the ride.

Cheers,

Mark